Can Christians lose there salvation?

He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels.  Revelation 3:5

If names can be blotted out of the book of life, then how can a person be once saved always saved?

Anyway, Jesus said we will no them by their fruits.  If someone is saved once, then becomes vile again.  We will not know that person by their fruits.  Are they still saved anyway?

Get with the program people.  Once saved always saved is a trick that makes being a "Christian" easy.  We're save by faith.  True faith that produces works not some fake once saved always saved faith. 

Just open up your heart to the Spirit of God and honestly ask if it is possible that a person could be saved permanently before they die?

Again, even if there is such a thing as once saved always saved, if you've back slidden, how do you know you were ever really saved in the first place?

If you lay your entire life down before God instead of trying to work God into your life, then you will be saved and there is nothing to worry about.  If you try to toy around with God... well, I'd suggest you don't.  That's not something that is worth risking is it?

Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments.

Do you love Jesus?

We can build on the foundation of Jesus.  If we build poor things, we will still be saved but only as ones coming through a fire.  But can we not abandon what we began to build and leave the foundation of Jesus completely?

Just because a believer cannot be snatched away from Christ does not mean that he cannot willingly walk away himself.

1 Corinthians 9:27
2 Peter 20:22
Hebrews 6:4-6

Not only is it possible for someone who is saved to fall away, if the person has received the Holy Spirit and turned away then there's no coming back!

I don't see how people could be tricked into believing this.  We must continue in our faith.

Finally, read the letter of Jude.  Carefully.  Why not use a modern translation instead of the KJV as well (though it says the same thing, it might be easier to understand)

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Jude&NIV_version=yes&NASB_version=yes&KJV_version=yes&language=english

Now I just ask you... those who preach one saved always saved, doesn't this give people a license for immorality just as Jude describes?  Yet he calls it a perversion of grace.

I know this has been sloppy, but man.  I guess people just want to believe that their once saved friend and family are still saved   I really don't think that they are.  And as long as you think that they are, you have no grounds for trying to bring them back to Christ, and they certainly have little reason to listen to you.

Again, even if there is such a thing as once saved always saved, if you've back slidden, how do you know you were ever really saved in the first place?

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All facets of "OSAS" assert that "the UNSAVED were never saved in the FIRST PLACE". But I have conversed with MANY who fully believed they WERE saved, but REJECTED it.

What does "BACKSLIDDEN" mean? Does it not mean, "sinning willfully"? What else could it mean? So, Scripturally, there is no such thing as BACKSLIDDEN but still SAVED.

Not only is it possible for someone who is saved to fall away, if the person has received the Holy Spirit and turned away then there's no coming back!

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Nawww, they can always come back. The Prodigal Son (Luke 15) is all about "leaving/falling, and coming back". Romans 11:23 is also very clear about this. Heb6:4-6, if you look at the Greek, only says: "They won't WANT to repent, BECAUSE (and really, WHILE) they are falling away."

Now I just ask you... those who preach one saved always saved, doesn't this give people a license for immorality just as Jude describes? Yet he calls it a perversion of grace.

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Which chapter of Jude? (Heh heh heh...)

Only the "Carnal Christian" view of "OSAS" thinks you can be "REPROBATE-SAVED". The two other OSAS beliefs, namely "Predestined-Election", and "Eternal Security", both hold that "an unregenerated heart AIN'T SAVED".

BUt I kinda lean in your direction, that if it's GOD who perseveres US, rather than US persevering IN CHRIST, there's far less motivation and effort by us in the persevering, isn't there?

I like Jude verse 21...



Great pomegranates, Batman! Did Ben just do a SHORT POST???

Rise,

Thanks for posting the link, I read the article. To make my point further, continued from my earlier post, I will need to go right at the statement of faith linked to the site. I do this only to make my original point that it's the nature of God that is understood first, not the word by word of God, but His nature. After reading the article I went to the statement of faith, it's a habit of mine. I have found that my disagreements really begin at basic levels. I am not attacking the statement but merely stating my differences.

The statement of faith gives me a clue, that they believe that God will judge the righteous and unrighteous by the same method and standard, by works.

from the statement of faith: (That God will judge the righteous and the unrighteous, rewarding every person based on the deeds they perform in their mortal bodies.)

I just don't see scripture that way. This is at the very bottom of how you or I will see this issue.

Scripture does not show me that we will be judged by the same standard. So, I can't accept a doctrine based upon what I consider to be a misunderstood nature of God in salvation. My belief: We will be seen "without spot" the ungodly will be convicted. So, the righteous and unrighteous will be judged differently.

JUDE 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16 These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
JUDE 1:17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

JUDE 1:20 But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21 Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

JUDE 1:22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

JUDE 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-- 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Jesus is the one that will keep me from falling and he will present me without even a spot, not one.

Blessings

[GLOW=royalblue]AMEN ELDERMIKE!!![/GLOW]

FOMWatts<><

I prefer the idea of OTSAS...Once Truly Saved Always Saved...OSAS does not take the work out of being a Christian, it simply states that if you are TRULY saved that you will have good works. Being saved and having good works goes hand in hand, because if you are a Child of God, GOOD WORKS WILL BE NATURAL TO YOU!

Works are NOT required, if they were we would be considered as "earning" our salvation, and frankly there just isn't enough work for me to earn that! Works will follow a Christian if Christ is truly in them, but if I got saved today and had no good works to my name, I WOULD GO TO HEAVEN! I would be placed spotlessly before my Creator, because of the shed blood of Jesus Christ, my Savior and Friend!

In Hebrews 6 the author addresses those that we talk about as being "saved but fall away"...it reads,

Hebrews
4-6 " For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakters of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame."

To have tasted the goodness of God and reject it is BLASPHEMOUS, and that is the ONLY unforgiveable sin. You can not come back from that. Does this mean that once you are saved and you sin again that you can not recieve forgiveness? HECK NO! It means that once you are saved, if you turn away from God and reject that HE is the ONE true God, and that His Son died for your sins, then you can not be forgiven for that, because you have already tasted His goodness and now you reject it. IT is IMPERATIVE to remember that God judges man's heart while we judge man's head!

God bless and keep all of you!!!

FOMWatts<><

Jay,

Is God sovereign? Huge question, isn't it?
Did you enter and the leave the Kingdom of Heaven by yourself, on your authority?

We sometimes have to put things in proper perspective. We are not the gate keeper.


Did God not tell you that He alone keeps you from falling? (JUDE 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from falling)

Are you giving yourself credit for leaving and coming back? Who is sovereign?

God alone is sovereign, He never let you out.

I pray that it's not guilt that allows you to feel that you just one day go up and went out of His kingdom and then just decided to go back.

Here again we are back to God's nature. God has the power to create life from nothing but we sometimes think He can't create it in us, as if He needs our help.

Blessings

God is not responsible for my leaving or coming back. I am wholy responsible for leaving, God would not cause me to leave, and although without God I could not have come back it still required me to exercise my freewill and choose to come back.

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You assume here that you left in the first place. Since sin was your issue, as was mine and everyone else's for that matter, the issue that separated us from God, your sin that was forgiven at the cross of Jesus, how did you use sin to get away from God?. God loves you so much that He gave His Son for you, to repair the problem of sin as a matter that keeps us from Him, but yet you found some way to go around this? (You see the difference in our Theology here?)

Remember that Jesus is knocking but he is waiting for us to open the door to let Him in, or back in, He will not gatecrash anyones heart, He waits for an invitation.

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No, just in, there is no out

Blessings

When Christ died, HE died ONCE for ALL. His blood covers all of our sins, past, present, and future. It is important to repent that you are a sinner, and when you mess up, sure you should repent those sins and turn and walk away form them, but what you are saying is that if you die with unconfessed sin that you are going to hell, and that is not Biblical. We are saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus, not by the confession of our sins. Paul tells us that if we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord we will be saved, it doesn't say unless you do not confess your sins daily.

When you accepted Christ you accepted justification and purification through His blood, YOU AREN'T EVEN UNDER TEH LAW ANYMORE! PRAISE GOD WE AREN'T!!!

Galatians 3

"1-4 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you recieve the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit are you now being made pefect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? ...10 For as many as are of the law are under the curse; for it is written, " Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the books of the law, to do them. But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

That is a greta chapter that I strongly recommend you read. Christ became "the law" for us, so that even though HE KNOWS we will fail without Him (John 15), He became that curse so that God would see us without blemish. So we are SINLESS in God's eye's if we have faith in Jesus Christ! CHRIST DIED FOR THE VERY SINS FOR WHICH YOU CONFESS, THE DEBT HAS BEEN PAID! PRAISE GOD WE DON'T OWE A DIME!!!

FOMWatts<><

Originally posted by eldermike
Rise,

Thanks for posting the link, I read the article. To make my point further, continued from my earlier post, I will need to go right at the statement of faith linked to the site. I do this only to make my original point that it's the nature of God that is understood first, not the word by word of God, but His nature. After reading the article I went to the statement of faith, it's a habit of mine. I have found that my disagreements really begin at basic levels. I am not attacking the statement but merely stating my differences.

The statement of faith gives me a clue, that they believe that God will judge the righteous and unrighteous by the same method and standard, by works.

from the statement of faith: (That God will judge the righteous and the unrighteous, rewarding every person based on the deeds they perform in their mortal bodies.)

I just don't see scripture that way. This is at the very bottom of how you or I will see this issue.

Scripture does not show me that we will be judged by the same standard. So, I can't accept a doctrine based upon what I consider to be a misunderstood nature of God in salvation. My belief: We will be seen "without spot" the ungodly will be convicted. So, the righteous and unrighteous will be judged differently.

JUDE 1:14 Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men: "See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones 15 to judge everyone, and to convict all the ungodly of all the ungodly acts they have done in the ungodly way, and of all the harsh words ungodly sinners have spoken against him." 16 These men are grumblers and faultfinders; they follow their own evil desires; they boast about themselves and flatter others for their own advantage.
JUDE 1:17 But, dear friends, remember what the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ foretold. 18 They said to you, "In the last times there will be scoffers who will follow their own ungodly desires." 19 These are the men who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts and do not have the Spirit.

JUDE 1:20 But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit. 21 Keep yourselves in God's love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.

JUDE 1:22 Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 snatch others from the fire and save them; to others show mercy, mixed with fear--hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.

JUDE 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy-- 25 to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.

Jesus is the one that will keep me from falling and he will present me without even a spot, not one.

Blessings

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Jesus specifically says in many cases that we will be judged according to our works.&nbsp; There will be a pecking order in "heaven".&nbsp; However, the key is that regardless of our works, salvation is dependent soley on what we use as the foundation of those works.

1 Corinthians 3:10-15
By the grace God has given me, I laid a foundation as an expert builder, and someone else is building on it. But each one should be careful how he builds. For no one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which is Jesus Christ. If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

So the question is, can someone leave the foundation of Christ entirely?&nbsp; I don't see why not.&nbsp; However, as long as we build on the foundation of Christ (regardless of the quality of the works) everything that you said is true.

So how do we tell if Christ is our foundation?

Originally posted by jayemcintyre
I really have to disagree.

Two years ago I believed in Christ's saving grace and I would often repent my sins and therefore believe that if I had died I would have gone to Heaven. hoever I stopped repenting my sins, Istill believed, but I didnt care enough to pray or ask for forgiveness. If during this time I had died I would have gone to Hell. Now though I am back to repenting and believing, I am once again saved. Have I commited the unforgivable sin, no, was I fallen, yes.

Truly being saved is no guarantee that you will nto fall in the future, it guarantees only that you are svaed right now

Your sister in Christ

Jay

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I was "saved" and even baptized in late 1999 but was definitely not a Christian "anymore" by early 2000.&nbsp; Now I know that I never was a Christian.

I'm not necessarily contesting OSAS, what I am contesting is any man's ability to determine who is saved.&nbsp; This makes OSAS a pretty much useless doctrine.&nbsp; It is a great danger to those who think they were once saved, and to those who have loved ones who appeared to be saved at one point and are not now.

Originally posted by FOMWatts&lt;&gt;&lt;
When Christ died, HE died ONCE for ALL. His blood covers all of our sins, past, present, and future. It is important to repent that you are a sinner, and when you mess up, sure you should repent those sins and turn and walk away form them, but what you are saying is that if you die with unconfessed sin that you are going to hell, and that is not Biblical. We are saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ Jesus, not by the confession of our sins. Paul tells us that if we confess with our mouths that Jesus is Lord we will be saved, it doesn't say unless you do not confess your sins daily.

When you accepted Christ you accepted justification and purification through His blood, YOU AREN'T EVEN UNDER TEH LAW ANYMORE! PRAISE GOD WE AREN'T!!!

Galatians 3

"1-4 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you recieve the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit are you now being made pefect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain--if indeed it was in vain? ...10 For as many as are of the law are under the curse; for it is written, " Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the books of the law, to do them. But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."

That is a greta chapter that I strongly recommend you read. Christ became "the law" for us, so that even though HE KNOWS we will fail without Him (John 15), He became that curse so that God would see us without blemish. So we are SINLESS in God's eye's if we have faith in Jesus Christ! CHRIST DIED FOR THE VERY SINS FOR WHICH YOU CONFESS, THE DEBT HAS BEEN PAID! PRAISE GOD WE DON'T OWE A DIME!!!

FOMWatts&lt;&gt;&lt;

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The question isn't whether or not Jesus' blood covers all of our sins.

We know his blood does not cover the sins of those who don't believe.&nbsp; The question is, can someone come to believe, and then later reject that belief and thus salvation with it.

I agree with much of what you said Rize...it IS dangerous for man to think that he is able to determine who IS and ISN'T saved, but that's not what we are discussing, we are discussing a persoinal subject and it's relevance in our own salvation. What I was talking about in the post you quoted was in response to a post about us having to confess our sins, and if we died with unconfessed sins, that post stated that we would go to hell, and that just isn't true.

Man has no good in him without God, and we do not have the capability to CHOOSE or REJECT God. He CHOSE us, and we are unable to reject that. I personally do not fully believe in free will of man in as much as salvation is concerned. God knows how the game is going and frankly if He wants you saved, then by golly YOU ARE GOING TO BE SAVED AND YOU ARE GONNA LIKE IT, lol. I don't mean it like God forces people to believe in Him, but He knows us so much better than we know ourselves, and HE made us, so He knows our hearts and knows when we are born that we are going to be His child or not. IT is very easy to understand in my mind, but I seem less successful in portraying the thought. Anyway, I undertsand what you are saying. God bless!

FOMWatts<><

If God chooses us, how can anyone be ****** to Hell?

I believe that God does choose us, but we have to respond.&nbsp; Yet God knows who will respond.

*brain melts*

Scripture does not show me that we will be judged by the same standard. So, I can't accept a doctrine based upon what I consider to be a misunderstood nature of God in salvation. My belief: We will be seen "without spot" the ungodly will be convicted. So, the righteous and unrighteous will be judged differently.

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This is technically correct; however: "In the Day of Wrath, God will render to each one according to his deeds; to those who by perseverence in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life..." Rom2:4-7 Here Paul undeniably says "judged according to DEEDS, those who do GOOD receive ETERNAL LIFE" There is no way to change Paul's words. Yet this does not contradict the premise that salvation is by GRACE, through FAITH, and NOT BY DEEDS---the deeper understanding is that the GOOD deeds display their SAVED HEARTS. The DEEDS do not save nor condemn---rather, the HEARTS that DO the good deeds are saved already, and the hearts that do evil deeds are condemned already.

But take note of Paul's structure here: "...to those who by perseverence in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality..."---does the PERSEVERENCE seem directed believer to God, or can you conform the idea that "GOD PERSEVERES HIS OWN"? It seems clear to me that volition is plainly indicated...

Jesus is the one that will keep me from falling and he will present me without even a spot, not one.

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I'm afraid this is not Scriptural. Jude 24 does NOT say "He KEEPS us"---it says, "He is ABLE to keep us; this perfectly harmonizes with "volition and free will". You cannot ignore Jude's admonishment to "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God ...to eternal life." Which is it here, volition or predestination? Volition without contradiction.

God is able to "keep us from stumbling and present us holy and blameless before Him"---but He does not do it apart from our own faith. And this also harmonizes perfectly with Paul's warning, "He has reconciled you ...through death to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach, if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast and not be moved away from Jesus!" Col1:23 Can we still deny that our volition, OUR FAITH determines our eternal destiny? Paul says "perseverence gains eternal life" in Rom2, Jude warns us to "keep ourselves IN CHRIST to eternal life, Paul again in Colossians warns us to be steadfast and not moved away from Christ.

if you are TRULY saved that you will have good works. Being saved and having good works goes hand in hand, because if you are a Child of God, GOOD WORKS WILL BE NATURAL TO YOU!

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100% correct. Excellent choice of words, too---it IS natural, because of our NEW NATURES; yet those natures consequent from faith, and we abide by faith.

And, once again: Heb6:4-6, if you look at the Greek, only says: "They won't WANT to repent, BECAUSE (and really, WHILE) they are falling away."

You assume here that you left in the first place. Since sin was your issue, as was mine and everyone else's for that matter, the issue that separated us from God, your sin that was forgiven at the cross of Jesus, how did you use sin to get away from God?. God loves you so much that He gave His Son for you, to repair the problem of sin as a matter that keeps us from Him, but yet you found some way to go around this? (You see the difference in our Theology here?)

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Unrepented sin is never forgiven by God; "Unless you repent, YOU WILL PERISH!" Lk13:3 Heb10:26 says: "If we continue sinning willfully after having received knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice ...but a terrifying expectation of judgment ...and fire!" James 1 says "Each is tempted BY HIS OWN LUST, which once concieved begets sin which brings death. Any way to twist these clear words? DO NOT BE DECEIVED my beloved brethren! Why do you think James said verse 16???

Galatians is an excellent letter. I wonder how someone can read the letter and miss the point?

"You foolish Galatians, who has bewitched you? Did you receive the Spirit by works of the Law, OR BY HEARING WITH FAITH? (3:1-2) I am amazed you are so quickly deserting Him who called you, ...for a different gospel. (1:6) You began by the Spirit, are you now finishing with the FLESH?! (3:3) It was for freedom Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery (Law). If you seek to be justified again by LAW, you are SEVERED FROM CHRIST, you are FALLEN FROM GRACE! You were running well, who hindered you from obeying the truth? We were called to freedom. Walk by the Spirit and you will not serve the flesh; live by the Spirit and walk by the Spirit." (5:1-7ff) Go ahead---strive to explain this in terms of "they WERE NEVER SAVED"---ignoring Paul's words, "you WERE running well, you began by the Spirit". And then strive to contend they never FELL, REALLY---ignoring Paul's words: "you are deserting Him who called you, you are severed from Christ and fallen from grace."

Don'tchya hafta be IN CHRIST, before ya' can be SEVERED from Him? Don'tchya hafta be SAVED BY GRACE before you can be FALLEN FROM GRACE?

The perseverence is from us; Jude says, "KEEP YOURSELVES in the love of God". Jesus Himself said: "By your endurance you will save your souls." Luke21:19

I know quite a bit about "Predestination"; and I still learn more about it. And the more I learn, the more I see its fabric as tattered and full of holes.

So many holes there isn't much fabric left.

I humbly apologize to those who hold the position dear---I mean no disrespect nor personal offense; you, and I, seek after truth; and truth is, what it is. It would grieve me for you to be angry with me on any of these words I have said---we are brothers and sisters, fellow heirs; and I hope, friends; and yet it is to the Truth that I must stand.

If we-who-hold-to-OSNAS are so wrong, please show us---as clearly as we have shown you the errors of "PREDESTINATION".

Can you?