Isn't this God's fault?

The thing is, this was all his plan, he wrote the script and made all the rules. This isn't about god doing the best he can when humans mess up his fragile plans... it was his story, his rules, his decisions, his attempt to save, his doom device and almost everyone gets killed by him in the end. You can't just tell these people to trust god because he loves us... when people start killing you that's normally when the trust stops.

In the NT people were struck down because they lied so god killing people does happen in the NT.

If jesus came to earth today and executed someone for sin, would we sit back and smile at his justice and authority? Would we praise him for his unquestionable verdict? Would we worship him as the person dies in fear and agony for his sins?

I don't think so, we wouldn't. We need to be realistic and stop dismissing these valid concerns as simple immaturity or theological errors... these are valid moral concerns, not word games. Ya know?

How can we expect them to believe that jesus will destroy them?

OntheHorizon said:

The thing is, this was all his plan, he wrote the script and made all the rules. This isn't about god doing the best he can when humans mess up his fragile plans... it was his story, his rules, his decisions, his attempt to save, his doom device and almost everyone gets killed by him in the end. You can't just tell these people to trust god because he loves us... when people start killing you that's normally when the trust stops.

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Well, that's when the trust should end, anyway.

I made a decision that any theology that makes God indistinguishable from the crazy ex-girlfriend who shows up at your wedding with a machete must go. No matter who's preaching it.

These things simply don't fit with the God that Jesus described.

OntheHorizon said:

The thing is, this was all his plan, he wrote the script and made all the rules. This isn't about god doing the best he can when humans mess up his fragile plans... it was his story, his rules, his decisions, his attempt to save, his doom device and almost everyone gets killed by him in the end. You can't just tell these people to trust god because he loves us... when people start killing you that's normally when the trust stops.

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I hear what you are trying to say. However, to my knowledge, the Bible doesn't really say that almost everyone is killed. I know the verses everyone is going to throw at me (kind of like stones?), but if we really look into them, the Bible doesn't tell us when or whom. we tend to make OT assumptions that everyone who is killed went to hell. But we don't know that. And yes, I know Jesus talked about the narrow gate, but still whle most assume he's talking about hell, we don't know that. He says that few enter by it, but the fact that He's says that could be a warning and admonission that causes many to repent and enter by it.

How many of us making assumptions have inquired of the Lord or done an exhaustive word study? How many of us have really tried to understand? Do we love Him enough to do that, or do we just want fire insurance? Not addressing any particular poster at this point, just asking the hard, but crucial questions.

OntheHorizon said:

In the NT people were struck down because they lied so god killing people does happen in the NT.

If jesus came to earth today and executed someone for sin, would we sit back and smile at his justice and authority? Would we praise him for his unquestionable verdict? Would we worship him as the person dies in fear and agony for his sins?

I don't think so, we wouldn't. We need to be realistic and stop dismissing these valid concerns as simple immaturity or theological errors... these are valid moral concerns, not word games. Ya know?

How can we expect them to believe that jesus will destroy them?

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Caught you not reading my posts, but that's okay. Here it is:

Originally Posted by Lezard Valeth
Probably not. But this conundrum is easily solved when one inquires of the Creator of the universe rather than his own mind or unhealed emotions, which sadly many rely upon.

So no, I would not trust somone who would kill his own wife daughter or son. However, I will any day in any situation trust One who was willing to be both the suffering Son and the Father who loves Him having to watch the suffering, all for my sake. That is indeed a sacrifice. You see, this is the part the mind of man tends to miss. God loved(s) Jesus and was not happy to see Him suffer or have Him experience separations from him (hold on, I've got the answer to what you're thinking, I'll get it. I got you covered. Well, actually, God has you covered--because He loves you!).

He didn't love seeing that anymore than Mary, Jesus' mother did. But Mary was only the parent. She suffered terribly but only as a parent. God suffered as Parent witnessing the abuse and dealth of His child and also suffered as the One being abused, and killed and all the rest, a similtaneous sort of dual suffering because Jesus and the Father are indeed One.

Okay, yeah, yeah, I hear you. You hear people say al the time, "It pleased Him to bruise Him." I too, got sick of hearing that very early in my Christianity, only to have a word study show me that this can be translated to mean satisfied, as in debt paid. Where have we heard that before? Don't you love the consistency of Scripture.? Even when the devil tells our minds we've found a stinky, it ends up smelling like a rose, The Rose of Sharon, in fact. The above stated verse, correctly translated does not in any way reflect glee, but rather a debt paid. A debt God Himself paid for us, in the most painful way possible, more than we coud imagine.

So just becuase you can't imagine it, don't let the devil turn it upside down. Don't let the enemy have your thoughts and try to convince you good is bad and bad is good. The Bible warns us of this. God warns us because He is good. He doesn't want you to fall into the enemy's trap. So don't take the bate, okay?

OntheHorizon said:

In the NT people were struck down because they lied so god killing people does happen in the NT.

If jesus came to earth today and executed someone for sin, would we sit back and smile at his justice and authority? Would we praise him for his unquestionable verdict? Would we worship him as the person dies in fear and agony for his sins?

I don't think so, we wouldn't. We need to be realistic and stop dismissing these valid concerns as simple immaturity or theological errors... these are valid moral concerns, not word games. Ya know?

How can we expect them to believe that jesus will destroy them?

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Those people weren't struck down for lies, though. Their crime was a lot more specific than that. They basically publicly promised x amount of dollars to the church (which at the time was for the livelihood of poorer Christians rather than the upkeep of buildings) and then kept a bunch to themselves instead.

What was the motivation for their lie? To look more generous to God's people than they actually were.

If there's one thing that God hates, it's people puffing themselves up at the expense of the poor and oppressed. That is evident throughout all the Scriptures.

This is in line with Jesus' stance against the 'yeast of the Pharisees' which does not enter the kingdom, and blocks the door so others can't enter either.

You don't stand between a mama bear and her cub, and you don't stand between Holy God and His children. Love is fierce.

maybe I'm not being realistic... we execute the worst of our own so why can't god kill sinners too? hmm. I need to rethink the death penalty, even its not hell.

miss-a

I did read your post actually. That was my response to you but seeingeyes got in first

seeingeyes said:

Those people weren't struck down for lies, though. Their crime was a lot more specific than that. They basically publicly promised x amount of dollars to the church (which at the time was for the livelihood of poorer Christians rather than the upkeep of buildings) and then kept a bunch to themselves instead.

What was the motivation for their lie? To look more generous to God's people than they actually were.

If there's one thing that God hates, it's people puffing themselves up at the expense of the poor and oppressed. That is evident throughout all the Scriptures.

This is in line with Jesus' stance against the 'yeast of the Pharisees' which does not enter the kingdom, and blocks the door so others can't enter either.

You don't stand between a mama bear and her cub, and you don't stand between Holy God and His children. Love is fierce.

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Nicely stated. And Ananias and his wife are a perfect example of where we tend to make assumptions, assuming they went to hell. They were made an example of here on earth, but the Bible doesn't say they're in hell.

seeingeyes said:

Those people weren't struck down for lies, though. Their crime was a lot more specific than that. They basically publicly promised x amount of dollars to the church (which at the time was for the livelihood of poorer Christians rather than the upkeep of buildings) and then kept a bunch to themselves instead.

What was the motivation for their lie? To look more generous to God's people than they actually were.

If there's one thing that God hates, it's people puffing themselves up at the expense of the poor and oppressed. That is evident throughout all the Scriptures.

This is in line with Jesus' stance against the 'yeast of the Pharisees' which does not enter the kingdom, and blocks the door so others can't enter either.

You don't stand between a mama bear and her cub, and you don't stand between Holy God and His children. Love is fierce.

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well even if the sin was something else... what about the scenario I gave?

miss-a said:

Nicely stated. And Ananias and his wife are a perfect example of where we tend to make assumptions, assuming they went to hell. They were made an example of here on earth, but the Bible doesn't say they're in hell.

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they died in and because of sin, that god kills the righteous too ( if they are in heaven ) doesn't really help god seem just either.

miss-a

The bible seems to say you have to be born again to go to heaven. We can easily speculate that extremely few people on earth had that happen. Hopefully its not that simple.

OntheHorizon said:

they died in and because of sin, that god kills the righteous too ( if they are in heaven ) doesn't really help god seem just either.

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This handles that objections (caught you not reading my posts again): I know people with those arguments. I don't argue with them, because as much as they need truth, they are also holding up their arms as if blocking a punch when the slightest glimmer of truth comes their way.

The bottom line I think is that we not fuel their fires, that we pray for discernment for if and when there is a time to speak and what to say should that time arrive. It's almost as though we are dealing with injured little children. You know how when a child, say, hit's his hand on a counter when he was having fun spinning around. He immediately screaches at the pain, then it wanes to a cry, and eventually, he says, "Bad counter."

People like blame. When we hurt, the flesh wants someone to blame. Who better than the One who created the flesh? But here's the thing. The counter was not bad. The Creator is not bad. The condition of neither is even the issue. And Jesus shows us that when the Pharisees hide behind their own skirts and call out from the crowd asking Jesus if they should pay taxes. And what does Jesus say. He basically says to them (para-phrasing here, work with me), "Don't try to outsmart me. I made you. I've got an answer you could never have thought of."

And that's the point. If I do respond to these folks, first of all I might do a bit of kind correction of the twisting of theology, but then I'd admit that I don't know the entirety of God's mind and heart, but the pieces I do know are good beyond any measure I can imagine. I might even throw in some of the harrowing trials He's brought me through and how that brought me to know Him and His goodness even further. And then I tell them that the only option they have if they ever want the truth, would be to honestly go before Him and ask. Because anyone who truly wants the truth will find it.

In the end, the answer we know is "Lord, you have the words of eternal life. Where else would we go?" But this is too much for them. But we must hold to it firmly, and not be afraid to ask Him the hard questions. He can handle them.

That's why I don't spend a whole lot of time with these sorts of objections or objectors. Most of the time, they don't really want the truth. Rather they are basting themselves in the lies because they have been decieved by the enemy into finding some twisted comfort in wrapping themselves in the lies. So mostly I kindly offer what I have, as stated above, and move on and pray. I think the worst thing we can do is get upset because they hate our God. But rather, we can pray for the day when they don't.

OntheHorizon said:

Reborn

Why does that statement stand out to you?
Most these statements and ideas can be heard from Lee M. Lee M claims to have been a christian and went to bible college. He use to use the name Briareos on this forum when he was a christian.

Miss-a

Thanks for saying so much

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... a thread about me?

OntheHorizon said:

miss-a

The bible seems to say you have to be born again to go to heaven. We can easily speculate that extremely few people on earth had that happen. Hopefully its not that simple.

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Respectfully, we have to take into consideration the limitations on our ability to speculate accurately, being that we are the creation, not the Creator, and therefore, do not have all the information with which to work. We don't know His mind fully. Shoot, we don't even know our own minds fully. So the best thing in these cases is to ask Him, to spend time trying to get to know Him and ask Him. And for the folks who don't want to take the time to find out about him, well, honestly, I think their objections are smoke screens, pretty flimsy ones at that. I don't think they really want to know. I think they are hurt, they're wounds are speaking, and sort of like when you try to reach out to help a ferrel animal, they reach out and try to eat your face. The best thing to do is love them and pray for them. I don't think arguing works. Agree to disagree--and hug them a lot.

OntheHorizon said:

well even if the sin was something else... what about the scenario I gave?

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If Jesus executed someone? Well, he didn't. Twice, in fact, he halted an execution.

Once for the woman caught in adultery, and again for the Samaritan town that did not receive him. (Luke 9:51)

It makes you wonder what would have happened if Abraham had asked, "What if there is only one righteous man in Sodom?" The whole place could have been spared.

Jonah had trouble with the fact of a merciful God, too. (He didn't go to Ninevah because he wanted to see the place get blown up.)

Or look at Cain, who, even with his brother's blood on his hands, asked for mercy from our God and received it.

Read through the prophets and you'll find that Israel's greatest downfall was always rejecting the poor and oppressed. That is the same sin of the Amalekites who refused to help Israel when she was escaping Egypt.

I could give a zillion more examples, because this same thread is woven continuously throughout the scriptures. Though if we are looking for fluffy-bunny-helpless-God or wrathful-do-what-I-say-or-I'll-set-you-on-fire-God then we can't see it. Jesus flat out refuses to sit in either of those boxes, and so does his Father.

Love is fierce.

miss-a

I did read all your posts and in the order you made them. I'm not arguing with you.

seeingeyes

well then you agree that if jesus did execute someone like he did from heaven with the man and woman who lied you wouldn't appreciate it.

what do you mean love is fierce?

OntheHorizon said:

miss-a

I did read all your posts and in the order you made them. I'm not arguing with you.

seeingeyes

well then you agree that if jesus did execute someone like he did from heaven with the man and woman who lied you wouldn't appreciate it.

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No? What if he struck down someone who was coming at your girlfriend with a hatchet? Would you appreciate that?

Stranger still: What if he jumped in front of her and voluntarily took a hatchet to the face for her sake?

This is our God.

OntheHorizon said:

what do you mean love is fierce?

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Well, I know you don't have kids yet, but have you ever been stupid in love?