Where Is Mystery Babylon -Not The Vatican!

May 29, 2011
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I'm just going to take notes down as I watch this video. I don't mean them to be biased criticisms against the film, but a fair amount I am finding out, disagree with the conclusions of the film. (sorry, if my post is long)

at least the first 1:30m of the video is factually untrue. Babylon had very little to do with the Northern Kingdom and the Southern Kingdom's fall into Idolatry. The Gods were Canaanite deities, Baal was not a Babylonian deity. In fact, Baal big temple was in Ugarit up in Syria along the Mediterranean Coast.

God used Assyria to conquer the Northern kingdom (and basically everything else aside form Jerusalem during the time of Hezekiah), and then Babylon was used later to destroy Judah.

Babylon was the method of punishment, not the source of Israel's idolatry

At around 2:31 when it says "in the east, to call something the 'mother of' is an expression of speech meaning 'the worst' or 'most significant'

that seems like a terrible argument,
A. I do believe that expression is not originally "eastern" (there is no source given in the film)
B. Using modern expressions of speech to interpret passages from over 1900 years ago will most likely not give you the correct understanding.

I suppose, I will just put a disclaimer for all the Bible verses so i don't have a super long post: Check the context to make sure the verses clearly point to this thing called Mystery Babylon and not about something else. many verses can be pulled and twisted to mean something that they were never intended to mean. I do read all the verses used in the film, but commenting on them all would make a huge post no one would be happy about :|

The biggest thing i can say is "look at the context" because they will help you avoid terrible, and stupid interpretations.

at 4:34 the film says Edom stretches from Yemen to Northern Saudi Arabia. I haven't seen anything that says Edom was that big. It seems to be roughly the same size as Judah or at most Israel as a united kingdom under its greatest height. Also, the film doesn't source this information. It might just a guess on their part.

Teman and Dedan seem to refer to parts within Edom and not countries outside of Edom, so, I'm not sold on his use of them.

5:23 ish. The film moves from "by the sea" to "surrounded by seas" which may not be a big deal, but there is no real reason for the switch

5:36 -Iraq has some large lakes one called the sea of salt. the ANE didn't see "the seas" as we did. note: Sea of Galilee, the dead sea. These are not seas but large lakes.

5:59 -Sinai is a word for Suen which means Satan. I do believe this is wrong because the Hebrew for satan is ha-satan (transliterated) which means the oppressor. I don't know where the film gets Suen from, or why the film thinks Sinai=Suen=satan.
the 'i' at the end of Sinai is possessive, so it would be "my ______"

Immediately after, (just want to add this), the film uses Isaiah 13:20, which the film puts [Mystery Babylon] in it, which is added in on an assumption that the context is talking about mystery Babylon rather than historical Babylon in order for that passage to fit the theory. (Historical Babylon is not on the Saudi Arabian Peninsula you see)

I noticed around 8:18 the film uses "wine" to mean "oil". Words can't mean anything you want them to mean. Even if you say "wine" is symbolic, it is never symbolic for oil, and Saudi Arabia is not the World's only producer of oil, or gas. This idea of giving oil to nations = whoredom has a really shaky foundation.

-9:43 the film says Saudi Arabia fornicates with the whole world and then precedes to only show a gas price of NYmex. America isn't the whole world. America isn't special or distinct. If you mean the whole world, the look at Saudi Arabia's affect on the whole world, not just America, not just the west. Basically, you cannot use America as a sample for the whole world. That isn't how things work.

10:25ish, no source for the Islamic world hating Saudi Arabia?
10:53 - I'm not Muslim expert but i believe they pray towards Mecca, and not to Mecca. a big difference.

I was surprised by his usage of the Qu'ran (good job?) but then immediately uses it upon an assumption, which well, was disappointing.

That Muslim prophecy about Mecca's destruction is interesting though.

I sort of stopped here. For me, I cannot believe this. It uses too many assumptions and some facts are just wrong. Moreover, I don't quite agree with the interpretive uses of the scripture the same as the film does
 
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HannibalFlavius

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Terrible video, I don't like it a bit.

I like you though!:p


When I first began speaking on forum, I was the biggest killer of Catholics.

My whole agenda was to disgrace the Vatican and its people and I was hated everywhere I turned.

At the time, I thought I was a great prophet of God bringing down the enemies of God.

But there did come a time when I became very remorseful for what I had done.

All the venom and hatred I showed to so many people who earnestly love and follow God.

I really wished that I could go back and find the thousand Catholics I spit on everyday to beg their forgiveness.

There really is a better, more loving way.

God bless Egypt the people, and God bless Babylon, the curious work of the Lord, and God bless Israel God's inheritance.

The three will become one in the land.

The Egyptians will come up with the Assyrians and they will serve together in the glorious land.


I cant say much to you because I have done much, much worse than posting a video that would really offend Catholic Believers in God.

I still offend them but I try not to be so hard anymore.

Protestants are also Catholic, they just don't know that they are Catholics.

I don't know what the best way is to turn Protestants and Catholics back to the ways of God, But I sure learned that I have a great deal of regret at having been so cruel to so many, for so long.

Myself, I try to find and show more beauty in the 7 feasts of the Messiah.

If the heart is really sincere, it will find ways to reach out to people of other faiths in a less painful way.

I was the most cruel of all, and you will never catch up with me.

But now I just have regret.

How will I find all those people who I hated and spit on?

I wished I could take out an ad in the newspaper to find them all.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Terrible video, I don't like it a bit.

I like you though!:p


When I first began speaking on forum, I was the biggest killer of Catholics.
.
Hi there,
This video is not about Roman Catholics nor about the Pope....
Rome is not mystery Babylon and this video shows What city is Mystery Babylon, from the Word of God....
Good video, lots of Scripture, lots of proof.
 
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HannibalFlavius

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Hi there,
This video is not about Roman Catholics nor about the Pope....
Rome is not mystery Babylon and this video shows What city is Mystery Babylon, from the Word of God....
Good video, lots of Scripture, lots of proof.

Oh, I'm sorry.

Maybe I should have watched the whole thing, please forgive me.

I just clicked it and watched a little of it and it sure looked like it was going in the direction of Catholic bashing.

I would think any Catholic who began to watch it would turn it off right away. I assume too much most of the time.

Edit-well don't I look stupid!

Maybe I should have started by actually reading the thread name.

All I did was click the video for a few seconds.

Sorry.
 
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yeshuasavedme said in post 1:

Where Is Mystery Babylon -Not The Vatican!

That's right, in the sense of not exclusively the Vatican. For while the corrupt aspects of the Vatican (and of other church headquarters) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of the Vatican. For the Vatican just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is the Vatican the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is the Vatican the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has the Vatican just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has the Vatican been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

The 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will destroy with fire what Revelation's "Babylon" represents (Revelation 17:16-17) when they destroy the cities of the earth (Revelation 16:19), probably with nukes (and probably with Fission-Fusion-Fission, "FFF", or "666", nukes, "F" representing the number six in English gematria), at the time of the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19), which will be the final event (Revelation 16:17) of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:2 to 20:6, Matthew 24:29-31). They could do this under the direction of Lucifer/Satan (Isaiah 14:17,12), who could want to leave only a literal "scorched earth" for Jesus to return to.

Near the very end of the future tribulation, Lucifer (employing the ancient lies of Gnosticism) could say to the Antichrist and his 10 kings something like: "Our great battle against the evil, tyrant god YHWH is about to begin [Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19], a battle which we will win, and so we will be able to escape YHWH's prison house, this material universe, and return to the wholly-spiritual Pleroma [i.e. Heaven]. So let us now destroy this prison cell, this foul planet, and let us, as it were, burn up all the gewgaws which we have hung upon our cell walls. Let us burn up all our great cities, all our magnificent systems. Let us break all our chains of attachment to this vile physical realm, that we might more freely ascend back to our rightful place in the Pleroma [Isaiah 14:13-14]".

Of course this will be a lie. For at his 2nd coming, Jesus (who is YHWH: John 10:30, Zechariah 14:3-4) will completely defeat the world's armies, arrayed against YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19-21). And Jesus will have Lucifer bound in the bottomless pit during the subsequent 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 14:15). And Jesus will restore ruined parts of the earth and make them like the Garden of Eden (Ezekiel 36:35, Isaiah 51:3). And after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), God will create a new heaven (a new first heaven, a new sky/atmosphere for the earth) and a new earth (a new surface for the earth) (Revelation 21:1). And then God will descend from the 3rd heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem, to live with saved humanity on the new earth (Revelation 21:2-4).

yeshuasavedme said in post 1:

Where Is Mystery Babylon -Not The Vatican!

Regarding the idea of Mecca being Mystery Babylon, note that while the corrupt aspects of Mecca (and of other cities) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of Mecca. For Mecca just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is Mecca the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor is Mecca the place where all martyrs have been killed (Revelation 18:24). Nor has Mecca just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has Mecca been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

Also, do you believe that Mecca's religion, Islam, will be the Antichrist's religion? If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, whereas the Antichrist will say that he's God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), whereas the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.
 
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Interplanner said in post 9:

The woman on the beast is the unfaithful wife of God riding on Rome for a while in the 1st century, which then turns on the woman and destroys her.

Regarding "the unfaithful wife", are you thinking of Ezekiel 16? If so, note that it doesn't require that Jerusalem alone must be the entirety of what the symbolic "Babylon" in Revelation chapters 17-18 represents, just as, for example, Nahum 3:4 doesn't require that Nineveh alone (Nahum 1:1) is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Similarly, Isaiah 23:15-16 doesn't require that Tyre alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 23:4-8,44 doesn't require that Samaria alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Jeremiah 3:6-7 and Hosea 4:15 don't require that the northern kingdom of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Ezekiel 20:30 and Ezekiel 43:7 don't require that the house of Israel alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". And Hosea 5:3 and Hosea 6:10 don't require that Ephraim alone is the entirety of Revelation's "Babylon". Instead, the corrupt aspects of all of these, and of all other cities and nations throughout the earth and throughout history, can be included as only parts of what Revelation's "Babylon" represents.

In Revelation 11:8, the great city is Jerusalem, where Jesus was crucified. But in Revelation 21:10, the great city is New Jerusalem, which is now in heaven. And in Revelation 14:8, Revelation 17:18, and Revelation 18:10-21, the great city is the symbolic harlot/city of Babylon. When it's destroyed, it will be found no more at all (Revelation 18:21), forever (Revelation 19:3), unlike Jerusalem, which was found again after its only-temporary destruction in 70 AD.

While the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem (and of other cities) are included in what Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) represents, it represents much more than just the corrupt aspects of Jerusalem. For Jerusalem just by itself doesn't reign over the kings of the earth (Revelation 17:18). Nor is Jerusalem the only place where people buy merchandise (Revelation 18:11). Nor has Jerusalem just by itself corrupted the entire world (Revelation 18:3). Nor has Jerusalem been continuously supported by the empires of fallen man throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10). Instead, Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" represents all of mankind's corrupt political (Revelation 17:18), economic (Revelation 18:11), and religious (Revelation 18:24) systems throughout the earth (Revelation 18:3), and throughout history (Revelation 17:9-10).

~

Currently, the corrupt world-system represented by Revelation's "Babylon" may be headquartered in Washington DC and New York City, insofar as Washington DC may currently be "the crowning city" (cf. Isaiah 23:8) of mankind's corrupt politics, the first leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 17:18). And New York City may currently be "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics, the second leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:11). "The crowning city" of mankind's corrupt religions, the third leg of Revelation's "Babylon" (Revelation 18:24), may currently be Jerusalem, as it was back in the first century AD (Matthew 23:35-38). Ultimately, all three legs of Revelation's "Babylon" will become headquartered in the literal rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq), which the Antichrist, during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), will make the capital of the world, only to see his city of Babylon ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Tyre was "the crowning city" of mankind's corrupt economics at one point in ancient times (Isaiah 23:8). God allowed the destruction of ancient Tyre as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth" (Isaiah 23:9). In the same way, would God allow the future destruction of Washington DC and New York City by terrorist nuclear bombs, as a lesson, an example, "to stain the pride of all glory, and to bring into contempt all the honourable of the earth"?

Also, the Bible teaches that, without repentance, what's sown is reaped (Galatians 6:7). And two nuclear bombs (developed in the "Manhattan" Project) were sown by the U.S. against two major cities in Japan (Hiroshima and Nagasaki) in order to terrorize Japan into surrender during World War II. So could the U.S. in the future reap two terrorist nuclear bombs against two of its own major cities (including Manhattan)? Could the U.S. avoid this fate by publicly repenting before God and asking him and Japan for forgiveness for the U.S. intentionally targeting and murdering 150,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children living in Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Could the 9/11 terrorists being allowed by God to intentionally target and murder 3,000 innocent civilian men, women, and children in New York City's Twin Towers and elsewhere in the U.S. have been just a warning to the U.S., a mere shot across its bow, to try to get the U.S. to repent for what it did to the two cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki? But could the U.S. continue to refuse to repent for its nuclear terrorism against Japan, leaving the way open for nuclear terrorism against the U.S.?

Also, a "restrainer" must be taken out of the way before the Antichrist can come into worldwide power (2 Thessalonians 2:6-9, Revelation 13:4-18). This restrainer could be a powerful angel like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3). It could be Michael the archangel, the angelic prince over Israel (Daniel 12:1, Daniel 10:21,13). Michael could also currently be the angelic prince over the U.S., making sure that it supports Israel. Part of Michael's being taken out of the way, just enough to allow the Antichrist to come into worldwide power, could be God removing Michael's protection of the U.S. just enough to allow Washington DC and New York City to be nuked by terrorists. This could weaken the U.S. not only by the destruction of its political and economic capitals, but also by the subsequent run on the U.S. dollar which could occur, rendering it close to worthless in world markets. The U.S. government could then finally go bankrupt, unable to finance any longer its huge debt, economy, and military. Its days as a superpower will be over, opening the way for the Antichrist to come into worldwide power (Revelation 13:4-18).

If Washington DC and New York City are attacked with nuclear bombs, will this really be the work of terrorists, such as Islamic jihadis? Or could it be a "false flag" operation, one presented to the world as an Islamic-jihadi attack, when in fact it will have been carefully stage-managed from behind the scenes by a powerful cabal, a worldwide secret society of Gnostic Luciferians, as part of their careful, step-by-step plan to prepare the way for the Antichrist (who is a Gnostic Luciferian: 1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4) to take over the world? And besides nuking Washington DC and New York City, could the cabal also nuke Los Angeles, destroying the major west coast port of the U.S.? And could the "Islamic terrorists" claim that they nuked Los Angeles because it contains Hollywood, and contains the San Fernando Valley, a center for inappropriate contentographic video production, so that Los Angeles has contributed greatly to the corrupt entertainment culture that dominates the world today, even in Islamic countries behind closed doors?

Regarding Jerusalem getting destroyed, at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will attack and pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including a 3rd Jewish temple (which will be built) and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) being completely broken down so that not one stone will be left upon another throughout the city (Luke 19:44). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem in righteousness and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4), during his thousand-year physical reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Interplanner said in post 9:

The woman on the beast is the unfaithful wife of God riding on Rome for a while in the 1st century, which then turns on the woman and destroys her.

Regarding "riding on Rome for a while in the 1st century", note that the 7 heads of the beast in its empire aspect (Revelation 13:1, Revelation 17:3) represent more than just ancient Rome. For they represent 7 different empires (Revelation 17:9-10): Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, Rome, and (possibly) Islam. The first 5 had fallen by the time of John the apostle in the first century AD: "five are fallen" (Revelation 17:10, Revelation 1:1b-2). The 6th (Rome) existed at the time of John: "one is" (Revelation 17:10). The 7th (possibly Islam) hadn't come by the time of John: "the other is not yet come" (Revelation 17:10). The empire of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) will be a different, still-future, 8th head (Revelation 17:11), which will be a revival of one of the 5 empires that had fallen by the time of John (Revelation 17:8,10,11). It will be a revival of the empire of Babylon. The Antichrist will transform the present-day, rebuilt city of Babylon (in Iraq) into the capital of his world empire, only to see it ultimately destroyed at Jesus' 2nd coming (Isaiah 13).

Before the 2nd coming, when the world is brought into the worship of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist, during the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist will build their main temple in the city of Babylon. For a temple to "wickedness" will be built in Shinar (Babylonia) (Zechariah 5:8,11), and the Antichrist is called "that Wicked" (2 Thessalonians 2:8). Also, the dragon has been the god worshipped in the city of Babylon since ancient times.

The Antichrist may claim to be Nebuchadnezzar returned, and so reinstitute the system that Nebuchadnezzar set up whereby everyone had to worship an image or be killed (Daniel 3, Revelation 13:15). The Antichrist may also claim to be, at the same time, the return of Nimrod (the founder of Babylon: Genesis 10:8-10), and Hammurabi, and Asoka, and other famous rulers of the past. For he may claim that he has had many different "past lives" as various "enlightened" rulers.

Besides building a main temple in Babylon, the Antichrist will also sit (at least one time) in a future, 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, and declare himself God there (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36,31, Matthew 24:15, Revelation 11:1-2). The Antichrist could also sit (at least one time) in other religions' holiest shrines, and declare himself to be God there as well. For example, he could also sit in Islam's Kaaba in Mecca, in the Sikhs' Golden Temple in Amritsar, in Catholicism's St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican, etc.
 
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prewrathrap

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SO...............Babylon is Jerusalem, and Jerusalem is Babylon?

Oh yes, that makes perfect sense.

Read what I wrote. I said Mystery Babylon is Jerusalem. Babylon and Mystery Babylon are two different places. The clue is earlier on in Book of Revelation in the identification of great city where our Lord was crucified see Rev 11:8 then read Rev 16:5-6 the woman, harlot is identifird as drunk with blood
Of saints and identified as Mystery Babylon.

The clue is what great city meets all conditions of great city in book of Rev. is met only by Jerusalem.
 
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shturt678

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Learning to appreciate you, your words and now the video - just ol' old Jack. I just wanted to put forth my two-bits: Babylon the Great is the antichristian empire = Great harlot, Rev.17:1-19:10. Scarlet Woman symbolizes the antichristian seduction. btw a lot of work went into the video and did enjoy. :thumbsup:
 
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Paxton25

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I've read all the posts and don't see a lot of Scriptural evidence for cities besides Rome (the city set on 7 hills). The Scarlet Beast on which Babylon (gateway to the gods) sits is a resurrected Roman Empire (Rev. 17).

I'll leave you to examine history and decide for yourselves, which ''city'' the world will mourn when ''Babylon'' falls.

Revelation 18:9 “The kings of the earth who committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her will weep and lament for her, when they see the smoke of her burning, 10 standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

11 “And the merchants of the earth will weep and mourn over her, for no one buys their merchandise anymore: 12 merchandise of gold and silver, precious stones and pearls, fine linen and purple, silk and scarlet, every kind of citron wood, every kind of object of ivory, every kind of object of most precious wood, bronze, iron, and marble; 13 and cinnamon and incense, fragrant oil and frankincense, wine and oil, fine flour and wheat, cattle and sheep, horses and chariots, and bodies and souls of men. 14 The fruit that your soul longed for has gone from you, and all the things which are rich and splendid have gone from you, and you shall find them no more at all.

15 The merchants of these things, who became rich by her, will stand at a distance for fear of her torment, weeping and wailing, 16 and saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city that was clothed in fine linen, purple, and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls! 17 For in one hour such great riches came to nothing.’ Every shipmaster, all who travel by ship, sailors, and as many as trade on the sea, stood at a distance 18 and cried out when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What is like this great city?’


Rome doesn't immediately come to mind when you think of global commerce, but it should. The Vatican Bank and reports of Swiss bank accounts are just a few of many tentacles that reach around the world.
 
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