Proof that the ESV, NIV, NASB are Vatican Versions
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brandplucked said:
So can I assume that your refusal to give Scripture to support your position is an admission that no Scripture supports your position?
Surely there is a passage that shows what you teach so dogmatically about the KJV.
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Originally Posted by brandplucked
(staff edit) Last time I checked, a translation is a Book. The fact is, you do not have nor believe in ANY Bible (Book=translation) that is the inspired and infallible words of God.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. If He did not inspire something, then He cannot use it, but Satan can and does. That is why most Christians today do NOT believe in the infallibility of the Bible - any Bible in any language.
Here are some more examples. The Holy Spirit did not inspire all these contradictory readings.
Bible Babel - a look at some of the hundreds of such examples of different meanings found in the multitude of conflicting bible versions on the market today. Here are just a few examples to start off this comparative study. The meanings are often the very opposite of what is found in the King James Bible and many others when we compare what is found in many modern versions.
Genesis 27:39-40
KJB thy dwelling SHALL BE the fatness of the earth
NIV Your dwelling will be AWAY FROM the earth’s richness
NASB, ESV - AWAY FROM the fertility of the earth shall be your dwelling
Job 16:20
KJB My friends SCORN me: but mine eye poureth out tears unto God.
NIV My intercessor IS MY FRIEND as my eyes pour out tears to God.
Psalm 10:4, 5
KJB wicked…..His ways are always GRIEVOUS
NIV wicked…..His ways are always prosperous
NKJV wicked…..His ways are always prospering
ESV wicked…..His ways prosper at all times
HCSB wicked…..His ways are always secure
Psalm 29:9
KJB The voice of the LORD maketh the HINDS TO CALVE
NIV The voice of the LORD TWISTS THE OAKS
Proverbs 18:24
KJB A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly
NASB A man of many friends COMES TO RUIN
NIV A man of many companions MAY COME TO RUIN
ESV A man of many companions MAY COME TO RUIN
HCSB A man with many friends MAY BE HARMED
Proverbs 22:20 "excellent things", "three times" or "thirty sayings"?
KJB (RV, ASV, NASB, NKJV) -Have not I written unto thee EXCELLENT THINGS
NIV, ESV - Have I not written for you THIRTY SAYINGS of counsel and knowledge
Young's - "Have I not written to thee THREE TIMES with counsels and knowledge?
Proverbs 25:23
KJB The north wind DRIVETH AWAY rain
NIV As a north wind BRINGS rain
NASB The north wind BRINGS forth rain
ESV The north wind BRINGS forth rain
Proverbs 26:22
KJB The words of a talebearer are as WOUNDS
NIV The words of a gossip are like choice morsels
NASB The words of a whisperer are like dainty morsels
ESV The words of a whisperer are delicious morsels
HCSB A gossip’s words are like choice food
Ecclesiastes 8:10
KJB wicked…..were FORGOTTEN
NIV wicked…..receive praise
ESV wicked…..were praised
Isaiah 9:1
KJB afterward did more GRIEVOUSLY AFFLICT …….Galilee
NASB later on He shall make it glorious…….Galilee
NIV in the future he will honor Galilee
ESV in the latter time he has made glorious….Galilee
Isaiah 9:3
KJB NOT increased their joy
NIV, TNIV increased the joy
NKJV increased its joy
ESV increased its joy
NASB increased their gladness
Jeremiah 51:3
KJB LET the archer BEND his bow
ESV Let NOT the archer BEND his bow
NIV Let NOT the archer STRING his bow
NASB Let NOT him who BENDS his bow BEND it
Hosea 10:1
KJB Israel is an EMPTY vine
NASB Israel is a luxuriant vine
ESV Israel is a luxuriant vine
NIV Israel was a spreading vine
Hosea 11:12
KJB Judah yet RULETH WITH God
NIV Judah is UNRULY AGAINST God
NASB Judah is also UNRULY AGAINST God
Colossians 2:18
KJB things which he hath NOT seen
NIV, TNIV, ISV what he HAS seen
NASB visions he HAS seen
RSV, ESV, Holman, NET = NASB, NIV.
Colossians 4:8
KJB HE might know YOUR estate
ESV YOU may know how WE ARE
HCSB YOU may know how WE ARE
NIV YOU may know about OUR CIRCUMSTANCES
TNIV YOU may know about OUR CIRCUMSTANCES
Hebrews 3:16
KJB - For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
NKJV - For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
ESV -For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?
NIV - Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
Now, let's look at some of these examples in more detail. Here are the explanations. The King James Bible is right, as always.
Bible Babel 1 - Another King James Bible Believer
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8
"But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." 1 Cor. 14:38
So, prog. Tell us, which of these is your "inerrant scriptures" the Holy Spirit both inspired and is using to guide you into this Sanctification you talk about?
(staff edit) Last time I checked, a translation is a Book. The fact is, you do not have nor believe in ANY Bible (Book=translation) that is the inspired and infallible words of God.
The Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth. If He did not inspire something, then He cannot use it, but Satan can and does. That is why most Christians today do NOT believe in the infallibility of the Bible - any Bible in any language.
Here are some more examples. The Holy Spirit did not inspire all these contradictory readings.
Bible Babel - a look at some of the hundreds of such examples of different meanings found in the multitude of conflicting bible versions on the market today. Here are just a few examples to start off this comparative study. The meanings are often the very opposite of what is found in the King James Bible and many others when we compare what is found in many modern versions.
Genesis 27:39-40
KJB thy dwelling SHALL BE the fatness of the earth
NIV Your dwelling will be AWAY FROM the earth’s richness
NASB, ESV - AWAY FROM the fertility of the earth shall be your dwelling
Job 16:20
KJB My friends SCORN me: but mine eye poureth out tears unto God.
NIV My intercessor IS MY FRIEND as my eyes pour out tears to God.
Psalm 10:4, 5
KJB wicked…..His ways are always GRIEVOUS
NIV wicked…..His ways are always prosperous
NKJV wicked…..His ways are always prospering
ESV wicked…..His ways prosper at all times
HCSB wicked…..His ways are always secure
Psalm 29:9
KJB The voice of the LORD maketh the HINDS TO CALVE
NIV The voice of the LORD TWISTS THE OAKS
Proverbs 18:24
KJB A man that hath friends must shew himself friendly
NASB A man of many friends COMES TO RUIN
NIV A man of many companions MAY COME TO RUIN
ESV A man of many companions MAY COME TO RUIN
HCSB A man with many friends MAY BE HARMED
Proverbs 22:20 "excellent things", "three times" or "thirty sayings"?
KJB (RV, ASV, NASB, NKJV) -Have not I written unto thee EXCELLENT THINGS
NIV, ESV - Have I not written for you THIRTY SAYINGS of counsel and knowledge
Young's - "Have I not written to thee THREE TIMES with counsels and knowledge?
Proverbs 25:23
KJB The north wind DRIVETH AWAY rain
NIV As a north wind BRINGS rain
NASB The north wind BRINGS forth rain
ESV The north wind BRINGS forth rain
Proverbs 26:22
KJB The words of a talebearer are as WOUNDS
NIV The words of a gossip are like choice morsels
NASB The words of a whisperer are like dainty morsels
ESV The words of a whisperer are delicious morsels
HCSB A gossip’s words are like choice food
Ecclesiastes 8:10
KJB wicked…..were FORGOTTEN
NIV wicked…..receive praise
ESV wicked…..were praised
Isaiah 9:1
KJB afterward did more GRIEVOUSLY AFFLICT …….Galilee
NASB later on He shall make it glorious…….Galilee
NIV in the future he will honor Galilee
ESV in the latter time he has made glorious….Galilee
Isaiah 9:3
KJB NOT increased their joy
NIV, TNIV increased the joy
NKJV increased its joy
ESV increased its joy
NASB increased their gladness
Jeremiah 51:3
KJB LET the archer BEND his bow
ESV Let NOT the archer BEND his bow
NIV Let NOT the archer STRING his bow
NASB Let NOT him who BENDS his bow BEND it
Hosea 10:1
KJB Israel is an EMPTY vine
NASB Israel is a luxuriant vine
ESV Israel is a luxuriant vine
NIV Israel was a spreading vine
Hosea 11:12
KJB Judah yet RULETH WITH God
NIV Judah is UNRULY AGAINST God
NASB Judah is also UNRULY AGAINST God
Colossians 2:18
KJB things which he hath NOT seen
NIV, TNIV, ISV what he HAS seen
NASB visions he HAS seen
RSV, ESV, Holman, NET = NASB, NIV.
Colossians 4:8
KJB HE might know YOUR estate
ESV YOU may know how WE ARE
HCSB YOU may know how WE ARE
NIV YOU may know about OUR CIRCUMSTANCES
TNIV YOU may know about OUR CIRCUMSTANCES
Hebrews 3:16
KJB - For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
NKJV - For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
ESV -For who were those who heard and yet rebelled? Was it not all those who left Egypt led by Moses?
NIV - Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt?
Now, let's look at some of these examples in more detail. Here are the explanations. The King James Bible is right, as always.
Bible Babel 1 - Another King James Bible Believer
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8
"But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." 1 Cor. 14:38
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The reading of Matthew 1:25 in the current Greek texts is NOT a Roman Catholic rather than Protestant preferences. We know for an incontrovertible fact that this reading was the preference of Protestant scholars well before Carlo Martini was even born!
Absolute Proof: In the third edition (1901) of the Novum Testamentum Graece by Eberhard Nestle, the words τον πρωτοτοκον are absent as they were in Tischendorfs Greek text of 1878. I have right here on my desk first edition copies of both of these Greek texts and I am not relying upon Vatican websites.
The reading of Luke 1:28 in the current Greek texts is NOT a Roman Catholic rather than Protestant preferences. We know for an incontrovertible fact that this reading was the preference of Protestant scholars well before Carlo Martini was even born!
Absolute Proof: In the third edition (1901) of the Novum Testamentum Graece by Eberhard Nestle, the words ευλογημενη συ εν γυναιξιν are absent as they were in Tischendorfs Greek text of 1878.
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The readings of Matthew 6:13 and Luke 11:1-2 in the current Greek texts are NOT Roman Catholic rather than Protestant preferences. We know for an incontrovertible fact that these readings were the preference of Protestant scholars well before Carlo Martini was even born!
Absolute Proof: See the third edition (1901) of Novum Testamentum Graece by Eberhard Nestle, and Tischendorfs Greek text of 1878.
In your posts, you begin by making a false assertion and follow that false assertion with very many true statements that do NOT support the false assertion. Do you believe that is an honest way to defend your beliefs regarding Bibles?
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Scott4Him said:
No KJVO advocate is willing to answer? Anyone? I've seen lots of links and references to articles. Tons of verses showing that other translations are different. Not a single post has given a Scriptural reference to the KJVO doctrinal stance.
One might conclude there is no Scripture that backs up their claim.
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None so blind as those that refuse to see.
The Vatican is directly involved with creating the UBS interconfessional text that is the basis for such translations as the ESV, NIV, NASB and the modern Catholic versions like the St. Joseph New American Bible and the New Jerusalem bible. They tell you this in their own Nestle-Aland Greek text, in the St. Joseph NAB Preface and in their own Catholic sites. But you don't believe it because you don't want to. The harlot of Babylon welcomes you with open arms. Come to Momma!
You can see the Douay-Rheims Catholic bible here. Compare the verses and see how many of them were IN the previous Catholic bible versions! To me, this is absolutely mind blowing how today's United Bible Society is churning out this new unified bible that differs so much from even the previous Catholic Bibles, all in the name of "Christian unity". Here is the previous Catholic Douay-Rheims bible.
Douay-Rheims Bible Online, Roman Catholic Bible Verses Search.
You can look up the verses and see for yourself in black and white that it contains in its New Testament text the following verses that are entirely omitted by the UBS Evangelical/Catholic Combine that is churning out the now popular ESV, NIV and NASB "bibles". The NASB and Holman Standard [bracket many of these verses, thus indicating doubt as to their authenticity]. A real faith builder, isn't it, to have entire sections of the Bible [in brackets]!! The Douay-Rheims bible of 1582 and the Douay Version of 1950 both contained all of Matthew 12:47; 17:21 (v.20); 18:11; all of 23:14!, Mark 7:16; 9:44 and 9:46 (v.45,47); Mark 11:26; 15:28; Luke 23:17, John 5:4!, Acts 8:37!!; Acts 24:6b through 8a; Acts 28:29; Romans 16:24 and even 1 John 5:7 "And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one."!!! Absolutely Amazing, isn't it? So, who is coming up with this new Evangelical/Catholic Connection bible and why?
The hundreds of textual differences between the Traditional Text Reformation bibles and the modern UBS Catholic/Evangelical bible versions is that there is a concerted effort between the Catholics and modern apostate Christianity to create "a new bible" that will be accepted by both camps. It doesn't matter to them whether it is the complete, inspired and inerrant Bible or not. Neither the Evangelicals nor the Catholics believe such a thing exists! Their continuing mantra is that "ONLY the originals WERE inspired" and nobody knows for sure what the originals said, so we no longer have an inerrant bible anyway. Apparently what is important to them is that both their "bibles" agree, even though not one of them believes it IS the inerrant words of God nor our final authority. If the Bible is not the inerrant words of God, then the Bible is not our final authority and we will then need to look elsewhere. And where might that final authority be found? the "scholars"? (Evangelicals' modern day "priestcraft"), "the Pope"? or the next world religious leader (the Anti-Christ)? But you can bet it sure won't be their "bible".
Guess why the UBS (United Bible Society) Greek texts are the basis for all these new versions? It's because Catholics and Evangelicals were united to produce this text. One of the 5 chief editors was the New Age Catholic Cardinal Carlos Martini, who believed god was in all men and in all religions. Just open a copy of the UBS New Testament Greek and turn to the first page. There you will see a list of the 5 chief editors who put this abomination together. The 4th name on the list, right before the inerrancy denying Bruce Metzger, is Carlo M. Martini. In his book "In the Thick of His Ministry" the Jesuit Cardinal Martini writes: The deification which is the aim of all religious life takes place. During a recent trip to India I was struck by the yearning for the divine that pervades the whole of Hindu culture. It gives rise to extraordinary religious forms and extremely meaningful prayers. I wondered: What is authentic in this longing to fuse with the divine dominating the spirituality of hundreds of millions of human beings, so that they bear hardship, privation, exhausting pilgrimages, in search of this ecstasy?" (In The Thick Of His Ministry, Carlo M. Martini, page 42.) Jesuit Cardinal Martini served on the editorial committee for the United Bible Societies' 2nd, 3rd and 4th editions. These are the "bibles" most modern Christians are using today when they pick up the ESV, NIV, NASB, NET or modern Catholic "bibles".
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8
"But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant." 1 Cor. 14:38
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It sure is, and so much truth in the shortest post in the thread too!
According to the OP, it seems the level of conspiracy within the Catholic Church against us all is so endemic in all things and so all powerful that it is futile to resist... we will be assimilated!
We are The Borg - YouTube
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Originally Posted by PaladinValer
When you can't refute the evidence and you still chose to be an unbeliever in the infallibility of the Bible (ANY Bible in ANY language) then come up with some "deep and well thought out" mockery. That will put those hayseed King James Bible believers in their place!
KJV-Oism is bunk.
It sure is, and so much truth in the shortest post in the thread too!
When you can't refute the evidence and you still chose to be an unbeliever in the infallibility of the Bible (ANY Bible in ANY language) then come up with some "deep and well thought out" mockery. That will put those hayseed King James Bible believers in their place!
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brandplucked said:
Again, you've shared no verses that teach God would provide ONE valid translation, or that the only valid translation is KJV.
You have managed to prove that the translations are different, a point nobody is disputing.
You can see from Scripture that understandable translations are important. One such place is when Ezra read the law.
They read from the book, from the law of God, translating to give the sense so that they understood the reading. (Nehemiah 8:8 NASB)
Or if you prefer:
So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. (Nehemiah 8:8 KJV)
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These statements have already been proven falsewhy do you continue to post them.
Moreover, it is an incontrovertible fact that no one can cite even a single instance in any Protestant translation of the Bible in which the underlying Greek text reflects a Roman Catholic rather than Protestant preference. You have pretended to post a few, but when I checked old Protestant texts that predated even the birth of Carlo MartiniI found those preferences in them.
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PaladinValer
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It sure is, and so much truth in the shortest post in the thread too!
According to the OP, it seems the level of conspiracy within the Catholic Church against us all is so endemic in all things and so all powerful that it is futile to resist... we will be assimilated!
As I've said before, which you've agreed to, conspiracy theory is a root for bad theology,
Forget the borg; beware the modrons!
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Scott, the simple FACT is that you yourself do NOT believe that ANY Bible in any language IS or ever was the 100% true, inspired and infallible words of God. God is a God of truth and He cannot lie. He says "Seek ye out of the book of the LORD and read" Isaiah 34:16.
When I come across flat out lies or blatant textual corruptions, I discard that "bible" version as being God's true Book. After a while, the only one left standing is the King James Bible. It is the ONLY one believed by thousands to be in fact the infallible words of God. What have you guys got? NOTHING. No infallible Bible to believe in or to give to anyone else.
I listed many reasons why God's true Book must come from England and be in the English language.
God's Persistent Witness to the Absolute Standard of Written Truth - The King James Holy Bible
Absolute Standard - Another King James Bible Believer
But you do not have ears to hear and choose to remain in your unbelief in an infallible Bible. If this is the path you have chosen to walk down, then go for it. See where it takes you.
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Luke 8:8
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Is that a fact? Interesting, as I've never stated that position.
The full context of the verse you snipped is talking about the assurity of God's prophecy against the nations. Isaiah was NOT warning us to seek out the KJV and read from it only.
No. You start from a position of the KJV being God's only true book. From that presupposition you conclude that all other texts and translations are false.
Yeah? BILLIONS believe the Qur'an. Does that number mean we should view it as God's Word too?
And not one of them based on a passage of Scripture. You know what your arguments remind me of? They remind me of Jesus' teaching about the Pharisees.
Mark 7:7-8
7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
You are teaching traditions and doctrines of men, by adding the requirement of using only the KJV. The reason it bothers me, is it is an additional obstacle to non-believers learning the truth of God.
So now you're quoting out of context the Parable of the Sower. Unless you think that in my case the seed fell on poor soil? Which soil do you suppose I am?
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Originally Posted by brandplucked
Why are bible agnostics always so deceptive? Why so many lies? Simply SHOW us the "infallible Bible" you supposedly believe in that is right and 100% true and when others differ from it in texts or meanings, then the others are wrong and your infallible Bible is right. You will NEVER do this? Why? Because you simply do not believe such a thing as a complete and infallible Bible exists. Prove me wrong.
Scott, the simple FACT is that you yourself do NOT believe that ANY Bible in any language IS or ever was the 100% true, inspired and infallible words of God.
Scott says: "Is that a fact? Interesting, as I've never stated that position."
Why are bible agnostics always so deceptive? Why so many lies? Simply SHOW us the "infallible Bible" you supposedly believe in that is right and 100% true and when others differ from it in texts or meanings, then the others are wrong and your infallible Bible is right. You will NEVER do this? Why? Because you simply do not believe such a thing as a complete and infallible Bible exists. Prove me wrong.
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brandplucked said:
Why the name calling?
Where have I been deceptive?
Why the refusal to show a single verse that supports your laws and traditions of men?
How am I a Bible agnostic? I believe in the infallible Word of God. I love it. I share it. I read and meditate on it daily. I memorize it. I study it.
I use it to shape my thoughts. From it I learn that God is holy, we are not and our sin demands a price. God paid that price when Jesus became a man, died on the cross and rise again. I believed and repented. I walk with Him daily.
Where am I wrong. And *AHEM* ON WHAT BIBLICAL AUTHORITY DO YOU MAKE YOUR CLAIMS ABOUT KJVONLYISM!?
I'll respond when and if you can finally produce a passage. Not a list of verses that have been "changed" but an actual passage to shoe KJVO is in fact a doctrine of God and not man.
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PaladinValer
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Don't ever expect any answers; note how my correction of his claim that "Lutherans, Pentecostals, etc" all contributed to the translation. I even noted that Methodism and Pentecostalism were too recent to have contributed, and that all were ordained save one within the Anglican Church, most of them conformists with a few Puritans (who were all, for the time, Anglicans-in-name-only). It only shows the truth depth of scholarship (none, obviously) and the irrationality of KJOism's claims.
Don't reply if there's any more ad hominem attacks; just report it.
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At Jeremiah 27:1, we find in the Masoretic Text a serious errorthe Hebrew text of Jeremiah 26:1 appears there instead! As early as more than 130 years before the birth of Christ, the translators of the Septuagint noticed the error and omitted the verse. The translators of the Syriac and Peshitta versions substituted the name Zedekiah because he is the King spoken of in chapter 27 (see vv. 3 and 12). The translators of the RSV, NASB, NIV (1984), TNIV, NIV (2011), ESV (2011), NRSV, and the NET translate from the Syriac and Peshitta versions. When the Old Testament of the KJV underwent a major revision in 1884 (the RV), this error was not corrected. The ASV (1901) is the American edition of the RV with some changes by the American revision committee, but they left the reading of the KJV intacta most unfortunate blunder! When the Old Testament of the ASV was revised in 1952 (the RSV), the error was corrected. The ESV is an independent theologically conservative revision of the RSV, and so it included the correction. When the Revised Standard Version was revised in 1989 (the NRSV)) by the copyright holders, the correction was, of course, included.
The reaction to this error in the KJV by people who worship it even though in the rest of chapter 27 of Jeremiah the real name of the king is used is a good example of what happens when people refuse to learn the truth.
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The New American Bible of 1970 deserves further comment. Jeremiah 27:1 reads:
1. [In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim, son of Josiah, king of Judah] this message came to Jeremiah from the LORD:
The footnote to this verse reads, 27,1. [In the beginning of the reign of Jehoiakim . . . Judah] : this gloss cannot be correct because according to 28:1, the time is the fourth year of Zedekiah 594 B.C., the occasion of an embassy of the neighboring states (v 3), doubtless for the purpose of laying plans against Nebuchadnezzar.
The New American Bible, Revised Edition (2011) reads,
1. In the beginning of the reign of Zedekiah, son of Josiah, king of Judah, this word came to Jeremiah from the LORD:
A footnote reads, [27:1] Zedekiah: The Hebrew text actually has Jehoiakim, but the content of the chapter indicates that Zedekiah is intended.
Therefore, folks, there we have it! In Jeremiah 27, the KJV tells us that the king in the chapter is Zedekiah, but in verse one it mistakenly names the king at Jehoiakim (based on an error in Masoretic Text). Even if this were the only error in the KJV, it incontrovertibly proves that the KJV is far from infallibleindeed, it is the work of very fallible men and consequently includes mistakes. God, being very much aware of these mistakes, has brought them to the attention of revisers of the KJV and the translators of contemporary versions of the Bible so that we may read and know the truth.
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As I've said before, which you've agreed to, conspiracy theory is a root for bad theology,
Forget the borg; beware the modrons!
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