I find that the witch hunts of the dark ages were immoral

super animator

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Question,

What makes God any more likely/possible to exist than a witch or tooth fairy, if there is no such thing as magic?
Your derailing this topic, by creating a red-herring that has nothing to do with subject at hand. Creating a new topic in the appropriate section.
 
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Ecclectic79

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I am curious to know what people think magic actually is. I believe it to be nothing more than a projection of intent and sometimes similar to that of prayer. It has nothing to do with satan or demons or evil or anything like that.
I'm not sure anyone really knows for certain.

HC Agrippa at least did a good enough job of explaining natural magick and divining. Natural magick is about imbuing charicteristics/virtues of one thing on another thing. It comes from platonist/neoplatonist thinking that would tell one that God sends down an idea, that idea gets clothed by the celestial spheres to be sent down to the earth from whence it comes back up clothed in matter (which is described in elemental terms of earth, air, water, and fire). The idea is that many things have Saturnine, Martian, Venusian, Jovian, Lunar, Solar, or Mercurial characteristics or virtues and the ritual of imbuing an object with their characteristics could be thought of as something like macrochemistry. Divining or any -mancy (pyromancy, hydromancy, airomancy, geomancy) is looking at things that produce moving random patterns for the black mirror effect - ie. getting a feedback loop into your own brain, into your subconscious, and pretty much getting the benefit of the pharmakeia effect without the pharmakeia (ie. bringing hypnogogia to the surface).

All of that is relatively victimless (self possibly excluded) unless one is sacrificing animals or pulling eyes/tongues from live things for those planetary characteristic.

As far as Enochian angel magick, greater and lesser Solomon keys, and grimoire work for summoning daemons and elementals - I don't know a thing about it, I don't even think I want to go there for intellectual curiosity the way I did in researching the stuff above, but there is a whole flank of magick that's dedicated to it. My honest guess - magick being real and there being a whole subcategory of magick dedicated to it with a great wealth of academic research from people in those fields, I tend to take them at their word that they can summon.

As for whether its demonic in the Christian sense, I think you're looking then at whether or not the bible is edified by the realities of the world we live in in the terms that its read. Its an indirect proof but aside from its prophetic value there seems to be something moving in the heirarchies (human and otherwise) that tries to steer the world toward fulfillment of its prophecies. That in and of itself is major cause for concern. Is it possible that evil is simply opposite poles of nature (ie. Luciferic/Ahrimanic with Christic in the middle)? I can't rule it out, and I cant rule out that such a system wouldn't have its own incredibly tough love for people messing with things that they shouldn't.

Regardless, when people bring up the name of Jesus it stops 'aliens', it stops ascended master channelings, it can cast out demons - whatever the truth is on whether or not we're anywhere near understanding the bible in its full depth it does seem clear that whoever Jesus is, whoever said every knee shall bend - I don't think they stuttered. IMHO that's good cause, especially with more internal logic supporting him being Yahweh's son rather than Yahweh being any kind of demiurge, Leviticus 20 and Deuteronomy 18 are worth paying attention to because those laws are a part of who he is, what he's about, and what he'd demand of us if we're with him.
 
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Ecclectic79

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Question,

What makes God any more likely/possible to exist than a witch or tooth fairy, if there is no such thing as magic?
That would probably come from the people who'd say they believe in God but then would think someone needed medication if they believed in miracles or being baptized in the Holy Spirit.

I tend to think of that as materialist theism, something that only exists when one is agnostic/atheist and either hasn't self-examined enough to realize it or alternately is a cultural Christian for the networking and conformity/image reasons rather than believing in what's said at church. There could be other reasons but that's about all I come up with.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Somewhere back in history people used to accuse others of being witches and thus have them tried and killed.

I find this to be the height of ignorance: If our ancestors had realized that magic doesn't exist, then they would have realized that accusing others of being witches was ludicrous. If magic doens't exist, then neither do witches.

At least, that is what I believe. Outside of the movies, magic doesn't exist. There is no such thing as magic in real life. And it's foolish to believe it does exist. Its like saying the tooth fairy exists too (And I know she doesn't).
The Bible quite clearly declares magic to be real, but paints it as Satanic.

So I don't find any logical reason why our ancestors accused people of being witches and then having them tried in a court of law and had them killed for that reason. I don't think that being a witch should be a crime anyway.
"Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live". The good and pious Christian must, therefore, not suffer a witch to live. If the Bible has such a law, then it must be true that witches are real, and that magic is real.

So many innocent people were falsey accused of crimes they didn't commit. And all because of ignorance.

The whole thing is so evil.
Indeed, hence why we fight so hard against theocracy, and champion walls between church and state.
 
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willlowbee

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What some call magic others know as focused will.

Of course the witch hunts of old were immoral. Witch was a catchall phrase for stamping out those who refused to comport with the new order of things. In truth the nature worshipers, the real witches, were never found or executed.
They, like nature, adapted and survived the new evolution.

We have witch hunts today. Only they too are renamed. Now they're clad in the guise of political activism that seeks to stamp out the new communities that refuse to comport with the new order of things.

Outlawing gays, controlling women, forcing people to pay a government entity in order to keep money they earn, etc....
Witch hunts are the stuff of the old ways but they've been reintroduced through new methods of coercion.
Because some, not all, would not stand for pyres, or gallows, or public drownings, or guillotines today. But some, not all, abide and advocate their equal through other methods of persuasion and persecution.

Same tactic different century.
 
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Upisoft

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What if 'witch hunts' were the brain-child of the super-rich to curb the population growth (eugenics) of the lower class, prevent any threat of uprising, and steal their wealth?
Lower class had no wealth worth mentioning. And sometimes upper class was also victim to witch-hunts.

So, no. They truly believed some people do witchcraft. I know people who think that witchcraft works even nowadays.
 
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Lovely Jar

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Lower class had no wealth worth mentioning. And sometimes upper class was also victim to witch-hunts.

So, no. They truly believed some people do witchcraft. I know people who think that witchcraft works even nowadays.
Perhaps the producer of the uploaded video meant to say the lower class persecution to curb their reproduction, and the upper class being accused so that their wealth could be stolen due to the accusation. In which case the property(ies) then went to the state.

All it took at the time was the mere accusation and a person was taken into custody. Great way to come about someone's property that otherwise refused to sell outright.
 
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Upisoft

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Perhaps the producer of the uploaded video meant to say the lower class persecution to curb their reproduction, and the upper class being accused so that their wealth could be stolen due to the accusation. In which case the property(ies) then went to the state.

All it took at the time was the mere accusation and a person was taken into custody. Great way to come about someone's property that otherwise refused to sell outright.
Still stupid thing to do. Having wealth means nothing. If you kill people from lower class you will have to do all things yourself. No one will work for you. I think they were not that stupid.
 
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Lovely Jar

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Still stupid thing to do. Having wealth means nothing. If you kill people from lower class you will have to do all things yourself. No one will work for you. I think they were not that stupid.

Perhaps you should research things before calling what you don't know, stupid.
 
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morningstar2651

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Somewhere back in history people used to accuse others of being witches and thus have them tried and killed.

I find this to be the height of ignorance: If our ancestors had realized that magic doesn't exist, then they would have realized that accusing others of being witches was ludicrous. If magic doens't exist, then neither do witches.

At least, that is what I believe. Outside of the movies, magic doesn't exist. There is no such thing as magic in real life. And it's foolish to believe it does exist. Its like saying the tooth fairy exists too (And I know she doesn't).

So I don't find any logical reason why our ancestors accused people of being witches and then having them tried in a court of law and had them killed for that reason. I don't think that being a witch should be a crime anyway.

So many innocent people were falsey accused of crimes they didn't commit. And all because of ignorance.

The whole thing is so evil.

I have 2 things to add to this OP, one of which I have already seen mentioned in this thread.

  1. Witch hunts are still happening in Africa.
  2. Witch hunts weren't limited to the Dark Age. The Salem Witch Trials happened in colonial Massachusetts in 1692. This is after the dark age and the middle ages.
 
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elephunky

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I have 2 things to add to this OP, one of which I have already seen mentioned in this thread.

  1. Witch hunts are still happening in Africa.
  2. Witch hunts weren't limited to the Dark Age. The Salem Witch Trials happened in colonial Massachusetts in 1692. This is after the dark age and the middle ages.

I remember reading about a man who beat and set his sister on fire (while she was still alive) in Africa because he believed her to be a witch. That happens often apparently.
 
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elephunky

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Were in Africa? And what specific religion.

I think it may have been Kenya but I don't remember exactly, do not remember where the article was (can't find it) but christians in Kenya are known for their witch hunts. If you google set on fire for being a witch africa, there are plenty of articles and videos about people being beaten and set alight.
 
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morningstar2651

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I think it may have been Kenya but I don't remember exactly, do not remember where the article was (can't find it) but christians in Kenya are known for their witch hunts. If you google set on fire for being a witch africa, there are plenty of articles and videos about people being beaten and set alight.

Mob burns to death 11 Kenyan "witches" | Reuters

BBC News | AFRICA | Congo witch-hunt's child victims

Witch hunt: Africa's hidden war on women - Africa - World - The Independent
 
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Upisoft

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Perhaps you should research things before calling what you don't know, stupid.
Why not? I also call TV shows like "Jackass" stupid, while it has fans who think it is awesome. No amount of research will make it awesome for me, so believe me or not, the same is valid about what I've already said earlier. It is stupid, and you are by no means required to agree with my opinion.
 
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