free will

ThouArtThat said:

An action is considered free, or voluntary, when it is the result of a decision. But if decisions themselves were voluntary, then every decision would be preceded by an infinite regression of decisions to decide, and so no final decision could ever be made.

What are your thoughts on this?

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You made a learning robot. When a decision of the robot surprised you, that is when you "define" what a "free will" is.

ThouArtThat said:

An action is considered free, or voluntary, when it is the result of a decision. But if decisions themselves were voluntary, then every decision would be preceded by an infinite regression of decisions to decide, and so no final decision could ever be made.

What are your thoughts on this?

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I don't consider decisions to be free. They are determined (or random) like everything else.

BelievingIsObeying said:

It is always physically possible to choose more than one option, unless one is unconscious.

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Your brain and mind are determined (or random) like everything else. There's no reason to think they are free to make either one of two decisions in any situation. They were always going to make one specific decision.

eg: If I pick up a pen now, it was determined, not free. I couldn't have done otherwise.

Paradoxum said:

I don't consider decisions to be free. They are determined (or random) like everything else.

Your brain and mind are determined (or random) like everything else. There's no reason to think they are free to make either one of two decisions in any situation. They were always going to make one specific decision.

eg: If I pick up a pen now, it was determined, not free. I couldn't have done otherwise.

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If everything is determined, what is determining it? If everything is random, why is there order?

a lot depends in the purpose for which you want to operate with the term "free will".

BelievingIsObeying said:

If everything is determined, what is determining it? If everything is random, why is there order?

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Everything is determined by prior causes. eg: atoms bumping around in the brain. Or the mind is determined by prior mental states and stimuli causing new mental states.

Everything isn't random, but quantum phenomena can appear to be random.

Created beings cannot choose from undetermined possibilities. They choose, but those choices have been determined "before the foundation of the world".

The idea that God comes to know our ideas is the most debilitating arrogance humanity harbors.

The idea that God comes to know our ideas is the core of the sin of pride.

The idea that God comes to know our ideas is infinitely more ridiculous than the idea of an author coming to know her character's ideas.

God is our Author and our Creator, and for those He has love Him and He calls according to His purpose, our Savior.

ThouArtThat said:

An action is considered free, or voluntary, when it is the result of a decision. But if decisions themselves were voluntary, then every decision would be preceded by an infinite regression of decisions to decide, and so no final decision could ever be made.

What are your thoughts on this?

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Decision making is not an action; it comes natural sorta like breathing. Just as you don't have to put fourth any effort to breath, you do not have to put any effort into making choices; it is something that comes natural to all intelligent beings.

K

ThouArtThat said:

An action is considered free, or voluntary, when it is the result of a decision. But if decisions themselves were voluntary, then every decision would be preceded by an infinite regression of decisions to decide, and so no final decision could ever be made.

What are your thoughts on this?

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Actions are not separate from decisions.

bricklayer said:

Created beings cannot choose from undetermined possibilities. They choose, but those choices have been determined "before the foundation of the world".

The idea that God comes to know our ideas is the most debilitating arrogance humanity harbors.

The idea that God comes to know our ideas is the core of the sin of pride.

The idea that God comes to know our ideas is infinitely more ridiculous than the idea of an author coming to know her character's ideas.

God is our Author and our Creator, and for those He has love Him and He calls according to His purpose, our Savior.

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Interesting point. So basically, there is no free will. As any decision made has already been 'authored' before hand.

Crudo89 said:

Interesting point. So basically, there is no free will. As any decision made has already been 'authored' before hand.

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In Christian theism I don't think there can be any free will in a libertarian sense. Certainly compatablist free will, but not libertarian.

brightlights said:

In Christian theism I don't think there can be any free will in a libertarian sense. Certainly compatablist free will, but not libertarian.

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And yet, it is quite popular in Christian theism.

Crudo89 said:

Interesting point. So basically, there is no free will. As any decision made has already been 'authored' before hand.

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So who is this author; God? So did God author the genocide of the Treblinka and Auschwitz consentration camps?

K

Lord Emsworth said:

And yet, it is quite popular in Christian theism.

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It is?

Where did you gather this from?

Ken-1122 said:

So who is this author; God? So did God author the genocide of the Treblinka and Auschwitz consentration camps?

K

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What do you mean by "author"?

We know that the genocide of Treblinka and Auschwitz was carried out by the Nazi Regime.

What is the Nazi Regime?

Was it not a group of people with a certain perception of the Jewish race?

This group of people was composed of individual persons who each gave their consent in killing people because they were a certain race.

This means that each person who supported, either directly, or indirectly the Nazi Regime's machinations were the authors of this horrific work.

Unless one would accept the excuse from them that: "God made me do it."

But clearly God does not condone killing people merely because they are a certain race. So even if this was their excuse, it fails miserably.

Elioenai26 said:

It is?

Where did you gather this from?

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Yes, libertarian free will is quite popular.

The second question is a little bit harder to answer. As usual with such questions. A substantial part comes however from my experience around here, Christianforums. From people's post. The free will defense, for instance, is quite common.

Part from apologists. Platinga, and the free will defense. And doesn't WLC have something about free will in the CA, too? I could swear I remember something like this, I might have even posted a fragment from a clip where he said that. Do you recall anything like that?

And part from various other sources. The Catechism has something on free will, but you have to forgive me that I do not know at this moment what exactly it was. There is however a quote which I already posted on this forum here that does in no uncertain terms say that God has free will, and the context makes clear that it is libertarian. And the RCC is not to shoddy.

A goody, which is fairly easy to show, is the PhilPapers Survey here:
Preliminary Survey results | PhilPapers Surveys
The thing is, that when you filter for all faculties support amongst philosophers for libetarian free will is quite ... reserved:
When you filter for Philosophers of Religion the results look quite different:
Preliminary Survey results | PhilPapers Surveys
57.4% is much higher. The caveat is that there are only 47 respondents, and we don't really know how many of those are Christians. However they are in the target faculty group (Target departments | PhilPapers Surveys). Setting "population" to "all respondents" yields 177 respondents, with 49.2% pro LFW. Look at it yourself, and play with the settings.

Lord Emsworth said:

Yes, libertarian free will is quite popular.

The second question is a little bit harder to answer. As usual with such questions. A substantial part comes however from my experience around here, Christianforums. From people's post. The free will defense, for instance, is quite common.

Part from apologists. Platinga, and the free will defense. And doesn't WLC have something about free will in the CA, too? I could swear I remember something like this, I might have even posted a fragment from a clip where he said that. Do you recall anything like that?

And part from various other sources. The Catechism has something on free will, but you have to forgive me that I do not know at this moment what exactly it was. There is however a quote which I already posted on this forum here that does in no uncertain terms say that God has free will, and the context makes clear that it is libertarian. And the RCC is not to shoddy.

A goody, which is fairly easy to show, is the PhilPapers Survey here:
Preliminary Survey results | PhilPapers Surveys
The thing is, that when you filter for all faculties support amongst philosophers for libetarian free will is quite ... reserved:

Free will: compatibilism, libertarianism, or no free will?
Accept or lean toward: compatibilism 550 / 931 (59.1%)
Other 139 / 931 (14.9%)
Accept or lean toward: libertarianism 128 / 931 (13.7%)
Accept or lean toward: no free will 114 / 931 (12.2%)​

When you filter for Philosophers of Religion the results look quite different:
Preliminary Survey results | PhilPapers Surveys

Free will: compatibilism, libertarianism, or no free will?
Accept or lean toward: libertarianism 27 / 47 (57.4%)
Accept or lean toward: compatibilism 12 / 47 (25.5%)
Accept or lean toward: no free will 5 / 47 (10.6%)
Other 3 / 47 (6.4%)​

57.4% is much higher. The caveat is that there are only 47 respondents, and we don't really know how many of those are Christians. However they are in the target faculty group (Target departments | PhilPapers Surveys). Setting "population" to "all respondents" yields 177 respondents, with 49.2% pro LFW. Look at it yourself, and play with the settings.

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When you said that libertarian free will was popular in Christian Theism, I thought you were referring to Christianity as a whole. I see now you meant specifically, "Philosophers of Religion". This is quite a different audience we are speaking of here.

Elioenai26 said:

When you said that libertarian free will was popular in Christian Theism, I thought you were referring to Christianity as a whole. I see now you meant specifically, "Philosophers of Religion". This is quite a different audience we are speaking of here.

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I did mean Christianity as a whole. The philosophers of religion do come mainly the US and the UK. Look at it: Target departments | PhilPapers Surveys

And it is just one point among others.

Do you have an other opinion? I mean, sure there are a lot of compatibilists too, there are Calvinists etc, but nevertheless LFW is quite popular.

BelievingIsObeying said:

Like broom...I learned a few years ago that one can broom the floor.

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That is possible in English. In my language nouns are always different than verbs. So... The exception that English language makes is not a rule at all.

Upisoft said:

That is possible in English. In my language nouns are always different than verbs. So... The exception that English language makes is not a rule at all.

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Well most languages are different in spelling and grammar, obviously I was referring to English.