Simple statistics and random mutation

TheBeardedDude

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Okay, this is a subject I have thought was quite interesting ever since I first learned of it. I had never really been one to think much about statistics or random vs. non-random prior to only a few years ago when I began to see the value in statistics. There has been some debate on this forum about evolution and randomness and I want to provide some visuals for this subject using some synthetic data I generated in excel using the RAND function.

Description of what I did and how:
I generated a random set of numbers that range in value between 0 and 1, and I generated 2000 of them for each 'population'. There are 2 graphs shown, each with 6 'populations' of randomly generated numbers, but one with selection pressure and the other without. In the upper graph (the selection graph) the blue population (P1) represents the initial random 'population' that I started with. There are 3 phases of selection in the upper graph and these are represented by the color-coded arrows. The first selection pressure is positive for any number >0.5 and negative for any <0.5, selection 2 is positive for any number between 0.5 and 0.95, and the third pressure that is used for P4 through P6 is positive for any value between 0.65 and 0.85. After I "select" each population based on one of the 3 selection pressures, I regenerate the lost portion of the population using the RAND function again to get the population back up to 2000.

For the random graph, each population consists only of random numbers generated anew each time, with no selection of any kind.

What does this show?
There are obvious differences between each of the graphs, that much is obvious. What has been argued on this forum by select individuals in the past is that random mutations could not generate selection pressure that would drive macroevolutionary changes or the formation of new organs (like the eye). This argument comes from the lower graph where random mutations in the population (represented by the numbers 0 through 1) have no effect on the successive populations, that is to say that the random mutations in population 1 have no effect on population 2 etc etc. If selection were random then, there would be no selection for any given mutation or trait, but selection is not random. This is where the upper graph comes in. This time a random set of numbers (mutations) have been generated but I have added in a selection pressure. This means that there is some advantage to a given set of numbers (mutations) and disadvantages to others. Those that fall within a given range (one of the 3 selection pressures I applied) have an increased survival rate and are preferentially selected into the next population (they survive to mate), whereas those outside of this range do not continue on. These detrimental traits/mutations do not disappear wholly from the population because of the nature of genes (recessive, dominant, homozygous, heterozygous), and those that survive and reproduce will still produce offspring with these non-beneficial traits/mutations (the reason why I used the RAND function to boost the population back up to 2000 after each selection event). As you can see, selection pressures drive the population towards some average from P1 to P2 and then the average continues to change after each successive selection event.

What this shows is that those traits/mutations that are beneficial, become represented by a majority of the individuals in the population and those that are not, are on the fringes and at a disadvantage. So, let's apply this to the eye as an example. We start off with the random population, there are those with no traits for the eye (less than 0.5 in this case) and those with traits for the eye (>0.5). These early traits may be things like eyespots on simple eukaryotic cells. There are no nerves connecting these cells to any nervous system or brain, but they provide a different function than those around them, by detecting light. These eyespots are completely random in our population and with no selection pressure, the successive populations would look like graph 2. This may have very well been the case for some time, detecting light for a few billion years may have been unnecessary and conferred no benefit (meaning for a while it might have looked like graph 2). But then something changes, competition for resources escalates and those with eyespots have some advantage, enter selection pressure 1. After this initial selection pressure, the next population is made up of a larger portion of those with eyespots than those without. This continues to escalate into future generations so that those who are more efficient (the selection pressure where I narrow the range of acceptable values) at detecting light are at an advantage again.

Add into this equation millions and billions of years of selection just like this, and the eyespot becomes more efficient as transport of the signal is improved, the location is altered, then they become photosensitive cells, then they process more than just light or no light and can distinguish shapes, then images, then colors, then 3D, etc, etc.

Accumulation of these traits via random mutations with non-random selection pressure is easy to demonstrate. The beneficial mutation need only arise once. After that, selection acts upon it and selection is not random. As it progresses forward in time, efficiency improves and new selection pressures are added onto it. Selection for one trait may inadvertently benefit another trait (like selection for improved efficiency of the eye selects for traits that centralize the cells that process the information collected from the environment). This compounding effect means selection for the eyespot also selects for cells that will later become specialized as nerve cells and those that will later become brain cells. They don't arise all at once, and the ancestral forms of them would have been only slightly better than the ones before it, but better none the less.

It is a gradual process often separated by periods of punctuation. Gradual accumulation of beneficial traits and then some selection event that splinters the population and/or fragments it and reduces the size of the population which enhances the rate at which change occurs (see punctuated equilibrium). So, random processes that are acted upon by non-random processes can confer change over time.
 

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TheBeardedDude

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Loudmouth

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The creationist arguments that mutation does not result in new information and that it is impossible to generate the complex organisms found today through mutation are two of the weakest ones...

The irony is that evolution does not need to produce new information, as defined by creationists, in order to produce the biodiversity we see today. That is the biggest hole in their argument. They try so hard to define information so that mutations and selection can not produce it that they forget to think about the biology itself.

It is a rather simple concept, really. Take any two chunks of orthologous DNA from chimps and humans. Do an alignment. Ask any creationist which of those differences could not be produced the mechanisms of random mutation and selection. I have yet to find a single creationist who can answer that question.
 
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Split Rock

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The creationist arguments that mutation does not result in new information and that it is impossible to generate the complex organisms found today through mutation are two of the weakest ones...

The irony is that evolution does not need to produce new information, as defined by creationists, in order to produce the biodiversity we see today. That is the biggest hole in their argument. They try so hard to define information so that mutations and selection can not produce it that they forget to think about the biology itself.

It is a rather simple concept, really. Take any two chunks of orthologous DNA from chimps and humans. Do an alignment. Ask any creationist which of those differences could not be produced the mechanisms of random mutation and selection. I have yet to find a single creationist who can answer that question.

This is because they cannot define "new information," nor "increase in information." It is all just talking points they themselves don't understand. They just have soem vague idea that its something evolution cannot do because a Creation Ministry website told them so.
 
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Loudmouth

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This is because they cannot define "new information," nor "increase in information."

The only definition I have seen for new information is "whatever evolution can't do".

They just have soem vague idea that its something evolution cannot do because a Creation Ministry website told them so.

Indeed. They don't have to deal with the real world of biology, genetics, anatomy, etc. There are no repurcussions for making outrageous statements that have no tether to the real world. When they are asked to apply their concepts to the real world it falls apart which is why the "new information" mantra can only exist in the creationist echo chamber.
 
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Upisoft

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Hmm, every time where there is dead vs alive outcome (before reproduction and due to difference in genes) there is at least 1 bit new information, which is stored surprisingly on genome. How much information is stored depends on how many organisms survived and how much difference or variation is between their genes.
 
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Gottservant

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Okay, this is a subject I have thought was quite interesting ever since I first learned of it.

[...]

Accumulation of these traits via random mutations with non-random selection pressure is easy to demonstrate. The beneficial mutation need only arise once. After that, selection acts upon it and selection is not random. As it progresses forward in time, efficiency improves and new selection pressures are added onto it. Selection for one trait may inadvertently benefit another trait (like selection for improved efficiency of the eye selects for traits that centralize the cells that process the information collected from the environment). This compounding effect means selection for the eyespot also selects for cells that will later become specialized as nerve cells and those that will later become brain cells. They don't arise all at once, and the ancestral forms of them would have been only slightly better than the ones before it, but better none the less.

It is a gradual process often separated by periods of punctuation. Gradual accumulation of beneficial traits and then some selection event that splinters the population and/or fragments it and reduces the size of the population which enhances the rate at which change occurs (see punctuated equilibrium). So, random processes that are acted upon by non-random processes can confer change over time.

I read this and I don't agree (sorry).

Astronomic probabilities is the problem.

You connect random with non-random, but you fail to explain a mechanism that would engage the transition successfully, that is, stably, persistently, dynamically and robustly.

How does a random success know that it is now successful?

Brain?

How does even a brain know it is a brain if it has never been a brain before?

It just knows?

Ok, I'll leave that be for now.

What about the fact that it needs to "just know" it is the first organ when it hasn't done more than absorb too much information in a cell nuclei, without randomly terminating to save the immune system?

If you don't get what I am saying

Add into this equation millions and billions of years of selection just like this, and the eyespot becomes more efficient as transport of the signal is improved, the location is altered, then they become photosensitive cells, then they process more than just light or no light and can distinguish shapes, then images, then colors, then 3D, etc, etc.

Consider that every part of this process has to be guided to success by something that is aware of the importance of the success of these events the whole time it is trying to survive.

Ego?

If you think that, you've definitely got one.

It's the sheer probability of it, it's ridiculous.

Interesting work, though.

I guess the flipside is if God didn't make us able to reduce our functioning to irreducible systems somehow we would never survive no matter how much He wanted us to.
 
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Lucy Stulz

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How does a random success know that it is now successful?

In the case of evolution it can be passed along to offspring.

As I understand it evolution is little more than a passive filter. A random change that does not confer an advantage to the organism is not likely to be weeded out unless it confers a MALADAPTION. If it causes the recipient to FAIL TO THRIVE it will likely not be passed on.

But even then if it doesn't manifest itself until after reproductive age if it doesn't keep the creature from getting a mate it may very well be passed on.

Consider that every part of this process has to be guided to success by something that is aware of the importance of the success of these events the whole time it is trying to survive.

No, not really. In the case of animals with a given lifespan death is sufficient to act as the filter. Failure to thrive or failure to reproduce will cause the adaptation to be weeded out of the overall population.
 
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Lucy Stulz

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You appear to be repeating me without noting that if nothing can "thrive" in the first place, nothing will come to exist in the first place.

I'm not repeating you. I don't know if you noted but there are a zillion ways for a given living organism to DIE or to FAIL TO REPRODUCE.

Your question of how does an adaptation "know" it is beneficial is meaningless and moot at best. It doesn't have to "know" anything. It is what it is. If it helps the creature survive it gets passed along. If it hurts survival or it keeps the animal from reproducing to pass it along it will be weeded out.

Even "bad adaptations" which do not keep the creature from reproducing can still get passed down to subsequent generations. There are some very nasty genetic disease that don't affect a person until after they have had a chance to reproduce, so they get passed along.

This isn't really "mysterious" in any real way.

Unless one is mystified by a filter and how it works.
 
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