The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

Der Alte · Jul 11, 2013

Evergreen48 said:
That is your opinion, and it is unsupported also. But if you believe that Jesus would have used even pagan mythology in his teachings you have a different opinion of him than I.

You have not proved your assertion that Luke 16:19-31 was pagan mythology or that Jesus used pagan mythology.

As far as the Jewish fable is concerned, take a look at this excerpt from what was believed for several hundred years to be the work of Flavius Josephus

An excerpt from the extract of Flavius Josephus Discourse To the Greeks Concerning Hades.

1. NOW as to Hades, wherein the souls of the of the good things they see, and rejoice in the righteous and unrighteous are detained, it is necessary to speak of it. Hades is a place in the world not regularly finished; a subterraneous region, wherein the light of this world does not shine; from which circumstance, that in this region the light does not shine, it cannot be but there must be in it perpetual darkness. This region is allotted as a place of custody for souls, which angels are appointed as guardians to them, who distribute to them temporary punishments, agreeable to every one's behavior and manners... http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/hades.htm[/U]

This proves that Josephus wrote this but it does not prove that it is a fable or mythology or that it was copied by Christians.

I wonder why you did not quote paragraph 6.

6. For all men, the just as well as the unjust, shall be brought before God the word: for to him hath the Father committed all judgment : and he, in order to fulfill the will of his Father, shall come as Judge, whom we call Christ. For Minos and Rhadamanthus are not the judges, as you Greeks do suppose, but he whom God and the Father hath glorified: concerning whom we have elsewhere given a more particular account, for the sake of those who seek after truth. This person, exercising the righteous judgment of the Father towards all men, hath prepared a just sentence for every one, according to his works; at whose judgment-seat when all men, and angels, and demons shall stand, they will send forth one voice, and say, just is thy judgment; the rejoinder to which will bring a just sentence upon both parties, by giving justly to those that have done well an everlasting fruition; but allotting to the lovers of wicked works eternal punishment. To these belong the unquenchable fire, and that without end, and a certain fiery worm, never dying, and not destroying the body, but continuing its eruption out of the body with never-ceasing grief: neither will sleep give ease to these men, nor will the night afford them comfort; death will not free them from their punishment, nor will the interceding prayers of their kindred profit them; for the just are no longer seen by them, nor are they thought worthy of remembrance. ...

And this brief article from the Encarta Encyclopedia gives a small account of Hades in Greek mythology:

Hades, in Greek mythology, god of the dead. He was the son of the Titans Cronus and Rhea and the brother of Zeus and Poseidon. When the three brothers divided up the universe after they had deposed their father, Cronus, Hades was awarded the underworld. There, with his queen, Persephone, whom he had abducted from the world above, he ruled the kingdom of the dead. Although he was a grim and pitiless god, unappeased by either prayer or sacrifice, he was not evil. In fact, he was known also as Pluto, lord of riches, because both crops and precious metals were believed to come from his kingdom below ground.
The underworld itself was often called Hades. It was divided into two regions: Erebus, where the dead pass as soon as they die, and Tartarus, the deeper region, where the Titans had been imprisoned. It was a dim and unhappy place, inhabited by vague forms and shadows and guarded by Cerberus, the three-headed, dragon-tailed dog. Sinister rivers separated the underworld from the world above, and the aged boatman Charon ferried the souls of the dead across these waters. Somewhere in the darkness of the underworld Hades' palace was located. It was represented as a many-gated, dark and gloomy place, thronged with guests, and set in the midst of shadowy fields and an apparition-haunted landscape. In later legends the underworld is described as the place where the good are rewarded and the wicked punished. -Encarta

Hades - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Where is the part that is supposed to be copied by Christians?

Anyone who is not willingly ignorant of what is so apparent can see the resemblance between what the Jews of Jesus' day believed about Hades and the actual Hades myth.
Where did these people get these outrageous ideas about Hades? It certainly isn't scriptual.

I'd be very careful about throwing around insults such as "willingly ignorant" if I was you. What the Greeks may have believed is not relevant unless you can show specific things which were supposedly copied which cannot be supported from scripture. You have not done that yet.

What is the following from the highly esteemed Hebraist, John Lightfoot's (1602-1675) commentary on John 11 concerning the death of Martha's brother, Lazarus, if it is not myth?

They go to the sepulchres, and visit the dead for three days. Neither are they solicitous lest they should incur the reproach of the Amorites." The story is, They visited a certain person, and he revived again, and lived five-and-twenty years, and then died. They tell of another that lived again, and begot children, and then died.

I would not care to speculate on this unless I can read the entire thing in context. You have a pronounced tendency to quote things out-of-context to make them fit your assumptions/presuppositions.

"It is a tradition of Ben Kaphra's: The very height of mourning is not till the third day. For three days the spirit wanders about the sepulchre, expecting if it may return into the body. But when it sees that the form or aspect of the face is changed, then it hovers no more, but leaves the body to itself."
"They do not certify of the dead" [that this is the very man, and not another] 'but within the three days after his decease': for after three days his countenance is changed."

Same as above.

You've already lost that round, as it has already been resolved that there is always someone who will remember anyone who has died -especially the mother of that person if she is alive at their demise. And besides this the following verses were cited to confirm that God does put the wicked out of his memory.

Isa. 26:13. "O LORD our God, other lords beside thee have had dominion over us: but by thee only will we make mention of thy name. 14. They are dead, they shall not live; they are deceased, they shall not rise: therefore hast thou visited and destroyed them, and made all their memory to perish."

Psa. 88:3. "For my soul is full of troubles: and my life draweth nigh unto the grave. 4.I am counted with them that go down into the pit: I am as a man that hath no strength: 5. Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand."

LOL, Has not man in general sinned? And are you trying to say that he puts only "those who have sinned" (who are described in the foregoing verses) out of his memrory? That's quite comical, Der, but you need to come up with something better than that.

No, it just proves that there is NO CONSCIOUSNESS of anyone after they are dead and in the grave.

As if you didn't already know, it shows that it is God, not man, who remembers those wicked ones NO MORE, just as Job 24:20 teaches.

I proved to you that you were quoting Job 24:20 out-of-context and that it does not say what you claim it does.

"There is no consciousness of anyone after they are dead and in the grave?" In Isaiah 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, and according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, gone! God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in [size=+1]שאול[/size]/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [[size=+1]שאול][/size]/sheol] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.[ . . .]

In the Septuagint Sheol is translated [size=+1]ᾅδης[/size]/hades.

22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babble-on.

Here is another passage where God himself is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [[size=+1]שאול][/size] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

he-man · Jul 11, 2013

Der Alter said:
I already posted the BAG definition of apoleia

Great because BAG says: απώλεια 2 destruction 103c

shturt678 · Jul 11, 2013

Hillsage said:
I wonder if the Spirit led you to pen this opening for me. Pricilla/Aquilla didn't just give Apollos some more 'head knowledge' or 'approved teaching'. They spoke to him of something deeper concerning 'GOD'S WAYS'.

ACT 18:24 And a certain Jew named Apollos,...25...was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently (Gr. exactly) the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John.

So also today we have those who are fervent in the power of their born again spirit. And they too accurately teach the ways of the Lord unto salvation knowing only the baptism of John, who taught a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sins. And yet those same brethren have not the baptism of The Spirit which is subsequent to the baptism of repentance/John.

ACT 18:26 And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

And what 'WAY of God' did they make Apollos aware of???? Well, just a couple of verses later I believe Paul tells us what that impacting 'WAY' was/is.

ACT 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.

Here again the question isn't did you receive WHEN you believed, but SINCE becoming a born again repentance baptized believer just like Apollos was a mere 5 verses earlier.

I see the wisdom of the Spirit's unction-ing, in how these verses were inspired and woven closely together into scripture...even though the hand of translators put an unfortunate chapter break in, causing the subtlety shared, to be easily missed...all IMO...of course. There is also much more subtlety still unshared here too.

I have a little different understanding of the former, not that I'm correct, but foremost just wanted to share that you and I definitely have a different "way" and a different "born again," again not that I'm correct.

Again, thank you again my friend. :amen:

Der Alte · Jul 11, 2013

he-man said:
Great because BAG says: απώλεια 2 destruction 103c

Incorrect! That is only the index listing. Here is the full definition from BAG online. With a link.

[size=+1]απώλεια[/size], a", hJ (Demades [IV BC ] in the sense loss; later writers; inscr. , pap. , oft. LX X; En. ; Test. 12 Patr. ) destruction.
1. trans ., the destruction that one causes, waste ( Polyb. 6, 11a, 10 opp. thvrhsi" ; PTebt. 276, 34) eij" tiv hJ aj. au{th t. muvrou ; why this waste of the ointment? Mk 14:4 ; cf. Mt 26:8 .
2. intrans. the destruction that one experiences, annihilation both complete and in process, ruin (so usu. LX X; Ep. Arist. 167; Philo , Aet. M. 20; 74; Jos. , Ant. 15, 62, Vi. 272; Test. Dan 4:5; but also in Polyb. , Plut. , Epict. et al. [ Nägeli 35]; Diod. S. 15, 48, 1 with fqorav ; Herm. Wr. 12, 16; PGM 4, 1247 f paradivdwmi se eij" to; mevlan cavo" ejn t. ajpwleivai" ) Ac 25:16 t.r .; (w. o[leqron) buqivzein eij" o[. kai; aj. plunge into utter destruction 1 Ti 6:9 ; ei\nai eij" aj. perish Ac 8:20 (Da 2:5 and 3:96 Theod.
); pro;" t. ijdivan aujtw`n aj. to their own ruin 2 Pt 3:16 ; ( w. plavnh ) 2 Cl 1:7. Esp. of eternal destruction as punishment for the wicked: Mt 7:13 ; eij" aj. uJpavgein go to destr. Rv 17:8 , 11 . ( Opp. peripoivhsi" yuch`" ) Hb 10:39 . ( Opp. swthriva ) Phil 1:28 . hJmevra krivsew" kai; ajpwleiva" (Job 21:30 ) t. ajsebw`n ajnqrwvpwn day of judgment and (consequent) destruction of wicked men 2 Pt 3:7 . Hence the end of the wicked is described as aj. Phil 3:19 . skeuvh ojrgh`", kathrtismevna eij" aj. objects of ( his ) anger, ready for destruction Ro 9:22 (Is 54:16 ). It will come quickly 2 Pt 2:1 , is not sleeping vs. 3. Appears as a consequence of death (cf. Job 28 , 22 ): oJ qavnato" aj. e[cei aijwvnion Hs 6, 2, 4; God laughs at it 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26 ). Those destined to destruction are uiJoi; th`" aj. J 17:12 ; AP 1:2. The Antichrist is also uiJo;" th`" aj. 2 Th 2:3 . aiJrevsei" ajpwleiva" heresies that lead to destr. 2 Pt 2:1 ; dovgmata th`" aj. AP 1:1. M-M. *

Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek online

In these vss. [size=+1]απώλεια[/size], is used for wasted ointment, Mat 26:8, Mar 14:4; Evil men, sons of perdition/destruction, Jn 17:12, 2 Th 2:3; Roman execution, Ac 25:16; Mans evil way, 2 Pet 2:2. If you want it to mean something else you will have to prove it.

Timothew · Jul 12, 2013

Der Alter said:
If you want it to mean something else you will have to prove it.

[SIZE=+1]απώλεια means destruction.[/SIZE]

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2013

Timothew said:
[SIZE=+1]απώλεια means destruction.[/SIZE]

In these vss. [SIZE="+1"]απώλεια[/SIZE], is used for wasted ointment, Mat 26:8, Mar 14:4; Evil men, sons of perdition/destruction, Jn 17:12, 2 Th 2:3; Roman execution, Ac 25:16; Mans evil way, 2 Pet 2:2. If you want it to mean something else you will have to prove it. Repetition does not prove your assertions.

Timothew · Jul 12, 2013

Der Alter said:
In these vss. [SIZE=+1]απώλεια[/SIZE], is used for wasted ointment, Mat 26:8, Mar 14:4; Evil men, sons of perdition/destruction, Jn 17:12, 2 Th 2:3; Roman execution, Ac 25:16; Mans evil way, 2 Pet 2:2. If you want it to mean something else you will have to prove it. Repetition does not prove your assertions.

Those are not the verses that say the penalty is destruction.
Look at Matthew 10:28. The meaning of ἀπολέσαι is clearly destroy, not "losing something". Fear the one who is able to lose both body and soul in Gehenna? Excuse me please. The same word is used in Matt 2:13. You are trying to deny that this means destroy. Did Herod want to "lose" Jesus? Was he seeking the child in order to lose him? Were they playing Hide and Seek? (Sorry, I couldn't resist!) I believe that Herod wanted to murder Jesus. He wanted to destroy him. That is what the word means. No matter how much you deny it, you can't change it. I am only repeating the truth because you keep denying it, not because I think that repetition will prove my assertion.

he-man · Jul 12, 2013

Der Alter said:
Incorrect! That is only the index listing. Here is the full definition from BAG online. With a link..

That is exactly what I posted from the BAG INDEX PAGE 103
απώλεια, a", hJ (Demades [IV BC ] in the sense loss; later writers; inscr. , pap. , oft. LX X; En. ; Test. 12 Patr. ) destruction.
1. trans ., the destruction that one causes, waste ( Polyb. 6, 11a, 10 opp. thvrhsi" ; PTebt. 276, 34) eij" tiv hJ aj. au{th t. muvrou ; why this waste of the ointment? Mk 14:4 ; cf. Mt 26:8 .
2. intrans. the destruction that one experiences, annihilation both complete and in process, ruin

Timothew · Jul 12, 2013

Der Alter said:
Roman execution, Ac 25:16;...

How does "Roman execution" prove that apoleia does not really mean destruction? It seems like you are really stretching, you aren't helping you case. You should just admit that apoleia often does mean destruction.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2013

Timothew said:
Those are not the verses that say the penalty is destruction.
Look at Matthew 10:28. The meaning of ἀπολέσαι is clearly destroy, not "losing something". Fear the one who is able to lose both body and soul in Gehenna? Excuse me please. The same word is used in Matt 2:13. You are trying to deny that this means destroy. Did Herod want to "lose" Jesus? Was he seeking the child in order to lose him? Were they playing Hide and Seek? (Sorry, I couldn't resist!) I believe that Herod wanted to murder Jesus. He wanted to destroy him. That is what the word means. No matter how much you deny it, you can't change it. I am only repeating the truth because you keep denying it, not because I think that repetition will prove my assertion.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy [[SIZE="+1"]ἀπόλλυμι[/SIZE]] both soul and body in hell.

The word I was discussing was [size=+1]απώλεια[/size]/apoleia not [SIZE="+1"]ἀπολέσαι[/SIZE]/apolesai. And as I said apoleia is used for wasted ointment, Mat 26:8, Mar 14:4; Evil men, sons of perdition/destruction, Jn 17:12, 2 Th 2:3; Roman execution, Ac 25:16; Man’s evil way, 2 Pet 2:2. In none of these verses is apoleai translated “lose.” The word translated destroy in Mat 2:13 is apolesai not apoleia.

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Hillsage · Jul 12, 2013

shturt678 said:
I have a little different understanding of the former, not that I'm correct, but foremost just wanted to share that you and I definitely have a different "way" and a different "born again," again not that I'm correct. Again, thank you again my friend.

Something is bound to be different ultimately for all who aren't simply pew warmers IMO. Even in the doctrinally staunch and rigid churches, when I get a 'parishioner' alone, they confess lack of belief in some 'point' their church is adamant about.

So whether you were spiritually born via C-section or vaginal doesn't really matter to me. ^_^

What really matters is were you born...from above. I do have a question though; Were you born/raised in the Lutheran church? I was born/raised Catholic, but 'in hindsight' I consider those 21 years as more of a 'religious' experience than a 'spiritual reality'. But I fellowship today with Catholics who I believe are born from above...and a few of them even speak in tongues.

Raimi Stranger · Jul 12, 2013

If you have any respect for Jesus' words then please stop wasting your time arguing with sinners ... die to sin, repent, and God will teach you Himself as Jesus died to bring you...

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Satan's offer of salvation as a sinner might seem attractive, but it is not true...

shturt678 · Jul 12, 2013

Hillsage said:
Something is bound to be different ultimately for all who aren't simply pew warmers IMO. Even in the doctrinally staunch and rigid churches, when I get a 'parishioner' alone, they confess lack of belief in some 'point' their church is adamant about.

So whether you were spiritually born via C-section or vaginal doesn't really matter to me. What really matters is were you born...from above. I do have a question though; Were you born/raised in the Lutheran church? I was born/raised Catholic, but 'in hindsight' I consider those 21 years as more of a 'religious' experience than a 'spiritual reality'. But I fellowship today with Catholics who I believe are born from above...and a few of them even speak in tongues.

At least we can agree to agree that I'm a sinner. Like to agree whenever possible. Parents alcoholics and pretty much grew up on the streets where Christians were the ones that hurt me. Came into Christianity via Fundamental Baptists who were the antithesis of hurting me, ie, were really there for me. Graduated with the languages and had to redo the whole thing through the Lutheran - modern ELCA. Had to dump all that too and ended up with nothing, but Jesus, ie, full circle (no really complaints as GI Bill and side jobs got me through without having to pay back any loans).

I'm an unusual ol' old non-modern Lutheran as those that don't like me too will, a litotes, I've always had an easy time agaping them; give me a warm Christian hug like you tend to do once in awhile, rips my inside out, but I can handle, ie, continue the good work. :amen:

Little word of discouragement, ie, Jn.3:3 needs to be interpreted contextually and grammatically in the ball park or it's a forever gong show. My end point: "born anew" time wise and not born "from above." Might as well let this go as only as the tip of an iceberg. First and foremost get in the Kingdom of God then die to sin, ie, most don't realize it's the power of sin and not just sin in general. As a thread end point: I've always enjoyed Jn.5:24, 25 "the death," a specific death here meant, namely spiritually death that ends in eternal death of course. Sinner Jack signing off for now.

Der Alte · Jul 12, 2013

he-man said:
That is exactly what I posted from the BAG INDEX PAGE 103
απώλεια, a", hJ (Demades [IV BC ] in the sense loss; later writers; inscr. , pap. , oft. LX X; En. ; Test. 12 Patr. ) destruction.
1. trans ., the destruction that one causes, waste ( Polyb. 6, 11a, 10 opp. thvrhsi" ; PTebt. 276, 34) eij" tiv hJ aj. au{th t. muvrou ; why this waste of the ointment? Mk 14:4 ; cf. Mt 26:8 .
2. intrans. the destruction that one experiences, annihilation both complete and in process, ruin

Incorrect! This what you posted from the BAG index,

he-man said:
. . .
13 άτrάγω 3 lead away 79d
απώλεια 2 destruction 103c. . .

Here is what I posted from the lexical entry from BAG..

Der Alter said:
Incorrect! That is only the index listing. Here is the full definition from BAG online. With a link.

[size=+1]απώλεια
, a", hJ (Demades [IV BC ] in the sense loss; later writers; inscr. , pap. , oft. LX X; En. ; Test. 12 Patr. ) destruction.
1. trans ., the destruction that one causes, waste ( Polyb. 6, 11a, 10 opp. thvrhsi" ; PTebt. 276, 34) eij" tiv hJ aj. au{th t. muvrou ; why this waste of the ointment? Mk 14:4 ; cf. Mt 26:8 .
2. intrans. the destruction that one experiences, annihilation both complete and in process, ruin (so usu. LX X; Ep. Arist. 167; Philo , Aet. M. 20; 74; Jos. , Ant. 15, 62, Vi. 272; Test. Dan 4:5; but also in Polyb. , Plut. , Epict. et al. [ Nägeli 35]; Diod. S. 15, 48, 1 with fqorav ; Herm. Wr. 12, 16; PGM 4, 1247 f paradivdwmi se eij" to; mevlan cavo" ejn t. ajpwleivai" ) Ac 25:16 t.r .; (w. o[leqron) buqivzein eij" o[. kai; aj. plunge into utter destruction 1 Ti 6:9 ; ei\nai eij" aj. perish Ac 8:20 (Da 2:5 and 3:96 Theod.
); pro;" t. ijdivan aujtw`n aj. to their own ruin 2 Pt 3:16 ; ( w. plavnh ) 2 Cl 1:7. Esp. of eternal destruction as punishment for the wicked: Mt 7:13 ; eij" aj. uJpavgein go to destr. Rv 17:8 , 11 . ( Opp. peripoivhsi" yuch`" ) Hb 10:39 . ( Opp. swthriva ) Phil 1:28 . hJmevra krivsew" kai; ajpwleiva" (Job 21:30 ) t. ajsebw`n ajnqrwvpwn day of judgment and (consequent) destruction of wicked men 2 Pt 3:7 . Hence the end of the wicked is described as aj. Phil 3:19 . skeuvh ojrgh`", kathrtismevna eij" aj. objects of ( his ) anger, ready for destruction Ro 9:22 (Is 54:16 ). It will come quickly 2 Pt 2:1 , is not sleeping vs. 3. Appears as a consequence of death (cf. Job 28 , 22 ): oJ qavnato" aj. e[cei aijwvnion Hs 6, 2, 4; God laughs at it 1 Cl 57:4 (Pr 1:26 ). Those destined to destruction are uiJoi; th`" aj. J 17:12 ; AP 1:2. The Antichrist is also uiJo;" th`" aj. 2 Th 2:3 . aiJrevsei" ajpwleiva" heresies that lead to destr. 2 Pt 2:1 ; dovgmata th`" aj. AP 1:1. M-M. *

Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich Lexicon of NT Greek online

In these vss. [size=+1]απώλεια[/size], is used for wasted ointment, Mat 26:8, Mar 14:4; Evil men, sons of perdition/destruction, Jn 17:12, 2 Th 2:3; Roman execution, Ac 25:16; Mans evil way, 2 Pet 2:2. If you want it to mean something else you will have to prove it.[/size]

Big difference. You seem to only see one word "destruction" and ignore the rest of the definition.

Hillsage · Jul 12, 2013

shturt678 said:
Came into Christianity via Fundamental Baptists

Thank God for the Baptists. I've heard lots of brethren enter from their work.

I'm an unusual ol' old non-modern Lutheran as those that don't like me too will, a litotes,

You graduating with languages sure doesn't mean any of the rest of us have....a litotes????

I've always had an easy time agaping them; give me a warm Christian hug like you tend to do once in awhile, rips my inside out,

I'm not known for 'hugging' that hard.

Little word of discouragement, ie, Jn.3:3 needs to be interpreted contextually and grammatically in the ball park or it's a forever gong show.

I'm always open to correction...which is 'encouraging'. No sense dying alone with 'the truth' is there?

My end point: "born anew" time wise and not born "from above."

Small matter either/or, still a big event though IMO.

Might as well let this go as only as the tip of an iceberg. First and foremost get in the Kingdom of God then die to sin, ie, most don't realize it's the power of sin and not just sin in general.

Cleanest water in the world though, preceded all the pollution, don't you know? Yep, there's sin and then there's sins.

he-man · Jul 13, 2013

Der Alter said:
Incorrect! This what you posted from the BAG index, Here is what I posted from the lexical entry from BAG..Big difference. You seem to only see one word "destruction" and ignore the rest of the definition.

Big differance? Technically, here are all the meanings of the word if you know any Greek so why do you refuse to recognize destruction. Wastage is destruction!

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]G684 απώλεια, perdition; destruction, annihilation[/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif], [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma, sans-serif]casualty, wastage, bereavement, deprivation, loss wastage[/FONT][/FONT]

Timothew · Jul 13, 2013

Der Alter said:
Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy [[SIZE=+1]ἀπόλλυμι[/SIZE]] both soul and body in hell.
The word I was discussing was [SIZE=+1]απώλεια[/SIZE]/apoleia not [SIZE=+1]ἀπολέσαι[/SIZE]/apolesai. And as I said apoleia is used for wasted ointment, Mat 26:8, Mar 14:4; Evil men, sons of perdition/destruction, Jn 17:12, 2 Th 2:3; Roman execution, Ac 25:16; Mans evil way, 2 Pet 2:2. In none of these verses is apoleai translated lose. The word translated destroy in Mat 2:13 is apolesai not apoleia.

Mat 2:13 And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.

Nice try.

καὶ μὴ φοβηθῆτε ἀπὸ τῶν ἀποκτεινόντων τὸ σῶμα, τὴν δὲ ψυχὴν μὴ δυνάμενων ἀποκτεῖναι· φοβεῖσθε δὲ μᾶλλον τὸν δυνάμενον καὶ ψυχὴν καὶ σῶμα ἀπολέσαι ἐν γεέννῃ.

Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Instead, fear the one who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

So Jesus did not believe that body and soul would remain undestroyed forever in hell, He believed that body and soul would be destroyed in Gehenna. So either Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Very God of Very God, Begotten not made - is wrong...

Or you are.

Rescued One · Jul 13, 2013

Dead is what we were before regeneration. We still existed.

shturt678 · Jul 13, 2013

Hillsage said:
Thank God for the Baptists. I've heard lots of brethren enter from their work.

You graduating with languages sure doesn't mean any of the rest of us have....a litotes????

I'm not known for 'hugging' that hard.

I'm always open to correction...which is 'encouraging'. No sense dying alone with 'the truth' is there?

Small matter either/or, still a big event though IMO.
Cleanest water in the world though, preceded all the pollution, don't you know? Yep, there's sin and then there's sins.

Hillsage · Jul 13, 2013

Phoebe Ann said:
Dead is what we were before regeneration. We still existed.

Dead man walking??? Still a living breathing spirit/soul/body man.
:amen:

and

"This my son, who was dead, is alive again." (The Prodigal son)
But, neither simple or single definitions, will ever plumb the depths of this discussion in the bible IMO.

IOW dead is what we were, and dead is what we are, and dead is what we will be until all that which is mortal (capable of death) is swallowed up in life....IMO of course.

The wages of sin is DEATH, not eternal torment in Hell.

This is me about 1 yr. old.

he-man

Senior Veteran

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Conditionalist

This is me about 1 yr. old.

Conditionalist

he-man

Conditionalist

This is me about 1 yr. old.

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

Raimi Stranger

Guest

Senior Veteran

This is me about 1 yr. old.

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

he-man

Conditionalist

...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

Senior Veteran

One 4 Him & Him 4 all

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