No Secret Rapture? -Nope!

ebedmelech

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I was answering Zeke, not you. The scripture we are discussion was the "explicit" one I was speaking of.
Ok...My bad...but I'm in it now...^_^
But as to explicitly stated scripture, in Revelation 3:10 the saints in Philadelphia are promised, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” The Greek word translated from in this passage is ek, (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek dictionary.) Its normal meaning is from in the sense of away from or out of.

But what is it that these faithful saints are promised to be kept away from or out of? It is “the hour of trial.” The Greek word translated hour in this passage is hora. (word number 5610 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means hour, but is often used figuratively for a period of time. But what hour are they promised to be kept away from or out of? It is not just some general period of time. It is a specific one. It is “the hour of trial.” But even this “hour of trial” is not just some general “hour of trial.” It is specifically referred to as “the hour.” Yes, the word “the” is in the Greek, as the word tou. (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) But what “hour of trial” are they promised to be kept away from or out of? It is “the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”

There is an “hour of trial” coming “to test those who dwell on the earth.” When we see the reason this hour is coming we understand the term “hour of trial.” For the Greek word translated trial here does not mean, or even imply, trouble. It is not described as “the hour of trouble,” but as “the hour of testing.” For testing is the literal meaning of the Greek word translated trial in this verse. That Greek word is peirasmos. (word number 3986 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) So we see that this scripture explicitly tells us that there is a particular time of testing coming, and that the purpose of that time is “to test those who dwell on the earth.”

But this passage tells us more than just that this coming time is a specific time of testing. It also tells us where this time of testing will come. It “shall come upon the whole world.” Again, we need to notice that the Greek word translated whole in this clause is holos. (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means whole, or all, that is, complete. That is, there is no part of the world that will be exempted from this time of testing.

So we see that there is a specific time of testing coming, and it is coming upon the whole world. But the faithful are promised that they will be kept away from or out of this time of testing. Now if this time is coming upon the whole world, but the faithful will be kept away from or out of it, they cannot be in the world during that time of testing.

Now some want to pretend that the Greek word ek only means out of in the sense of first being in it, and then being brought out of it. But this Greek word simply does not mean, or even imply, being safely brought through this time. Ek most definitely does not mean through. It means away from or out of.

In this line we need to remember a parallel passage in which the Holy Spirit said, “then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” (2 Peter 2:9) The Greek words translated out of and temptations in this verse are the same ek and peirasmos used by the Holy Spirit to describe the keeping of the faithful out of or away from the hour of testing in Revelation 3:10. So we see that these two scriptures refer to the same future act of God.

You should be a lawyer Biblewriter! To take Rev 3:10 as a rapture really is a stretch.

The passage interprets itself and it has NOTHING to do with a rapture! Christ doesn't say HOW he will "keep" them."Keep" as it's used here is only meaning they will maintain their faith through whatever they encounter.

That would be in line with how God enables us to endure temptation in 1 Corinthians 10:13
13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

You're doing as I said..."contriving" the scriptures.
 
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zeke37

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I was answering Zeke, not you. The scripture we are discussion was the "explicit" one I was speaking of.

But as to explicitly stated scripture, in Revelation 3:10 the saints in Philadelphia are promised, “Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.” The Greek word translated from in this passage is ek, (word number 1537 in Strong’s Greek dictionary.) Its normal meaning is from in the sense of away from or out of.

irrelevant
both sides of the argument can use ek in their answers, as we have seen

But what is it that these faithful saints are promised to be kept away from or out of? It is “the hour of trial.” The Greek word translated hour in this passage is hora. (word number 5610 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means hour, but is often used figuratively for a period of time. But what hour are they promised to be kept away from or out of? It is not just some general period of time. It is a specific one. It is “the hour of trial.” But even this “hour of trial” is not just some general “hour of trial.” It is specifically referred to as “the hour.” Yes, the word “the” is in the Greek, as the word tou. (word number 3588 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) But what “hour of trial” are they promised to be kept away from or out of? It is “the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.”
simply put, if u remain faithful, then u are kept from failing the test
the "trial" is not for those God is not mad at
so if God is not mad at you, then we can be right here, on earth, during that time,
and still be kept from it
empowered

in the Philly letter, there are things that have to be accomplished by the overcomers during that time.
u seem to ignore them
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
There is an “hour of trial” coming “to test those who dwell on the earth.” When we see the reason this hour is coming we understand the term “hour of trial.” For the Greek word translated trial here does not mean, or even imply, trouble. It is not described as “the hour of trouble,” but as “the hour of testing.” For testing is the literal meaning of the Greek word translated trial in this verse. That Greek word is peirasmos. (word number 3986 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) So we see that this scripture explicitly tells us that there is a particular time of testing coming, and that the purpose of that time is “to test those who dwell on the earth.”
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.


12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.


5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:


12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.


8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

But this passage tells us more than just that this coming time is a specific time of testing. It also tells us where this time of testing will come. It “shall come upon the whole world.” Again, we need to notice that the Greek word translated whole in this clause is holos. (word number 3650 in Strong’s Greek Dictionary) This Greek word literally means whole, or all, that is, complete. That is, there is no part of the world that will be exempted from this time of testing.

So we see that there is a specific time of testing coming, and it is coming upon the whole world. But the faithful are promised that they will be kept away from or out of this time of testing. Now if this time is coming upon the whole world, but the faithful will be kept away from or out of it, they cannot be in the world during that time of testing.
they can if they are here, but not a part of THIS world
which IS the point

here on earth, but with our minds on the heavenly things

Now some want to pretend that the Greek word ek only means out of in the sense of first being in it, and then being brought out of it. But this Greek word simply does not mean, or even imply, being safely brought through this time. Ek most definitely does not mean through. It means away from or out of.
either from or out of, mean u have to be in it first
how can u say otherwise?

they CAME OUT OF Great Trib
they are KEPT FROM it, iow, not participating with the beast.


In this line we need to remember a parallel passage in which the Holy Spirit said, “then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment.” (2 Peter 2:9) The Greek words translated out of and temptations in this verse are the same ek and peirasmos used by the Holy Spirit to describe the keeping of the faithful out of or away from the hour of testing in Revelation 3:10. So we see that these two scriptures refer to the same future act of God.

actually, this point goes against your theory
because Lot was not taken off the planet,
but rather simply removed from the situation

ie, flee when Jerusalem is surrounded
 
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Manasseh_

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KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

Every use of the Word "Tribulation" in the NT means "sufferings" and has Nothing to do with a timed period... Such as Daniel 9:27


Even though people refer to this time as the tribulation - it should be called the apocalypse or Daniel 70th week even which is 7 years... This replacement has cause this error in the words use...

hogwash...............Christ defined the great tribulation as a time of trouble so bad that if God didn't intervene mankind would annihilate life from the planet, ............a word is also defined by what context it's used in and in this case the context is clearly defined as a time that can't be compared to any other time in man's history and a time that God must directly intervene and "cut it short" for reasons stated

and the basic meaning of apocalypse isn't the proper word, this greek word in it's simple form means to uncover or to disclose...........the biblical use would pertain to the truth..whether to disclose the truth by direct means or by prophecy

this further proves how far the pretrib camp will reach attempting to defend this false doctrine

you have no authority to change words or definitions of words and languages and definitely none to change the context of a prophecy given by God
 
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Manasseh_

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Your rank assumption is that the Lord is only going to return one time. You cannot produce even one scripture that says that, for there is no such scripture.

I am not going to argue with you, for I have already presented extensive evidence that He will return more than just once.


peat and repeat............I gave explicit verses that say he comes at an appointed time and it's after tribulation , the only thing you can do is reject them because it's you and your false doctrine that has NOT ONE explicit verse that says Christ comes before the great tribulation

hence you can't possibly present "extensive evidence" simply because it doesn't exist in the first place...........no amount of ranting on your part will ever change that facts
 
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Biblewriter

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peat and repeat............I gave explicit verses that say he comes at an appointed time and it's after tribulation , the only thing you can do is reject them because it's you and your false doctrine that has NOT ONE explicit verse that says Christ comes before the great tribulation

hence you can't possibly present "extensive evidence" simply because it doesn't exist in the first place...........no amount of ranting on your part will ever change that facts

I gave explicit scripture in post #36.
 
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Biblewriter

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You should be a lawyer Biblewriter! To take Rev 3:10 as a rapture really is a stretch.

The passage interprets itself and it has NOTHING to do with a rapture! Christ doesn't say HOW he will "keep" them."Keep" as it's used here is only meaning they will maintain their faith through whatever they encounter.

That would be in line with how God enables us to endure temptation in 1 Corinthians 10:13
13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

You're doing as I said..."contriving" the scriptures.

Actually, I worked as a legal draftsman (paralegal) for a number of years.

But aside from that, There is absolutely no way to twist "I will keep you out of the hour" To "I will keep you through the hour."

Ek does not mean. or imply, "through" it means, and explicitly means,"out of."
 
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Manasseh_

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I gave explicit scripture in post #36.

first you said you weren't going to argue about this now you're doing exactly what you said you wouldn't do

and you said you gave "EXTENSIVE EVIDENCE", one verse in post 36 isn't quite the same as what you exagerate...........

and let's look at this verse

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

here's what's missing

before or after tribulation isn't mentioned
no mention by Christ that he would come before tribulation began
no mention by Christ that he would gather his saints before tribulation began

but you assumed all of that into this one single verse, now this is what we call assumption, it doesn't explicitly say it but after you added your pretrib asssumption you make it say that

doesn't work that way ,..........what's even more sad is the fact I can do this with EVERY verse pretribbers use as proof text because , repeating again, you don't have ONE SINGLE VERSE that explicitly says Christ returns before tribulation ..............you have to do this with every verse you use......truth doesn't come by assumption , it comes by what God's written word says has and will happen
 
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ebedmelech

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Actually, I worked as a legal draftsman (paralegal) for a number of years.

But aside from that, There is absolutely no way to twist "I will keep you out of the hour" To "I will keep you through the hour."

Ek does not mean. or imply, "through" it means, and explicitly means,"out of."
Sure there is Biblewriter!

Zeke showed you in his post!

First off let's look at the whole passage in a few versions:
Rev 3:10 (NASB)
10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Young's Literal Translation:
10 `Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

Complete Jewish Bible:
10 Because you did obey my message about persevering, I will keep you from the time of trial coming upon the whole world to put the people living on earth to the test.

NIV:
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

KJV:
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Please show where it says they will be "caught up" as you "pre-trib rapturists" like to say, Where does it say that?

Let's deal with that...because this is what I mean by "contriving"...you're making the passage say something it doesn't say.

Where's your rapture??? This is the issue! You're saying this is a rapture.
 
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Biblewriter

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Sure there is Biblewriter!

Zeke showed you in his post!

First off let's look at the whole passage in a few versions:
Rev 3:10 (NASB)
10 Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth.

Young's Literal Translation:
10 `Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.

Complete Jewish Bible:
10 Because you did obey my message about persevering, I will keep you from the time of trial coming upon the whole world to put the people living on earth to the test.

NIV:
10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

KJV:
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Please show where it says they will be "caught up" as you "pre-trib rapturists" like to say, Where does it say that?

Let's deal with that...because this is what I mean by "contriving"...you're making the passage say something it doesn't say.

Where's your rapture??? This is the issue! You're saying this is a rapture.

"Keep you from" does not mean "protect you through." It means "keep you out of."
 
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Biblewriter

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first you said you weren't going to argue about this now you're doing exactly what you said you wouldn't do

and you said you gave "EXTENSIVE EVIDENCE", one verse in post 36 isn't quite the same as what you exagerate...........

and let's look at this verse

Revelation 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

here's what's missing

before or after tribulation isn't mentioned
no mention by Christ that he would come before tribulation began
no mention by Christ that he would gather his saints before tribulation began

but you assumed all of that into this one single verse, now this is what we call assumption, it doesn't explicitly say it but after you added your pretrib asssumption you make it say that

doesn't work that way ,..........what's even more sad is the fact I can do this with EVERY verse pretribbers use as proof text because , repeating again, you don't have ONE SINGLE VERSE that explicitly says Christ returns before tribulation ..............you have to do this with every verse you use......truth doesn't come by assumption , it comes by what God's written word says has and will happen


As to your decrying the lack of a single verse that explicitly says Christ returns before the tribulation, There was not even a single verse in the Old Testament that ever, even once, said that Messiah would come more than once. But there were many that showed He would come more than once by presenting detains that would have been contradictions of He were only coming once.

In post #9 I linked to a thread in which I previously gave the extensive evidence I spoke of, that in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit did exactly what He did in the Old Testament. Although He never said Jesus would return more than a single time, He gave numerous details that would be contradictions if He were only coming once.

And although Revelation 3:10 does not say Jesus would come before the hour of testing, it explicitly says He will "keep" his own "out of" that "hour."
 
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ebedmelech

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"Keep you from" does not mean "protect you through." It means "keep you out of."
I doesn't mean "rapture you out" either" Biblewriter.

What you're doing is very bad interpretation of scripture. How Jesus "keeps" them is not given...but the fact that He will keep them is where one simply has to trust in Christ.

To contrive that into meaning a rapture is just wrong.
 
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Manasseh_

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And although Revelation 3:10 does not say Jesus would come before the hour of testing, it explicitly says He will "keep" his own "out of" that "hour."


see, now you admit that this verse doesn't say it............now the question rises.........so why do pretribbers so often use this verse attempting to prove a return before tribulation and again the answer is simple because you don't have any verses with explicit statements, you have no solid foundation at all for this doctrine, the whole thing is built on the first assumption instead of what the scriptures are actually saying...........a lie built on begging the question, circular reasoning and not truth

the whole pretrib argument in a nutshell is that what you are attempting to prove is already true (the first assumption) and pretribbers want non-pretribbers to automatically concede this first assumption, that's the begging the question part and the circular reasoning follows

1st Premise.......Christ returns before tribulation to gather saints
2nd premise......verses like Rev 3:10 are used although they don't say it
conclusion.......Christ returns before tribulation , not because these verses say it but because the first premise says so

so you have no explicit verses
the doctrine is based on assumption
begging the question
circular reasoning

it leaves any sound minded person asking why do so many believe this doctrine when it's based on nothing but a suggestion to begin with
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Everyone all over the world will hear the trumpets sound for the gathering together of the saints of God. The first trump of the two, together, will call the bodies of the dead in Christ to rise from the graves to be united with the souls of the same regenerated bodies; immediately with no break, the second trump of the two trumpets typed in Numbers 10 to sound the call for the gathering of the entire congregation of YHWH to gather together before His temple door, will blast out and be heard all over the world, and the living saints will rise to meet with the resurrected dead in Christ and they will all stand before the door of God's temple in the heavens, and be told to "come in, shut the doors behind you and hide in your chambers here for a little while, while the tribulation be past.

The world will hear the trumpets sound twice together. The graves will open, the bodies will rise, and the living saints world wide will rise to met them in the heavens before the temple door -and they all go in to be with Christ where He is, and celebrate their consecration to the heavenly priesthood in the New Man name, as His adopted sons, for a full week of celebration as the living oracles teach in Leviticus chapter 8.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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As to your decrying the lack of a single verse that explicitly says Christ returns before the tribulation, There was not even a single verse in the Old Testament that ever, even once, said that Messiah would come more than once. But there were many that showed He would come more than once by presenting detains that would have been contradictions of He were only coming once.

In post #9 I linked to a thread in which I previously gave the extensive evidence I spoke of, that in the New Testament, the Holy Spirit did exactly what He did in the Old Testament. Although He never said Jesus would return more than a single time, He gave numerous details that would be contradictions if He were only coming once.

And although Revelation 3:10 does not say Jesus would come before the hour of testing, it explicitly says He will "keep" his own "out of" that "hour."
Those who claim that Jesus does not appear until after the tribulation err many times, beginning with their own error of saying no pre-trib rapture, and go right on erring because He is seen in the heavens over Jerusalem, fighting for her....and that is not when He comes down to take up residence on earth.
There will be many signs in the heavens before He touches down and sets up His kingdom....and those left behind, who live on, will witness them.
 
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Biblewriter

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see, now you admit that this verse doesn't say it............now the question rises.........so why do pretribbers so often use this verse attempting to prove a return before tribulation and again the answer is simple because you don't have any verses with explicit statements, you have no solid foundation at all for this doctrine, the whole thing is built on the first assumption instead of what the scriptures are actually saying...........a lie built on begging the question, circular reasoning and not truth

the whole pretrib argument in a nutshell is that what you are attempting to prove is already true (the first assumption) and pretribbers want non-pretribbers to automatically concede this first assumption, that's the begging the question part and the circular reasoning follows

1st Premise.......Christ returns before tribulation to gather saints
2nd premise......verses like Rev 3:10 are used although they don't say it
conclusion.......Christ returns before tribulation , not because these verses say it but because the first premise says so

so you have no explicit verses
the doctrine is based on assumption
begging the question
circular reasoning

it leaves any sound minded person asking why do so many believe this doctrine when it's based on nothing but a suggestion to begin with
It does not say it, but it shows it.
 
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ebedmelech

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Those who claim that Jesus does not appear until after the tribulation err many times, beginning with their own error of saying no pre-trib rapture, and go right on erring because He is seen in the heavens over Jerusalem, fighting for her....and that is not when He comes down to take up residence on earth.
There will be many signs in the heavens before He touches down and sets up His kingdom....and those left behind, who live on, will witness them.
What it really is...is your error thinking the great tribulation is ahead when it already occurred in 66-70 AD.

The tribulation we deal with today is associated with daring to live for Christ.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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didn't God keep Noah from the flood?
Noah went through the flood with his three sons and three daughters so as to repopulate the earth. Those who go through the tribulation and survive to enter the cleansed from all evil for the second time =second consummation of sin on earth- will also repopulate the earth for one thousand years, and they will marry and give in marriage, just like Noah's sons and their descendants did.

You seem to miss that fact.

didn't He keep Lot from the destruction?

Lot was not blessed in being saved from the nuking of the cities, rather he was saved by Abraham's intercession, but he lost two daughters and his wife in the nuking; and his surviving daughters were not holy and did not repopulate in godliness, but in fornication....hardly a comparison of those who go through the tribulation and live for the thousand years to re-populate the earth as the "Blessed of the LORD".
You seem to miss those facts.


didn't He keep Job, even through all his trials?
I thought you believed that those who go through the tribulation will be kept from it....Hardly a comparison with Job's life.
 
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