The 7000-Year Theory

Yes, the waters under the firmament were separated on those day, however before we get there, there is already the watery, chaotic mass which needs separating. Most interpreters see Gen 1 as literature (apart from theology and science questions) this way:

Unformed things (tohu)
Day 1: (local) light formed
Day 2: waters formed or organized as far as above and below
Day 3: land formed and therefore the waters below separate into forms

Unfilled things (bohu)
Day 4: (local) space filled
Day 5: waters filled with creatures
Day 6: land filled with creatures and man

So at the end everything is formed and filled. The opposite of tohu wa-bohu.

The best exposition of tohu wa-bohu that I know of is Dr. B. Waltke's CREATION AND CHAOS. He says the material was written this way to answer Persian and then Egyptian myths about creation. To answer their flaws, etc. An 'image' of a god is a territorial or domain marker.

The parallel of the Spirit hovering of the nearly-created waters is re-used in 2 Cor 4, in the sense that the Spirit was there at the launch of the church of the new covenant, which is the new creation as much as can be manifested right now (ch 5). The new creation is meant in the collective sense of all who are in Christ, not each individual life. But again, there were things--materials--people--already there before the creating began.

Since Peter uses two time frames (ekpalai and sunestosa are at different times; the heavens existed, the earth was formed) in 2 Pet 3, I think Heb 11's 'out of things not seen' is the earlier beginning not Gen 1's creating. Peter says the earth was formed 'out of water and with water' which, of course, was already there...

Interplanner said:

Yes, the waters under the firmament were separated on those day, however before we get there, there is already the watery, chaotic mass which needs separating. Most interpreters see Gen 1 as literature (apart from theology and science questions) this way:

Unformed things (tohu)
Day 1: (local) light formed
Day 2: waters formed or organized as far as above and below
Day 3: land formed and therefore the waters below separate into forms

Unfilled things (bohu)
Day 4: (local) space filled
Day 5: waters filled with creatures
Day 6: land filled with creatures and man

So at the end everything is formed and filled. The opposite of tohu wa-bohu.

The best exposition of tohu wa-bohu that I know of is Dr. B. Waltke's CREATION AND CHAOS. He says the material was written this way to answer Persian and then Egyptian myths about creation. To answer their flaws, etc. An 'image' of a god is a territorial or domain marker.

The parallel of the Spirit hovering of the nearly-created waters is re-used in 2 Cor 4, in the sense that the Spirit was there at the launch of the church of the new covenant, which is the new creation as much as can be manifested right now (ch 5). The new creation is meant in the collective sense of all who are in Christ, not each individual life. But again, there were things--materials--people--already there before the creating began.

Since Peter uses two time frames (ekpalai and sunestosa are at different times; the heavens existed, the earth was formed) in 2 Pet 3, I think Heb 11's 'out of things not seen' is the earlier beginning not Gen 1's creating. Peter says the earth was formed 'out of water and with water' which, of course, was already there...

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I'm even less than small potatoes and I even know that the heavenly bodies and light were in existence after my Boss Jesus created them, but only until Gen.1:14 or so, will look at the Bible later, did my Boss light up the heavenly bodies hence the sun, moon and etc. became light bearers. I find it amusing that your 'big boys' missed what an idiot got, ie, me the fool and idiot.

what does "I will look at the Bible later" mean?

The way Gen 1 unpacks, there is relative darkness or local darkness at first, 1:2. This reminds me of being in the mountains, as I was last night, and seeing how much light there is from distant stars once we are away from local and man-made light. But of course, once you add a local sun, everything changes. God could have made these local things special, and that is hinted by 2 Pet 3: the 'heavens' (ouranos) existed for a long while (ekpalai--'from of old'), but the earth was 'sunestosa' formed. So from 1:2 we know:
there is already matter although formless and empty
there is already local darkness, but the heavens exist with distant light
there is already water which needs the creative work of God to be formed into something

Otherwise, I doubt if we can resolve what 'light' is there in 1:3-5 because the local light comes in 14+...

Interplanner said:

Yes, the waters under the firmament were separated on those day,...

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Where does the Word of God ever put a firmament above the water of creation? -Nowhere!
It is the water that was divided -literally cut in two- and the firmament was stretched out from the water below in between the below water and the above water.

After it was stretched out, and not before, it was named "sha-mayim -"heavens", in English, and there was no sun or moon made until day 4 of creation week, and the sun is a light bearer -literally a menorah- not a light maker, and receives the light of day 1 as electro-magnetic -atomic waves of energy and refracts them back out to the entire heavens.

Also, the sun itself is that "terrible crystal" which refracts light energy powerfully, governing the light by day and giving it in parts to the moon as the light by night.

And also, God has very scientifically not only told us the sun is a made menorah, but he also tells us that He has set His dwelling place/tabernacle in the sun, itself, in the original language of Psalm 18/19 [some Bible translations make it one, others another, number].

Now we are told that God has planets with liquid oceans of diamonds with floating diamond icebergs in them.....imagine that! God has a created temple "set in the sun", made of cut crystal/diamond [I once thought rock crystal must be meant] which refracts the light of day 1 which it gathers unto itself unto the entire creation...

where are we told about the oceans of diamonds?

would you accept the word form for separate? To create something out of unformed material, you have to ________ it. You choose.

what kind of light exists on day 1?

juleamager said:

Believe in evolution is based on evidence. We have evidence from natural selection and Mendel's work on genetics. An example is a case of a brown beetle and a green beetle. If the environment were a forest, and the predator a bird, the green beetle would survive better because the environment was green. That's natural selection. Eventually, the beetle species in the area would evolve to be only green.

As for large changes, such as in humans to become what is now a modern human, slight changes in DNA over many, many generations will create very large results. Slight changes in an ape over many millions of years eventually gave birth to what we call modern humans.

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mutations do not create. natural selection is due to the reshuffling of genes.. like the creationists say.. the genetic material is already available.
Humans were created in the likeness of God, like the bible says.. the australopithecines were a species of extinct arboreal apes, similar to a modern ape, and that's it.. there was no progression or evolution of humans.. apes and humans, not hominids.
that's the conclusion that I have reached after years of trying to get to the truth about it.

To Juleamager,
Are you familiar with Dr. Ross, recently U of Toronto, on the 'window of human beings' in earth history? I think his main book is still CREATION AND TIME. The idea is that the gap between hominids and humans is too abrupt and too huge to avoid belief in a special creation at that point, which he places at about 20-30K years ago, because of the appearance of artwork, worship, building, etc. Ie, he synchronizes that point in time with Gen 1. Maybe even more interesting are all the other factors (from chemical to celestial) that suited this. That part of it matches THE PRIVILEGED PLANET (by two other scientists, film version on youtube) which shows the earth to be about as opposite of sheer chance as can be found.

Where does the Word of God ever put a firmament above the water of creation? -Nowhere!
It is the water that was divided -literally cut in two- and the firmament was stretched out from the water below in between the below water and the above water.

Sumerian cosmology.

hiscosmicgoldfish said:

mutations do not create. natural selection is due to the reshuffling of genes.. like the creationists say.. the genetic material is already available.
Humans were created in the likeness of God, like the bible says.. the australopithecines were a species of extinct arboreal apes, similar to a modern ape, and that's it.. there was no progression or evolution of humans.. apes and humans, not hominids.
that's the conclusion that I have reached after years of trying to get to the truth about it.

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Au contrarie, mutations create in evolution. The current genetic material changes slightly due to errors. Many over time create new species. Natural selection is not due to the reshuffling of genes, it is due to predation and selection of species in an area.

Humans are certainly in the likeness of God, but they progressed to become the Homo sapiens sapiens they are today. There were species which came before us, namely the ancestor Homo sapiens idaltu.

Interplanner said:

where are we told about the oceans of diamonds?

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In science news -look it up on internet and read it.....lots of information out there that actually correlates with God's "Tessaleted" crystal and pillars of fire temple whcih Enoch went into, and which is set in the sun, as YHWH said His temple is set in, in the Tenach.

Interplanner said:

what kind of light exists on day 1?

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The same light that breaks the darkness @ morning, revolving around the earth in the heavens and precedes the sun in its rising, and which is energy and power. It is the sun which takes it in and refracts it out from it's crystal and fire walls in stupendous energy, to the creation.

juleamager said:

Au contrarie, mutations create in evolution. The current genetic material changes slightly due to errors. Many over time create new species. Natural selection is not due to the reshuffling of genes, it is due to predation and selection of species in an area.

Humans are certainly in the likeness of God, but they progressed to become the Homo sapiens sapiens they are today. There were species which came before us, namely the ancestor Homo sapiens idaltu.

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That is totally not the doctrine of the Word of God and not an eschatology subject for debate.
God set boundaries for each created kind which he made "male and female", and commanded them to multiply their own seed after their own kind.

Genetic mutations do not produce a new "kind", but only can delete information -missing info- or the information can be multiplied itself within the kind, making extra parts and even extra parts with missing sections, but those are errors caused by corruption and do not make a new kind.

The angels who fell took the DNA of kinds and spliced genes to make monsters, which are called chimera, even taking Adam daughters as wives and gene splicing with their own spirit inserted in place of the Adam spirit so as to get offspring unlawfully and so, giants were born before the flood and all flesh kinds on earth were corrupted to some degree. More angels fell after the flood, and more chimera were created and more giants were born.
Remnants [the spirit of them is the remnant, passed from the males of the monster mixes] of the giants are yet among the human being race [called tares and they are not redeemable nor do they desire redemption;they are the wicked who go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies], and not now able to tell one from the other of human flesh] and the demons which are the disembodied spirits of the giants plague Adamkind as a curse upon the flesh of Adam until Jesus sets one free of it by His name, through His power -and that is what His name brought to His own redeemed adopted sons in this age: His shed blood brought the covering of our sin in Adam and His stripes purchased our healing and His name is the power which sets us free, when we are in it, from the demons and the evil satans which plague mind, soul, and spirit of fallen Adam.

So in Christ, who is come in flesh as our Kinsman/Redeemer, we can be delivered in His name, cleansed by His blood and healed by His stripes. All these are gifts He brought to the sons of Adam; and they are ongoing gifts for this Gospel age; for whosoever will may call on His name and be saved by His blood, delivered from the evil spirits, and healed by His stripes....as one walks with Him they can receive whatsoever they need from Him by His grace in this Church age.

not sure I agree that the tares are genetically so, and can't be saved; might be though.
I don't usually do debate on creation/evo, as it is a pointless exercise.
it's a bit like children saying.. yes it is! no it is not! is! no it's not! yes it is! not! is! not!

The Euphrates was dry on 9/11 when the first shot of the Battle of Ar Mageddon was fired, also known as the Battle of That Great Day of God Almighty (which began in the first year of the 7th millennium).

yeshuasavedme said:

God's Word is true from the beginning, and your own words are absolute anti-Bible, which means that being against His Word, you have no validity to teach anyone anything on any basis whatsoever -and your claims are false about the geo-centric universe, as the Bible believing scientists show with many proofs in the book "Galileo Was Wrong, The Church [really, the Bible] Was Right" -and the Word of God is consistent and is fact from the beginning.
Galileo Was Wrong

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"I'm right, you're wrong! I'm right, you're wrong! I'm right, you're wrong!"

yeshuasavedme said:

Genetic mutations do not produce a new "kind", but only can delete information -missing info- or the information can be multiplied itself within the kind, making extra parts and even extra parts with missing sections, but those are errors caused by corruption and do not make a new kind.

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I won't deal with the unscientific or unscriptural second part and the first thing you were discussing, because it's just too ridiculous for me to address.

Genetic mutations create different changes in a species. Multiple changes in a species can create a whole new species, it's basic evolutionary biology. It's science, not that geocentric-flat earther pseudoscience.

But, as you said, this isn't the subject of this thread, so don't mind me.

no it's not.

hiscosmicgoldfish said:

not sure I agree that the tares are genetically so, and can't be saved; might be though.
I don't usually do debate on creation/evo, as it is a pointless exercise.
it's a bit like children saying.. yes it is! no it is not! is! no it's not! yes it is! not! is! not!

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They have already been judged by God -as Enoch reported- and they will never have a day to hear the charges against them in God's court before the throne, but go straight to the Lake of Fire when the angels gather them up at that time when Jesus returns to earth to set up His kingdom for the Sabbath Rest of earth's peace.

"After its kind according to the created seed within it" is Gods boundary which kinds cannot cross and do not cross.
Only the gene splicing taught by the fallen angels can mix kinds and make monsters, which provokes God and caused the flood, which was the first consummation of sin on earth. Next time is by fire.

yeshuasavedme said:

"After its kind according to the created seed within it" is Gods boundary which kinds cannot cross and do not cross.
Only the gene splicing taught by the fallen angels can mix kinds and make monsters, which provokes God and caused the flood, which was the first consummation of sin on earth. Next time is by fire.

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...what? I don't see any boundary in that text, whether figuratively or literally read. It's well known that species mix and have been crossed, it's how we got every species that exists. For example, we crossbreed cats and dogs.

The reason for the question about what kind of light was on day 1 was to find out what kind was on day 4. And so?