Never realized preterist ran so rampant on this forum. It says a lot that I've never met one in real life yet they love to post on this messageboard.
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Millennial Reign: Will all reign with Christ?
- Thread starter FearlessHeart
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hiscosmicgoldfish
Liberal Anglican
I would say that millennialism is restricted to the new-fangled churches.. it's not part of historic Christianity.. Catholic or Protestant.. or anything else.
Rev was about "things that must take place soon" which is why good scholarship says it must at least attempt to see it as being about its times--the awful 7th decade of the 1st century throughout most of the east of the Roman empire, inc. Judea.
sums it up for me.
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bibletruth469
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FearlessHeart said:
I believe that the church( dead in Christ and ones alive at the rapture ), the Old Testament saints and the tribulation martyrs( who refused to worship the beast) will be the 3 groups of people who will help Christ rule during the millennium kingdom . In Rev 20:4 " And I saw thrones and they sat upon them , and judgement was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God , and which had not worshipped the beast neither his image , neither had received his mark upon their foreheads , or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years".the ' thrones ' represent these different groups.
Rev 20:6 , the first resurrection has 3 phases 1- resurrection of Christ( first fruits) I cor 15:23, rev 1:5, 2 - resurrection if the church, 1 cor 15:23, 1 thes 4:16, 3- resurrection of tribulation saints and the Old Testament saints. vs 4, Is 26:19, Dan 12:2. This first resurrection is to life John 5:28-29
The rest of the dead(unbelievers ) will be raised in the second resurrection described in verses 12-13. This is the second is to death( eternal punishment ) rev 20:14
Yes, IMO the church will rule and reign with Christ for a literal 1000 years. I personally believe that ALL believers are part of the church. I do not believe that there are separate groups of people within the body of Christ that are considered overcomers . The only way the church has overcome anything is through Christ. You are born again once you become a believer and then become part of the church then you become an overcomer.
I also believe that the nation of Israel will be restored. Rom 11:26-32. This is the ultimate fulfillment of the new covenant. Jer. 31:31-34. . This will be realized when Christ sets up His kingdom.
During the 1000 years , at first only believers will be there and satan is bound. The tribulation survivors will have natural bodies and will be populating the kingdom. People born at that time will have a choice on whether are not they will follow Christ. Some will follow Him, however after satan is released for a short time, many people will not follow God and will follow satan instead. Rev 20:7-9.
I interpret the bible literally and do not believe in the preterist viewpoint .
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HannibalFlavius
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There are 144,000 priests in all, and this is why the number is used.
The only people who obtain the first resurrection is the first fruits of resurrection and these are shown in Revelation 14 as the firstfruits.
Jesus was the first fruit of firstfruits and he will come and gather all people in history who have obtain the reward of Resurrection during a Messianic age.
The ones who achieve the reward of firstfruits will reign.
The 144,000 are called firstfruits showing their resurrection.
These were taken from mankind and redeemed{all mankind, all history}
If you are not counted amongst them, you will not be called, firstfruits.
Being firstfruits MEANS resurrection.
A virgin has given birth to a male child.
That's what these 144,000 virgins achieve, they give birth to themselves and then they are male priests.
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The 144,000 represents all believers. You're inferring them to be male priest when the text doesn't say that at all.
You have to understand being "defiled with women" as going after false gods! We have that referent in the OT. It is said many times by God, that Israel "played the harlot" by going after false gods. That's what it means when it says they "have not defiled themselves with women". Just as the "harlot who sits on many waters" represent false worship in Revelation. Those who go after her commit "spiritual adultery".
After John hears the 12,000 of the 12 tribes named off. John then turns to see what the 144,000 were in the very next verse:
Revelation 7:9-12:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying, “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
This is John seeing what the full complement of all of God's redeemed looks like. It is the "Israel of God"...they are redeemed by the blood of Christ.
Christ represents Israel in the temptation He went through after His baptism.
*He fasted 40 days and nights...one for each year the children of Israel went through the wilderness.
*He endured the temptation of Satan which Israel failed to do in the wilderness.
After that Jesus steps on the scene saying "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The 144,000 is all the redeemed of God!!!
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bibletruth469
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ebedmelech said:The 144,000 represents all believers. You're inferring them to be male priest when the text doesn't say that at all.
You have to understand being "defiled with women" as going after false gods! We have that referent in the OT. It is said many times by God, that Israel "played the harlot" by going after false gods. That's what it means when it says they "have not defiled themselves with women". Just as the "harlot who sits on many waters" represent false worship in Revelation. Those who go after her commit "spiritual adultery".
After John hears the 12,000 of the 12 tribes named off. John then turns to see what the 144,000 were in the very next verse:
Revelation 7:9-12:
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;
10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."
11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen."
This is John seeing what the full complement of all of God's redeemed looks like. It is the "Israel of God"...they are redeemed by the blood of Christ.
Christ represents Israel in the temptation He went through after His baptism.
*He fasted 40 days and nights...one for each year the children of Israel went through the wilderness.
*He endured the temptation of Satan which Israel failed to do in the wilderness.
After that Jesus steps on the scene saying "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
The 144,000 is all the redeemed of God!!!
The 144,000 are redeemed Jews from the 12 tribes. They are not the church or any other group of people . They are the 1st firsts saved out of the tribulation .
Notice in the scripture, it says' after these things' this means of course , something that happens after. The great multitude is a different group than the 144,000. Some believe they are the martyrs who come out of the great tribulation while others believe they are the raptured church in heaven. Either way, they can't be only the 144,000 because the great multitude in rev 7 come from all people groups on the earth while the 144,000 are only Jewish people.
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The Church that conquers to the end will get to reign with Jesus and the beheaded martyrs in His millennial reign. The US Church will be one of 24 that rule the earth with Jesus for a thousand years.
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bibletruth469
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interpreter said:
Jesus said in John 14:1-4, " let your heart not be troubled; ye believe in God , believe also in me. In my Fathers house are many mansions ; if it were not so, I would have told you . I go and prepare a place for you; I will come again; and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also . And whither I go ye know and the way ye know".
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In the Battle of Ar Mageddon, now unfolding, the Satanic beast of the Revelation will be so soundly defeated that it won't be heard from for a thousand years, allowing Jesus and the 24 thrones to rule in peace for a thousand years.
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Yeah...well the church has been reigning with Christ every since His resurrection!!!
You don't realize the "thousand years" are symbolic of Christ reigning from the time God gave Him all authority after His resurrection, until the time He completes judgement on His return, and returns all power to God. That would be 1 Corinthians 15:24-28
24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
This is where we are now...and have been since Jesus was raised!!!
We know Christ reigns now from these passages:
Matthew 28:18:
18 And Jesus came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.
Jesus has all authority n heaven and on earth! How is it He's not reigning now?
Acts 2:36:
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made Him both Lord and Christ—this Jesus whom you crucified.”
God MADE Jesus Lord and Christ! How is it He's not reigning now?
Ephesians 1:18-22:
18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might
20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places,
21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come.
22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church,
23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
Pretty clear that Jesus reigns NOW!!! Why is it believers are looking for a reign?
Ephesians 2:4-6 tells you we in the church are SEATED WITH CHRIST in the heavenly places:
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when wewere dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
Right now we reign with Jesus, as we are SEATED WITH HIM! Why are you looking for a reign that is now?
Paul tell us in 1 Corinthians 15:25 that Jesus reigns:
25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
Too many saints are missing the fact that Jesus reigns NOW!!!
BELIEVE IT!!!
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Interplanner
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Actually I think the post-mill view is that after the 'little while of rebellion' at the end of the mill, the universe is utterly renewed.
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Zadok7000
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Yes, our Lord will reign physically on earth (Jerusalem) for 1,000 literal years - the "Day of the Lord". There are those within the Temple who minister to Him personally (those "In Christ" from all time), then the rest of the people from all time who live outside it. It will be a time of teaching of the holy vs the profane. Caveat is there will be millions of Christians who will take the mark of the beast and will be outside and will need to repent to avoid the lake of fire at the end of the millennium.
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bibletruth469
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To Eded, we will not be able to agree because I believe there will be a literal millennial period when you are amillenial which means that we are living in the mellinimum now. Look at Eph 1:19-23, " And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe , according to the working if his mighty power,Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality , and power and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body , the fullness of him that fileth all in him".
From this scripture , we know that Christ is seated in the heavenly places , yes, he is up in heaven at the right hand of the Father now. Also, when it says ' in this world and the one to come' shows us that he will also reign in the future.
As you mentioned above 1 cor 15:24-28, we must look at the entire passage 1cor 15:20-34. It speaks about the assurance of the believer. When believers are finally resurrected from the dead, the destruction of death will be complete . Until that time , he completes the judgement at his return and then the 1000 year millennium will be set up by him.
Right now, we live by faith not by sight. We will literally see Christ face to face. Yes, Christ is in heaven now reigning , however we are not reigning with him yet and will not be until the 1000 years. Therefore , our hope is in Christ. He has given us new life now and will give us new physical bodies at his return.
From this scripture , we know that Christ is seated in the heavenly places , yes, he is up in heaven at the right hand of the Father now. Also, when it says ' in this world and the one to come' shows us that he will also reign in the future.
As you mentioned above 1 cor 15:24-28, we must look at the entire passage 1cor 15:20-34. It speaks about the assurance of the believer. When believers are finally resurrected from the dead, the destruction of death will be complete . Until that time , he completes the judgement at his return and then the 1000 year millennium will be set up by him.
Right now, we live by faith not by sight. We will literally see Christ face to face. Yes, Christ is in heaven now reigning , however we are not reigning with him yet and will not be until the 1000 years. Therefore , our hope is in Christ. He has given us new life now and will give us new physical bodies at his return.
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bibletruth469
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Zadok7000 said:
No , if you take the mark, you will be cast into the lake of fire. You are not a Christian if you take the mark !!
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Interplanner
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The Eph 1 passage you quoted is usually why a postmill thinks the reign is now. The name or position Christ now has is higher than anything now or in the future, but it is now, not in the future only.
By way of clarification, postmill means the kingdom of God is now, ending with 'a little period of wickeness' and then the Return and the new heavens and earth are made. The Return is after (post-) this mill. Amill doesn't think it exists at all.
By way of clarification, postmill means the kingdom of God is now, ending with 'a little period of wickeness' and then the Return and the new heavens and earth are made. The Return is after (post-) this mill. Amill doesn't think it exists at all.
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Here's the problem with your thinking. It's bogus to not believe Jesus physically reigns when He clearly said in Matthew 28:18 that He has all power "in heaven AND on earth".
That's a CLEAR statement that Jesus reigns! Is it not?
Ephesians says He is right now "seated at God's right hand FAR ABOVE all rulers, and authorities, and power, and dominion, and EVERY name that is named. Not only in THIS age, but also Iin the one to come."
Can it be said any stronger than that? Jesus reigns!!!
Colossians tells us ALL THINGS are held together by Jesus...how can He not be reigning???
When one reads through the OT we see God has all power...and yet God doesn't exercise His power until He decides to. Would you say at any time that God didn't reign over earth?
That would be the failure of not acknowledging Jesus reigns now. Again clear passages teach that Jesus reigns...and reigns just as God did in the OT.
People want to think Jesus doesn't reign now...yet what they fail to realize is if He doesn't reign now...HOW CAN HE JUDGE THE WORLD???
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