The 7000-Year Theory

You pretty much said what I was trying to convey using better language. Thanks.

juleamager said:

You pretty much said what I was trying to convey using better language. Thanks.

Click to expand...

No problem, thank you.

It has always been my pleasure to express my love for finding out more about the life and the universe. I used to be quite a militant Young Earth Creationist. I would have (embarrassing) debates with my science teachers, ''boycott'' science programs, deem all scientific evidence as false...

I then began to have serious doubts about my faith...the amount of contradictions I found in the scriptures were too much. I found that I was missing out by basing everything on a book. I then just accepted truth...and my love for God grew far stronger. He loves and cares for us so much, He gave us the universe in all its beauty and majesty for us to discover. Instead of giving everything to us straightaway, He has allowed us to find out things for ourselves. All scientific evidence is a gift of knowledge of God's creation. Whether its a new species, planet, galaxy...it was created by God.

As one of my atheist friends recently said to me, ''You are one of the only Christians I can reason with. God must really love you if He made you so special from all the other species.''

I wasn't ever trying to say the Bible was wrong, sorry. I was trying to say that they were interpreting it wrong.

juleamager said:

I wasn't ever trying to say the Bible was wrong, sorry. I was trying to say that they were interpreting it wrong.

Click to expand...

Careful! Apparently if you don't take the Bible word-for-word (like the Muslims do with their Quran), you're compromising the entire Christian faith!

The Bible is infallible but not necessarily literal. I believe that only Jesus Christ is the way to Heaven, not the Bible. The Sacred Tradition of Christ is actually even older than the Bible, it existed before the Bible was put together. I believe that a lot of denominations are simply too focused on the Bible, seeing it as divine and ''alive.''

Indeed, God's word is alive...it simply does not end with the Bible! It includes our very lives and existence, we are all part of God's plan. The Holy Spirit continues to guide us...I believe that reading testimonies of good Christians (such as saints) is as good as reading Bible verses, for it shows that the Holy Spirit is at work.

Remember Christianity is not found in a book, it is everywhere!

juleamager said:

I was attempting to make a point, that Biblical literalism is dangerous and silly.



It's not errant if there is a very, very, very, very large amount of scientific evidence that disregards that assumption.

Click to expand...

I don't think so...not when I read God doing such things as:

*Making the sun stand still.

*Making walls basically fall down.

*Turning water into blood.

That's call THE POWER TO DO AS YOU DESIRE...especially when you created it all.

God has the command over science!!!

ebedmelech said:

I don't think so...not when I read God doing such things as:

*Making the sun stand still.

*Making walls basically fall down.

*Turning water into blood.

That's call THE POWER TO DO AS YOU DESIRE...especially when you created it all.

God has the command over science!!!

Click to expand...

For the benefit of the doubt, I will assume that you take the Bible word-for-word literally, am I correct?

In any case we can believe whatever we want about these trivial matters, Jesus Christ is the way, the light and the life. Only through Him are we saved, not by our works or convictions, but through Him.

120 Jubilee years is 50 times 120=6000

1000 years of Messianic age.

7000

ebedmelech said:

That's call THE POWER TO DO AS YOU DESIRE...especially when you created it all.

God has the command over science!!!

Click to expand...

There are several things God cannot do. Those things are require humans to do what He says by manipulating them, and breaking His own rules. Since God is the author of the rules that govern mathematics, genetics, physics, matter, gravity, and many other things, He cannot violate the same thing. It's the same case with God not being able to lie.

Therefore, since God created the rules of the scientific discipline, He does not have the power to change basic rules of matter or basic rules concerning gravity, for example. God is powerless before free will and His own rules. This is not some divine sandbox. There are rules that govern the natural world and our Universe that even the Creator cannot violate.

ViaCrucis said:

Our understanding of physics has changed numerous times. At one point the general view was that the earth was the center of the universe and the sun orbited the earth. With Copernicus, Galileo, and Kepler our understanding changed, with Newton our understanding further changed as Newton's laws of physics came to dominate our understanding of the physical universe. Then, last century, comes this fellow named Albert Einstein, whose views of space-time and theories on Relativity radically changed our understanding of physics. And even then, Einsteinian physics have been improved upon as our understanding of the Quantum world has been improved upon, and we're still learning.

That's how science works. That we don't have everything figured out immediately is to be expected, it's not an example of the abysmal failure of the scientific method.

-CryptoLutheran

Click to expand...

Completely agree! There is no ''written in stone'' scientific theory, there never will be!

What we have to understand is that these people didn't disagree and contradict each other, they learned and expanded from each other. Newton said that he ''stood on shoulders of giants'', meaning his predecessors including Galileo (a devout Catholic, the Church has apologized for torturing this great man).

Indeed, we're still learning about quantum and, although physics isn't doing as well as bbilogy (might I add that the father of modern genetics is Gregor Mendel, an Austrian monk), we will eventually make progress to uncover the mysteries of the universe.

Science is never a definite thing, it will only ever be the systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.

juleamager said:

There are several things God cannot do. Those things are require humans to do what He says by manipulating them, and breaking His own rules. Since God is the author of the rules that govern mathematics, genetics, physics, matter, gravity, and many other things, He cannot violate the same thing. It's the same case with God not being able to lie.

Therefore, since God created the rules of the scientific discipline, He does not have the power to change basic rules of matter or basic rules concerning gravity, for example. God is powerless before free will and His own rules. This is not some divine sandbox. There are rules that govern the natural world and our Universe that even the Creator cannot violate.

Click to expand...

I am an Old Earth Creationist who ardently supports theistic evolution but...

God is never ever powerless, He did not create His own rules and then become bound to them. If that were the case, we should all be condemned for Original Sin would always last. No, God did the ''impossible'' by sending Jesus Christ to die for our sins. This contradicted His original convenant and designs found in the Old Testamant.

I believe that God, the all merciful Father almighty, can do anything. He is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end...He is science itself and science lives within Him. He has done things that would be rejected by many scientists, such as descending onto Earth in both fully human and fully God form [Jesus Christ]. He performed miracles. He died and rose from the dead, later ascending into Heaven. The Holy Spirit fell upon His apostles, giving them new languages...

I do not believe in the predetermination of the Calvinists regarding salvation, I believe that God gives us the free will to determine whether we choose to be saved or not. He did the same with Adam and Eve when He gave them the choice of eating from the Tree of Life. They chose death and thus were made mortals.

We either choose life or death in this world...one choice, two outcomes. Whether you believe the Earth is 7000 or 4.54 billion years old, whether humans were created in their current form or if they descended from ape like ancestors...has nothing to do with salvation.

''Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.'' John 3:36

I just hope that Christians will accept this fundamental fact and move on from all these evolutionary debates.

Kurama said:

For the benefit of the doubt, I will assume that you take the Bible word-for-word literally, am I correct?

In any case we can believe whatever we want about these trivial matters, Jesus Christ is the way, the light and the life. Only through Him are we saved, not by our works or convictions, but through Him.

Click to expand...

Well...let's take one instance where the sun stood still...Joshua 10:12-15:
12 Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, “O sun, stand still at Gibeon, And O moon in the valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.
14 There was no day like that before it or after it, when the Lord listened to the voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.
15 Then Joshua and all Israel with him returned to the camp to Gilgal.


Show me within that text any reason to take that other than literally.

My point would be, unless the text gives me reason to take it other than literally...I take it literally!!!

There are plenty of indications when a text shouldn't be literal...that is not one.

Now...move to the Psalms where we read of the mountains skipping and singing...obviously there's reason not to accept that literally.

Houly said:

All true.

That's why I don't think Adam was at the beginning of the universe. He was the beginning of sin in mankind and spiritual life and death: the union and disunion of the soul with God. We know that was around 3968 BC, and that would be the beginning of the 7,000 years.

Click to expand...

There's still as scientific issue there.

ebedmelech said:

Well...let's take one instance where the sun stood still...Joshua 10:12-15:
12 Then Joshua spoke to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the sons of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, “O sun, stand still at Gibeon, And O moon in the valley of Aijalon.”
13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, Until the nation avenged themselves of their enemies. Is it not written in the book of Jashar? And the sun stopped in the middle of the sky and did not hasten to go down for about a whole day.
14 There was no day like that before it or after it, when the Lord listened to the voice of a man; for the Lord fought for Israel.
15 Then Joshua and all Israel with him returned to the camp to Gilgal.


Show me within that text any reason to take that other than literally.

My point would be, unless the text gives me reason to take it other than literally...I take it literally!!!

There are plenty of indications when a text shouldn't be literal...that is not one.

Now...move to the Psalms where we read of the mountains skipping and singing...obviously there's reason not to accept that literally.

Click to expand...

It is good that you stick true to what the passage says, I am not deploring the possibility that the sun stood still for a whole day. It is clear that the passage focuses on telling the reader to fully believe this event, and I fully understand your view (I used to be a militant Young Earth Creationist, just to let you know). However of course there are parts, often violent, of the OT that are best left unfollowed (Christ taught us to love our neighbour, He contradicted the barbarity of the others, and denounced the Pharisees who continued upholding the principles of the Law of Moses found in the OT).

My point is that it doesn't make any difference to me, it does not concern me whatsoever. If God created the world in 7 days, made us in our current form...these are trivial matters. We either choose life or death in this world...one choice, two outcomes. We are not given salvation for reading the whole Bible and taking it literally, we are saved for our faith in Jesus.

Think about the death bed converts to Christianity. They sometimes know nothing about Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, Young Earth Creationism....they just, in their last moments of life, acknowledge that Jesus is their Lord and Saviour and that only through Him will they have eternal life. We should be more like them...

All the other elements of the Bible, such as the creation of the world and many of the supernatural events, can be viewed as ''extra'' (not necessary for salvation)... Jesus Christ is the central point of our faith, our lives and destinies.

Kurama said:

It is good that you stick true to what the passage says, I am not deploring the possibility that the sun stood still for a whole day. It is clear that the passage focuses on telling the reader to fully believe this event, and I fully understand your view (I used to be a militant Young Earth Creationist, just to let you know). However of course there are parts, often violent, of the OT that are best left unfollowed (Christ taught us to love our neighbour, He contradicted the barbarity of the others, and denounced the Pharisees who continued upholding the principles of the Law of Moses found in the OT).

My point is that it doesn't make any difference to me, it does not concern me whatsoever. If God created the world in 7 days, made us in our current form...these are trivial matters. We either choose life or death in this world...one choice, two outcomes. We are not given salvation for reading the whole Bible and taking it literally, we are saved for our faith in Jesus.

Click to expand...

I don't make much of an issue of it myself...nor am I a "militant YEC". By the same token there are errant doctrines based on creation. I agree of primary concern is salvation...and in some cases belief in evolution is keeping people from trusting in Christ.

Kurama said:

Think about the death bed converts to Christianity. They sometimes know nothing about Christianity, Jesus, the Bible, Young Earth Creationism....they just, in their last moments of life, acknowledge that Jesus is their Lord and Saviour and that only through Him will they have eternal life. We should be more like them...

Click to expand...

So we're to be ready to give an answer!

Kurama said:

All the other elements of the Bible, such as the creation of the world and many of the supernatural events, can be viewed as ''extra'' (not necessary for salvation)... Jesus Christ is the central point of our faith, our lives and destinies.

Click to expand...

I understand your point...but by the same token I don't see God giving us the information for nothing. Who knows the reason some won't receive Christ?

I think we should try our best to gain insight from all the scriptures tell us because there are many reasons people don't receive Christ.

I am an Old Earth Creationist who ardently supports theistic evolution but...

why?

evolution is not true.
belief in evolution is a faith, and is not based on a consideration of the evidence.

hiscosmicgoldfish said:

I am an Old Earth Creationist who ardently supports theistic evolution but...

why?

evolution is not true.
belief in evolution is a faith, and is not based on a consideration of the evidence.

Click to expand...

Believe in evolution is based on evidence. We have evidence from natural selection and Mendel's work on genetics. An example is a case of a brown beetle and a green beetle. If the environment were a forest, and the predator a bird, the green beetle would survive better because the environment was green. That's natural selection. Eventually, the beetle species in the area would evolve to be only green.

As for large changes, such as in humans to become what is now a modern human, slight changes in DNA over many, many generations will create very large results. Slight changes in an ape over many millions of years eventually gave birth to what we call modern humans.

hiscosmicgoldfish said:

evolution is not true.

Click to expand...

How do you know that?

Yeshua, what is a fact?