No Secret Rapture? -Nope!

yeshuasavedme · Jul 9, 2013

Graves will be opened and the dead will rise
Urns will be emptied of ashes and the dead will rise
Clothes will be left behind and the living will rise

It will not be secret, but open and witnessed by those "left behind"

And we all need to be ready if we want to go be with Jesus, where He is.

orangeness365 · Jul 9, 2013

yeah it could happen at any moment.

Biblewriter · Jul 9, 2013

By "secret" they do not mean that the results will not be seen. They only mean that at the time of the rapture, only those who are raptured will see the Lord. everyone else will only see the results. They will see people disappear before their very eyes, but will not see what made them disappear.

That is what is meant by the doctrine of a secret rapture.

I have told many it will be a "beam me up, Scotty" type of a deal.

hiscosmicgoldfish · Jul 9, 2013

perhaps it's related to the lightening that Jesus spoke of, although he was using that as an example.. but maybe not just as example.

ebedmelech · Jul 9, 2013

yeshuasavedme said:
Graves will be opened and the dead will rise
Urns will be emptied of ashes and the dead will rise
Clothes will be left behind and the living will rise

It will not be secret, but open and witnessed by those "left behind"

And we all need to be ready if we want to go be with Jesus, where He is.

Not at all. Jesus tells us about this in John 5:25-28:
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

It's all one event! No one will be left behind...it's the judgment of Christ at the end!!!

shturt678 · Jul 9, 2013

ebedmelech said:
Not at all. Jesus tells us about this in John 5:25-28:
25 Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
26 For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself;
27 and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.
28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
29 and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

It's all one event! No one will be left behind...it's the judgment of Christ at the end!!!

Just one small addition, the ones that did the good already are sitting on the right way way before the "caught up." No soul snoozing whether in hell or in heaven.

Manasseh_ · Jul 9, 2013

Biblewriter said:
By "secret" they do not mean that the results will not be seen. They only mean that at the time of the rapture, only those who are raptured will see the Lord. everyone else will only see the results. They will see people disappear before their very eyes, but will not see what made them disappear.

That is what is meant by the doctrine of a secret rapture.

I have told many it will be a "beam me up, Scotty" type of a deal.

but then again the scriputural description says no part of it will be secret

Christ first said it happens after tribulation is over
then he said he will be seen and he used an example of a lightning bolt so large it flashes all the way from east to west
then he said all the tribes of the earth would "mourn" be sad and crying because they see him coming in his glory

the same thing is repeated in Revelation when the all those wicked see him coming and attempt to hide themselves from him and his wrath (Rev 6)

and Zechariah foretells that he will immediately go to Jerusalem and fight against the nations that came against it, then establish his kingdom

line upon line, precept upon precept ,here a little , there a little

ViaCrucis · Jul 9, 2013

There are no "left behind" at the Lord's Parousia. When He comes, and the dead are raised, He comes to judge the quick and the dead. When the Author steps upon the stage, the play is over.

-CryptoLutheran

Biblewriter · Jul 9, 2013

Manasseh_ said:
but then again the scriputural description says no part of it will be secret

Christ first said it happens after tribulation is over

That is a rank assumption on your part. You are assuming, without an atom of scriptural proof that the coming He is only coming back a single time. No scripture even hints at such an idea, but many clearly show that He will indeed return more than just one time.

Mutually exclusive prophecies about the Lords future coming
http://www.christianforums.com/t7636041-18/

shturt678 · Jul 9, 2013

Biblewriter said:
That is a rank assumption on your part. You are assuming, without an atom of scriptural proof that the coming He is only coming back a single time. No scripture even hints at such an idea, but many clearly show that He will indeed return more than just one time.

Mutually exclusive prophecies about the Lords future coming
http://www.christianforums.com/t7636041-18/
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I just recently heard of coming back three more times, ie, isn't this getting a little too ridiculous? Jn.5:28, 29, ie, the good, bad, and the ugly, ie, a one time, One Returning type of thing. :wave:

hiscosmicgoldfish · Jul 10, 2013

I think the return of Christ isn't a return, so much as the end of this world, ('and then the end will come') the sending forth of angels, and total destruction. That's why the prophets advised no one to look forward to it, which is why there is a contradiction in Paul's writings on the matter, so Paul seems to have believed in some sort of return of Christ, which was to be a comfort, and not a dread; so there are two separate events.. the rapture, followed some years later by the day of the Lord.

And the great tribulation which Jesus mentioned occurs after the rapture, otherwise the days would not be as in the days of Noah.. normality, a continuation of the usual things; marriage etc.. and not panic/destruction/calamity of the great trib.. another reason to think there is a pre-trib rapture.
I think the world is transformed into a pre-fall type of paradise, and everyone will be sorted out; eternity will commence.
It's also the only sensible way of interpreting the illustration of one taken, one left behind. To think that the righteous are left behind, only fits if you believe that the earth remains, in a millennium or whatever.. an earthly kingdom, which I don't accept.

Jesus saying that his kingdom is not of this world, must mean just that, for all time, or else he didn't know what he was saying, or was mistaken about it, which I don't think is likely.

zeke37 · Jul 10, 2013

yeshuasavedme said:
Graves will be opened and the dead will rise

figuratively, correct.

literally, the dead rising, is a reference to
the dead coming back to earth from heaven and being raised here

Urns will be emptied of ashes and the dead will rise

figuratively, correct.

Clothes will be left behind and the living will rise

the living would have to be dead to "rise", in the context given.
because it is the dead in Christ that come from heaven with Jesus
and it is those that are "raised" in 1Thes4

but as for the folks alive at His Coming,
at the "change" that happens to all flesh,
i'd bet they lose their clothes

of course both happen at the last day,
as the "raising" of 1Thes4 is certainty at the end, not pre trib.

It will not be secret, but open and witnessed by those "left behind"

no such pre trib event takes place.
every eye shall see His Coming

And we all need to be ready if we want to go be with Jesus, where He is.

yep. you could die at any time,
thus be ready today, so u can go to your mansion
and wait to be raised back here at the last day

but its not a pre trib thing

orangeness365 said:
yeah it could happen at any moment.

nope. there are signs that must occur first,
that we are given by Christ, OT Prophets, and Godly men in the NT
who were guided by the Holy Spirit

because His Coming is at the last day
and that is when He raises the dead, here,
and changes ALL those who happen to be alive at that last day
to be like them, and gathers them together with Him
here

rapture is at the end, not the precursor

in 1Thes4, if u pretribbers think
that we go UP at His Coming, (he's Coming down here)
or that the dead go UP, (they are coming with Him, FROM heaven)
or that we all go TO heaven (heaven is the departure point, not our destination)
or that cloud means RAINcloud (see Heb12:1 for PAUL's explanation as a mass multitude)
or that air means atmosphere (air is a simple synonym for spirit, see 1Cor15's mystery change)
then u qualify as those confused by Paul writing,
spoken of in 2Pet3

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

Biblewriter said:
By "secret" they do not mean that the results will not be seen. They only mean that at the time of the rapture, only those who are raptured will see the Lord. everyone else will only see the results. They will see people disappear before their very eyes, but will not see what made them disappear.

That is what is meant by the doctrine of a secret rapture.

every eye shall see....even they who pierced him

I have told many it will be a "beam me up, Scotty" type of a deal.

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
perhaps it's related to the lightening that Jesus spoke of, although he was using that as an example.. but maybe not just as example.

betcha it is, but at the last day, not pre trib

zeke37 · Jul 10, 2013

hiscosmicgoldfish said:
I think the return of Christ isn't a return, so much as the end of this world, ('and then the end will come') the sending forth of angels, and total destruction. That's why the prophets advised no one to look forward to it, which is why there is a contradiction in Paul's writings on the matter, so Paul seems to have believed in some sort of return of Christ, which was to be a comfort, and not a dread; so there are two separate events.. the rapture, followed some years later by the day of the Lord.

Paul did not contradict the OT prophets or Christ or Peter.
u are stuck on that issue, but u are wrong.
Peter taught grade school, he was a good grade school teacher
but Paul taught all ages...
even Ivey league theology, extreme higher education

they spoke of the same things in different ways, God gifted Paul to do so

anywho, in the OT, yes the prophets call the day of the Lord a terrible day etc,
for the wicked, for the enemies of God, it'll be terrible
but there is always provision of the same day for the good,
somewhere in the very same prophesy

I posted this to James (biblewriter2) a while ago, but he never responded.
I know he's a busy guy
but sometime we have to keep reading.... read an entire chapter to find the good,
or perhaps continue into the next chapter....

but it's always there.

Paul believed in ONE future Coming of Christ,
at the last day, when the dead are raised....post trib.
and he believed that the rapture was right after that

he never teaches what pre trib claims he teaches
so they (and you ) qualify for the warning Peter gives in 2Pet3:15-17

And the great tribulation which Jesus mentioned occurs after the rapture, otherwise the days would not be as in the days of Noah.. normality, a continuation of the usual things; marriage etc.. and not panic/destruction/calamity of the great trib.. another reason to think there is a pre-trib rapture.

all it means is that things will be thought of as normal...
when the beast's system is eventually accepted, it will be thought of as normal.

but imo the world will see calamity in the first half of the last 7

and then at the midst, the false Christ appears and fools the masses
setting up his kingdom, where folks will willingly join...
all will be good for them who join,
as they come from a bad place into what they think is a better one
under this leaders leadership

so they will marry, party etc, during the final phase for sure
and remember that even if the 2 olive tree witnesses do cause them some distress
the beast participants party when the 2 olive tree witnesses are killed,
so in their opinion, life is good for them even near the end, right?
right up until the very end, the majority of the world is fooled into believing the AC is a saviour (The Saviour)
and they are under him, so they think all is good...

I think the world is transformed into a pre-fall type of paradise, and everyone will be sorted out; eternity will commence.

so do I, but only after the refining period (Millennium)
where wayward Christians are lead back home

It's also the only sensible way of interpreting the illustration of one taken, one left behind. To think that the righteous are left behind, only fits if you believe that the earth remains, in a millennium or whatever.. an earthly kingdom, which I don't accept.

u can debate the meaning all u want I guess
but in the scripture itself (Mat24), the analogy is CLEARLY drawn that
the wicked are taken and the good remain working

there are some working and some not working
the ones not working are taken in the flood
(marrying, partying etc life is normal, they are in deception)

the ones left working are the ones blessed at His Coming
they know the season and that the harvest is about to happen
so they stay in the field working, even in bad conditions

it's really not difficult
some are blessed = those left,
some are hypocrites = those taken

since u don't believe in a millennial kingdom, then what do u make of Ez44?

Jesus saying that his kingdom is not of this world, must mean just that, for all time, or else he didn't know what he was saying, or was mistaken about it, which I don't think is likely.

prob much more likely that u are confused and misunderstand things.
seriously. I see it with you all the time...
u've changed opinions (usually adamantly) more than anyone else here that I know of.

Jesus clearly meant in the context that the vast maj of the world does not follow Him then or even currently.
He was about the spiritual things that far transcend the body and politics
and the fact remains that He is Coming back,
spoken of many times, not just by Paul

all things change when He returns....
we are all changed, good, bad, in between
some get the pass right in....marriage to the Lamb
but some don't get in...ie the 5 other virgins/hypocrites/seduced

so of them, any of us that have a shot, but need refinement, shall get it......
then after the 1000 years, the FINAL EXECUTION of the judgement that began at His Coming
(destruction of all negative things)
and eternity begins

but the New heaven's and New earth means that
this current planet earth is refined into the eternity

zeke37 · Jul 10, 2013

Manasseh_ · Jul 10, 2013

Biblewriter said:
That is a rank assumption on your part. You are assuming, without an atom of scriptural proof that the coming He is only coming back a single time. No scripture even hints at such an idea, but many clearly show that He will indeed return more than just one time.

you can't make assumptions from explicit statements, you can add to them or reject them outright, but Christs' statements to his apostles in his Olivet prophecy are simple explicit statements and since they are prophecy they must come to pass as stated otherwise the prophecy is deemed false, scripture obviously says that God cannot lie

again the statements in order are
the great tribulation is over
heavenly signs begin to occur, sun darkened , moon doesn't give light, etc
The sign of the Son of man coming, Christ explains this earlier with the analogy of the great lightning flash symbolic of the brightness of his glory
the tribes of the earth mourn (everyone sees him coming)
next the command is given for his angels to gather his elect with the great sound of a trumpet blast

the sun being darkened and the moon not giving light are foretold by a number of prophets in the OT where it's called the Day of the Lord.............so again, scripture not only hints of this one single great return but explicitly foretells it from the prophets to Christ........

again these are direct statements made and very descriptive .........the description is without any kind of secrecy, everyone sees and hears him arrive

it's only pretribbers that have to make assumptions on all the verses they use because they don't have even one verse , one explicit statement that says Christ comes before great tribulation

hiscosmicgoldfish · Jul 10, 2013

zeke37 said:
...

Ez 44 does look like a millennium scenario, but it could also apply to an eternal kingdom. People say it's not a literal temple, but I disagree. If there was a millennium, I think that Jesus would have mentioned it, even once? And as I've said before; Jesus said 'then the end will come' when asked about it.. yeah maybe the end of the age, but it seems to me that he is describing the sorting out of the fish in the net, the gathering of the wheat and the destruction of the tares.. not waiting for 1000 years.. it's over with.. that's what people in my church believe, even if on other occasions they cant see the contradictions in the Rev. scenario.. belief in a millennium doesn't seem to be big in Anglicanism. or Catholicism as far as I know.

The reason that I am stuck on the Paul thing, is because I haven't heard a good explanation to counter my ideas.. it's not just me that sees this.. I've read others who see the same thing and reach the same conclusion..

Paul says 'comfort one another with this'.. and so I remain stuck on that, because the day of the Lord, just isn't a thing to comfort anyone.

I agree with Biblewriter these days on this matter. The pre-trib rapture isn't a new idea.

As discussed; the millennium as depicted in Rev. doesn't work out either way, as literal or as the church age. It doesn't work out literal, as there is no good reason to set the devil loose from the abyss at the end of the 1000 years.. it just says 'the devil must be loosed' .. why?
no reason given, just accept it.. even if the devil was confined to the abyss, which I suppose is possible. And when exactly is the devil set loose? For how long?

I think that historically, people have preferred to go amillennial, for good reason, but that doesn't work.. the devil is not confined to the abyss during the church age.. the devil remains in heaven.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB · Jul 10, 2013

again the statements in order are
the great tribulation is over
heavenly signs begin to occur, sun darkened , moon doesn't give light, etc
The sign of the Son of man coming, Christ explains this earlier with the analogy of the great lightning flash symbolic of the brightness of his glory
the tribes of the earth mourn (everyone sees him coming)
next the command is given for his angels to gather his elect with the great sound of a trumpet blast

KNOWLEDGE BOMB replies:

Every use of the Word "Tribulation" in the NT means "sufferings" and has Nothing to do with a timed period... Such as Daniel 9:27

Even though people refer to this time as the tribulation - it should be called the apocalypse or Daniel 70th week even which is 7 years... This replacement has cause this error in the words use...

Biblewriter · Jul 10, 2013

Manasseh_ said:
you can't make assumptions from explicit statements, you can add to them or reject them outright, but Christs' statements to his apostles in his Olivet prophecy are simple explicit statements and since they are prophecy they must come to pass as stated otherwise the prophecy is deemed false, scripture obviously says that God cannot lie

again the statements in order are
the great tribulation is over
heavenly signs begin to occur, sun darkened , moon doesn't give light, etc
The sign of the Son of man coming, Christ explains this earlier with the analogy of the great lightning flash symbolic of the brightness of his glory
the tribes of the earth mourn (everyone sees him coming)
next the command is given for his angels to gather his elect with the great sound of a trumpet blast

the sun being darkened and the moon not giving light are foretold by a number of prophets in the OT where it's called the Day of the Lord.............so again, scripture not only hints of this one single great return but explicitly foretells it from the prophets to Christ........

again these are direct statements made and very descriptive .........the description is without any kind of secrecy, everyone sees and hears him arrive

it's only pretribbers that have to make assumptions on all the verses they use because they don't have even one verse , one explicit statement that says Christ comes before great tribulation

Your rank assumption is that the Lord is only going to return one time. You cannot produce even one scripture that says that, for there is no such scripture.

I am not going to argue with you, for I have already presented extensive evidence that He will return more than just once.

KNOWLEDGE BOMB · Jul 10, 2013

Goldfish said

aul says 'comfort one another with this'.. and so I remain stuck on that, because the day of the Lord, just isn't a thing to comfort anyone

KNOWLEDGE BOMB said: the rapture is the day we comfort one another with...

Rev 6 shows the Sixth seal is when all eyes will see Him

He is revealed from heaven at right hand of power (like we are told)
every eye Sees Jesus come - this is day Paul tells all believers to wait with Him for (2thess 1:7) and Christ glory (1:10) because we believed what was said back in That day today!

144,000 are sealed from angels who bring Gods coming wrath
first time John sees believers in Heaven
and after the gathering God pours out His wrath

ao I see the rapture and Gods wrath happening at same event.
Seperated by half hour of silence.
That's what the bible shows anyway....

shturt678 · Jul 10, 2013

Biblewriter said:
Your rank assumption is that the Lord is only going to return one time. You cannot produce even one scripture that says that, for there is no such scripture.

I am not going to argue with you, for I have already presented extensive evidence that He will return more than just once.

Two passages, ie, Jn.5:28, 29 & 6:39 - all, the good, bad and ugly.

No Secret Rapture? -Nope!

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