Peter - on this rock - build my church - POWERS OF DEATH - shall not prevail

Sword of the Lord

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Matthew 16:18, broken up into the important parts to fit the allowed title space.

You'll notice POWERS OF DEATH in caps where GATES OF HELL would otherwise be. I was flipping the RSV-2CE and stopped when I saw "u - or the powers of death" in the reference system. I followed "u" to Matthew 16:18. I didn't know this verse could be translated as such. I researched it and it can, indeed, be translated like that.

In this context, it seems the Protestant claim that "rock" is Jesus, as it also refers to God everywhere else in scripture, and that it is fitting, seeing as death did not and could not prevail against Jesus, as he rose the 3rd day.

I'm not debating and I'm not even sure I'm asking a question, really. I just found this interesting. Insight or guidance would be appreciated.

i r confuzed
 

MarkRohfrietsch

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Matthew 16:18, broken up into the important parts to fit the allowed title space.

You'll notice POWERS OF DEATH in caps where GATES OF HELL would otherwise be. I was flipping the RSV-2CE and stopped when I saw "u - or the powers of death" in the reference system. I followed "u" to Matthew 16:18. I didn't know this verse could be translated as such. I researched it and it can, indeed, be translated like that.

In this context, it seems the Protestant claim that "rock" is Jesus, as it also refers to God everywhere else in scripture, and that it is fitting, seeing as death did not and could not prevail against Jesus, as he rose the 3rd day.

I'm not debating and I'm not even sure I'm asking a question, really. I just found this interesting. Insight or guidance would be appreciated.

i r confuzed

I can not speak for reformed protestants, but in Confessional Lutheranism, it is St. Peter's confession of faith that is the rock; faith that Jesus is the Christ (as prophesied in the OT), and that he is truly the son of the living God. As long as the Church remains faithful to these things, the gates of hell (physical death too) can have no dominion. This is what we teach and believe.:)
 
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Virgil the Roman

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And this is why we stick with the Douay-Rheims, Confraternity version of the Bible, or Msgr Knox's version. See the quotations of the versions as follows of St Matthew 16, 15-19:

Douay-Rheims Version said:
[16] Simon Peter answered and said: Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God. [17] And Jesus answering, said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. [18] And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [19] And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

And the Msgr Knox Version (another Traditional Catholic version although it is more 'dynamic' and less literal (as the D-R or Douay-Rheims is rather literal):

Msgr Knox said:
15 Jesus said to them, And what of you? Who do you say that I am? 16 Then Simon Peter answered, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.[b] 17 And Jesus answered him, Blessed art thou, Simon son of Jona; it is not flesh and blood, it is my Father in heaven that has revealed this to thee. 18 And I tell thee this in my turn, that thou art Peter, and it is upon this rock that I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it; 19 and I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (St Matthew 16, 15-19.)


Knox Bible (KNOX) - Version Information - BibleGateway.com
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Peter is the rock upon which the Church was built. It says it plain as day in Scripture.

"Thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Correct.

Peter's actual name was Simon, until Jesus conferred him to be Peter, translated from Greek, Petra, translated from Aramiac Kepha, which means, large rock.


Jim
 
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The Fire Rises

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I looked up the commentary for this verse in my Bible, and it said that it's pretty clear Jesus was referring specifically to Peter.

Question: Was Peter the first pope or something? Or did he somehow lead to the first pope?

(I'm sorry about my meager understanding of early church history, this is all new territory for me)
 
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ThePapist

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I looked up the commentary for this verse in my Bible, and it said that it's pretty clear Jesus was referring specifically to Peter.

Question: Was Peter the first pope or something? Or did he somehow lead to the first pope?

(I'm sorry about my meager understanding of early church history, this is all new territory for me)

Yes. Peter was the first Pope because Christ set him as the leader of the Church. That is why the Church is built on St. Peter. Peter is seen in Scripture as taking on this leadership role by his primacy. He was the first disciple called by Christ and was told by Christ to feed his sheep and to strengthen the faith of his brothers.
 
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Virgil the Roman

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It is well within their means to remains as they are RomanRite. Sadly, not everyone is as open-minded or convinced by the witness of the early Church as we'd like or that God wishes, so that they may embrace Jesus's Holy Catholic Church.

Even though Protestants, heretics though they may be, we must be careful to treat them with the utmost kindness and charity as our Blessed Lord obliges us to do. It is not our concern nor ability to know another soul's fate, but it is ours as Catholic Christians to GENTLY and loving tell them the Truth, as a friend and good neighbour. It's hard as heck. But a very good endeavour.

I know, I have Prots in my own family. I love 'em dearly. I certainly won't force them to embrace anything that they cannot as of yet in conscience embrace. (We're on all on a spiritual journey; not all of us were Catholic. I wasn't whenever I was your age, I used to be a vehement foaming-at-the-mouth-fundamentalist anti-Catholic Protestant, who through God's grace read the Early church Fathers and Scripture and later convereted.) Yet I pray for them and encourage them to be open toward the Catholic faith. I'm a merely their guide and help. It's God's grace that does the convert and they by their free wills do the accepting, resisting, or rejecting of His freely-given grace-and-help.

Pray and do penance for them for their conversion, but when you speak, do so with charity, humility, and gentleness, and kindness. Otherwise, by one harsh word you might accidently turn a man or woman away. It happens. But no worries and be of Good Cheer, we've Jesus with us always!

For as He said: 'Behold, I am with you All Days; even to the consummation of the world.'
 
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WarriorAngel

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Matthew 16:18, broken up into the important parts to fit the allowed title space.

You'll notice POWERS OF DEATH in caps where GATES OF HELL would otherwise be. I was flipping the RSV-2CE and stopped when I saw "u - or the powers of death" in the reference system. I followed "u" to Matthew 16:18. I didn't know this verse could be translated as such. I researched it and it can, indeed, be translated like that.

In this context, it seems the Protestant claim that "rock" is Jesus, as it also refers to God everywhere else in scripture, and that it is fitting, seeing as death did not and could not prevail against Jesus, as he rose the 3rd day.

I'm not debating and I'm not even sure I'm asking a question, really. I just found this interesting. Insight or guidance would be appreciated.

i r confuzed

Subtle as this might be - but Jesus was speaking Isaias 22 nearly verbatum.
I mean what would the point be for Isaiah to mention the steward to the King and the key and the open and shutting doors?
I mean for real, Jesus spoke this way - when handing the keys to Peter.

Keys signify the person has the power [per Isaiah] to lock and unlock the doors of the Kingdom.

Lest we neither know nor understand how Jesus was using this reference towards Peter.
AKA - Peter - you are my steward - and you can lock and unlock the MY Kingdom's doors...

What is a steward we ponder?
It the 'right hand man' who literally runs the Kingdom - staff - and all dealings and decisions in the absence of the King.
He is 'the man' outside of the Man. He takes the place - fills the shoes - does the stuff of the King.

Jesus made it pretty clear when speaking He was quoting Isaiah.

However; the gates of hell is anything heretical. ...heresy is death.
[Exception in invincible ignorance] - to depart with intent from that which the steward assigns is like directly refusing the King.

Which is why the Pope is literally standing in the place of the Lord because the Lord assigned His steward to do so.
Peter understood his position and ordained Clement l to eventually take his chair.
So Ireneaus wrote - a disciple and Bishop from Polycarp - taught by St John himself.

Also - take into account one cannot lay a foundation until the cornerstone is put down. Jesus calls Himself the cornerstone Who was rejected. In this sense - Peter is going to build off of Him - and be the foundation stemming from the cornerstone.

So with keys in hand - he unlocks and locks...
We cannot ignore the whole statement from Christ.

Taken apart - understanding Isaiah, and the importance of keys - and cornerstones and foundations - it all makes sense.

Only one man can be a steward. But like a king - they take the place of all his duties and authority.

So its much more than a sentence which taken into context - would be quite mad for the Lord to say it is Himself He is referring to - when it is a steward He is leaving to do His duties.

He tells them another time - he sends them out. To do His ministry. To take His place. All of them have this particular duty. However; as King being a single position - so is a steward. You dont have several kinds and never several stewards.

Which is why the 'keys' were ceremoniously placed into the hands of one. One steward can exist as one king exists.
But because all do His ministry in a unique way - He assigns them keys to be in the 'protective' care of the one steward.

So all must go to the steward to be received.
One cannot open and close without the steward - therefore they cannot bind or loose.
For binding and loosing are the symbol of opening and shutting the lock of the Kingdom.

One King - one steward.

If one breaks away from the Kingdom - they cannot take use of the keys assigned to one man.
Only one is entrusted with all authority to over see all the others.
Their keys are to put themselves in the position to do the ministry - but without the main 'gate keeper' they can have no such luck at opening and shutting - aka loosing and binding.

It is what it is - even if it is unpopular and loathed that the Lord chose Isaiah to share this prophesy. If it is unpopular that ppl must willing submit to a steward as they would the King - it is still - what it is.
 
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Jimmy P

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Forgive me if this sounds stupid, but since Peter was the first Pope, did he dress up like the Popes do now, and swing the incense thingy around?

Or was he still out and about witnessing to others as Jesus commanded?
 
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JimR-OCDS

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Forgive me if this sounds stupid, but since Peter was the first Pope, did he dress up like the Popes do now, and swing the incense thingy around?

Or was he still out and about witnessing to others as Jesus commanded?

Most likely not. For one, the Church was persecuted when Peter was in Rome, so they had to do most of their work in secret.

He probably didn't spend much time in Rome before being arrested and crucified in the Roman Circus.

Jim
 
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Jimmy P

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Isn't it ironic that the Romans crucified Jesuse...crucified Peter...but yet the Vatican is in Rome?

I figured ol' Peter was still out winning souls to Jesus...that's cool...and back then, it would have been so scary cause you knew if you got busted, you were pretty much dead meat...the Apostles rocked!
 
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sonshine234

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All I have to say to Protestants is read what the Early Fathers said on this topic. If they reject what even the Fathers say, let them remain heretics as they please.
It is not just Protestants that do not believe the claims of the Catholic Church in regards to that verse but also the Orthodox. I know the Orthodox communion believes that Peter was first among equals
 
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