Did Satan Have Free Will In Heaven?

1watchman · Dec 23, 2010

1watchman said:
Of all the angels, Lucifer (enlightened one) was given special gifts and characteristics to see how he would handle it. None other was given such liberty, except man later. He decided to be as God and began to gather angels to follow him (that is when God put a stop to it and made "elect angels", who were sanctified, I believe). Lucifer was cast out and then became representative of all influence outside of God --darkness, evil, chaos, etc. He became an agent to test man, I believe, and was called Satan, an adversary.

We need to see that God, who knows the end from the beginning, set forth Satan to test man, and then began what we know as the seven dispensations (one can study this in the Word). Satan will eventually be cast away to condemnation after serving God's purposes, and the Lord will reign supreme for evermore. This is just a bit of overview.

- 1 Watchman

The quote above should be noted as an overview, as stated, and in this context one might have additional Q. to raise - e.g. why would God create evil -Isa. 45:7, as one has said? That is a mistranslation according to most Bible theologians. It should have been translated "sorrow; wretchedness; adversity; afflictions; calamities; as the fruit of sin, but never as God's work of sin (see C. I. Scofield).

For other responses I would be pleased to share further light from commentators if one should contact me personally, but not here where the winds of offense are strong. Look up always!

- 1 Watchman

served · Dec 23, 2010

1watchman said:
The quote above should be noted as an overview, as stated, and in this context one might have additional Q. to raise - e.g. why would God create evil -Isa. 45:7, as one has said? That is a mistranslation according to most Bible theologians. It should have been translated "sorrow; wretchedness; adversity; afflictions; calamities; as the fruit of sin, but never as God's work of sin (see C. I. Scofield).

For other responses I would be pleased to share further light from commentators if one should contact me personally, but not here where the winds of offense are strong. Look up always!

- 1 Watchman

I have to disagree on the mistranslation. The original hebrew word was used regularly in the OT. Of course theologians would not want to believe this, goes against their personal beliefs.

רעה רע
ra‛ râ‛âh
rah, raw-aw'
From H7489; bad or (as noun) evil (naturally or morally). This includes the second (feminine) form; as adjective or noun
KJV Usage: adversity, affliction, bad, calamity, + displease (-ure), distress, evil ([-favouredness], man, thing), + exceedingly, X great, grief (-vous), harm, heavy, hurt (-ful), ill (favoured), + mark, mischief, (-vous), misery, naught (-ty), noisome, + not please, sad (-ly), sore, sorrow, trouble, vex, wicked (-ly, -ness, one), worse (-st) wretchedness, wrong. [Including feminine raah; as adjective or noun.]
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions

רעה רע
adj
1. bad, evil
a. bad, disagreeable, malignant
b. bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)
c. evil, displeasing
d. bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)
e. bad (of value)
f. worse than, worst (comparison)
g. sad, unhappy
h. evil (hurtful)
i. bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)
j. bad, evil, wicked (ethically)
1. in general, of persons, of thoughts
2. deeds, actions n m
2. evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity
a. evil, distress, adversity
b. evil, injury, wrong
c. evil (ethical) n f
3. evil, misery, distress, injury
a. evil, misery, distress
b. evil, injury, wrong
c. evil (ethical)

BiblebelievingChristian · Dec 23, 2010

Kutte said:
BiblebelievingChristian,

Regarding your comment:
Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. It's as absurd as saying that a white man is so white that he is actually a black man. Or like saying that too much light in a room makes the room dark. It's the fallacy of contradiction. This kind of confusion is what happens when people mix the teachings of the world with their faith.

Response
Let me clarify:
Evil is a quality which leads to one's destruction. Too much badness, for instance, such as becoming a victim in an airplane crash or being shot during a robery.

Likewise, too much goodness can lead to one's destruction, for instance, while living in an environment lacking challenges, problems, being provided with everything for free, where there is no heat or cold, every wish being granted instantly.
Incentives for creativity are missing since they do require certain problems or challenges to overcome. Needless to say, that overcoming a challenge may result in sweat and pain.
Ergo, an existence void of any 'badness' whatsoever will lead to eternal boredom and death.

The answer to the above is balance.

Kutte

I think I get what you are trying to say, but it would be better to say that God gave us freewill and allowed for the fall of Adam and Eve knowing that it would lead to Him showing us how much He truly loves us by dying for our sins. The Garden of Eden was good, but our opportunity to know and love Jesus was an even greater good. I don't agree with you that good is boring. There are a lot of activities in life that are not evil and are not boring, and we can't imagine what Jesus has waiting for those of us who will reign with Him in Heaven.

gideons300 · Dec 26, 2010

BiblebelievingChristian said:
You are incorrect. According to Genesis, God created everything good. God did not create evil. To say that any evil comes from God is to deny His perfect Holiness. To understand this better we have to first understand that evil is not a creation, it is the absence of a good. God created all things good. But God gave us and the angels freewill to choose to do what is right or not to choose to do what is right. Since all things that are good come from God, any place that is devoid of God is going to also be devoid of anything good. And that kind of place is what we call Hell.

To understand why Satan is forever evil we have to understand how angels are different than us. Unlike us humans who have a physical brain which has it's limits and often can give us clouded judgment resulting in a change of mind, angels don't have a physical body and therefore have pure thought and perfect understanding. So when angels were given a choice to go with God's plan for the Incarnation or to reject it, they understood perfectly the choice they were making. That's why when satan made his decision not to follow God's plan it was a final decision that won't ever change. In other words, Satan freely chose to reject God forever.

I know where you are coming from on this but it simply is not scriptural. Isaiah tells us:

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7

Please understand, I am not saying the Lord himself is evil. You are correct, he is pure light. But by creating light, it automatically makes darkness, and by creating good, the opposite is also created.

We are coming to the point in history, the culmination, the seperation of the two. There will be no night in heaven, There will be on sin there. We all are in the valley of decision, and every day we are making choices revealing what we really love, our flesh that is selfish and evil, or Christ abiding in our hearts, leading us, changing us, infusing us wuith His righteous character.

We must remember, fogiveness will profit us nothing if we do not hate darkness and love the light and dispaly it in our lifestyle. That is the real proof of what we love, of where our heart is. Repentance is not a one time thing, but a mindset. Many will be shocked on judgement day, thinking they have it covered, but their deeds were still evil. And there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth, and this by those who thought themselves good Christians. It is sobering indeed. We are counseled to examine ourselves, not our doctrine, but our lives, as to where are heart is and whether or not we are truly "in the faith".

Many think the grace of God is to cover our sins and it is. But then the grace of God has a second job.

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world.
Titus 2:12-14

If it is not accomplishing that in our lives, something is dangerously amiss. Now is the time to fix it. There is still time. If secret sins, or a worldly lifestlye is dominant in our lives, there is hope, but a real desire to be holy, a hungering for righteousness must be present for God to do His amazing work. This call must sound forth to all of us, myself at the forefront of need, that forgivness is of NO value if we still love the darkness. This and this alone is why Jesus came and died for us:

Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

May God give us all ears to hear.

Blessings,

Bruce

toolite · Dec 27, 2010

I posed the question because I want everyone to think about things more.. for yourself.

All The Glory Belongs To God Forever!

patience7 · Dec 27, 2010

toolite said:
I am asking this question because if satan was in heaven how could he be envious and demonstrate jealousy while in Heaven?

So I pose the question did satan have free will in heaven?

All The Glory Belongs To God Forever!

All I know is that Lucifer (Satan) started out in heaven as a glorious angel. We don't think much about angels having actual "will of their own" at least I had never really thought about it. But aparently they do because we see how Lucifer fell and he was cast out because he wanted to be God. He fell due to pride; Isaiah 14:13-14 I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Note he says "I" 5 times in just these two verses!

toolite · Dec 27, 2010

patience7 said:
All I know is that Lucifer (Satan) started out in heaven as a glorious angel. We don't think much about angels having actual "will of their own" at least I had never really thought about it. But aparently they do because we see how Lucifer fell and he was cast out because he wanted to be God. He fell due to pride; Isaiah 14:13-14 I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Note he says "I" 5 times in just these two verses!

Good Point!

All The Glory Belongs To God Forever!

miamited · Dec 27, 2010

Hi Patience,

Yes, I agree. And if we read the last two chapters of the Revelation we find that the angels who made their free choice to shake their fist at God will be gathered up with the flesh who also made their free choce to shake their fist at God and will all be sent out from God's eternal presence to live in suffering and sorrow for eternity with each other.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

served · Dec 27, 2010

patience7 said:
All I know is that Lucifer (Satan) started out in heaven as a glorious angel. We don't think much about angels having actual "will of their own" at least I had never really thought about it. But aparently they do because we see how Lucifer fell and he was cast out because he wanted to be God. He fell due to pride; Isaiah 14:13-14 I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Note he says "I" 5 times in just these two verses!

I see your point but we got to understand that ALL of this is God's WILL. If Satan were to have will it was because GOD had planned his creation. You can't say his will is truly FREE because he was created by GOD who new what was to come of him. Did GOD make a mistake here? I don't think GOD had, will, or ever will make a mistake. Obviously if GOD did not want this he would not have allowed or created it. Plain and simple.

miamited · Dec 27, 2010

Hi served,

You responded:
I see your point but we got to understand that ALL of this is God's WILL. If Satan were to have will it was because GOD had planned his creation. You can't say his will is truly FREE because he was created by GOD who new what was to come of him. Did GOD make a mistake here? I don't think GOD had, will, or ever will make a mistake. Obviously if GOD did not want this he would not have allowed or created it. Plain and simple.

I know that you probably mean well and I'm sure you're a wise and good person, but I can't let that statement stand without objection. The only thing I see in this statement that is plain and simple is that you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Here's the simplist truth to disprove your concept of God's will.
"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

It would seem plain and simple that Jesus' statement here allows that there are two kinds of people on the earth. Those who do God's will and those who don't. Your argument would have to claim that those who do not do God's will are doing God's will by not doing God's will. Fairly confusing isn't it?

And:
If anyone chooses to doGod's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Notice here that Jesus clearly explains that it is our free choice to do God's will. Again, your understanding would say that even when we don't choose to do God's will, it is God's will.

There are things that go on on this earth every day that are not God's will. That God allows these things to happen is explained in 2 Peter and again speaks of God's will:
The LORD is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God allows the wickedness and evil to continue because, and possibly you don't understand this, if He didn't, you would have already been destroyed. God can easily destroy sin and wickedness, but unfortunately for Him to do that now would mean that you and I and everyone else who is a sinner, that should just about cover everyone, would have already been destroyed. God is being patient, allowing the seasons and times to continue unabated, but there will come a time when He's going to show all of us just how easy it will be for Him to destroy sin and death.

My friend, to teach that all things that happen in this life are God's will, is quite frankly, to this author, a blasphemy before God.

God bless you, my freind.
In Christ, Ted

served · Dec 27, 2010

miamited said:
Hi served,

You responded:
I see your point but we got to understand that ALL of this is God's WILL. If Satan were to have will it was because GOD had planned his creation. You can't say his will is truly FREE because he was created by GOD who new what was to come of him. Did GOD make a mistake here? I don't think GOD had, will, or ever will make a mistake. Obviously if GOD did not want this he would not have allowed or created it. Plain and simple.

I know that you probably mean well and I'm sure you're a wise and good person, but I can't let that statement stand without objection. The only thing I see in this statement that is plain and simple is that you are wrong, wrong, wrong.

Here's the simplist truth to disprove your concept of God's will.
"Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

It would seem plain and simple that Jesus' statement here allows that there are two kinds of people on the earth. Those who do God's will and those who don't. Your argument would have to claim that those who do not do God's will are doing God's will by not doing God's will. Fairly confusing isn't it?

And:
If anyone chooses to doGod's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Notice here that Jesus clearly explains that it is our free choice to do God's will. Again, your understanding would say that even when we don't choose to do God's will, it is God's will.

There are things that go on on this earth every day that are not God's will. That God allows these things to happen is explained in 2 Peter and again speaks of God's will:
The LORD is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God allows the wickedness and evil to continue because, and possibly you don't understand this, if He didn't, you would have already been destroyed. God can easily destroy sin and wickedness, but unfortunately for Him to do that now would mean that you and I and everyone else who is a sinner, that should just about cover everyone, would have already been destroyed. God is being patient, allowing the seasons and times to continue unabated, but there will come a time when He's going to show all of us just how easy it will be for Him to destroy sin and death.

My friend, to teach that all things that happen in this life are God's will, is quite frankly, to this author, a blasphemy before God.

God bless you, my freind.
In Christ, Ted

Ted,
Thanks for your concern,
I am stunned at these verses you just gave me as they quite simply say the opposite of what you are claiming. Please read below...

You quoted John 7:17. But if you read verse 16 Jesus is saying this is not of me this is of GOD. And verse 17 does not clearly say we are in charge or control of GOD's plan like your stating.

Joh 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.

Then you quote
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You just quoted a verse that says He is patient and basically by his will does not wish any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
Do you think GOD will not succeed here? Do you really believe that he will not accomplish this at some point?

You quote,
Mar 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.
Yes his will, good and bad. It may not make sense why we have evil but its all by design. Sorry this still doesn't show me anything about what you claim.

Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

One last thing I want to add here...
God knows the beginning from the End right. So if God knows and says you are to choose eggs for breakfast you cannot change your mind and say no I'm having Bacon instead. We cannot outsmart him, he knows beginning to end. We have to look at this spiritually to really understand this. Its not that we are robots but GOD made US how he wanted, he foreknew what would happen to each of us, ALL IS OF HIS WILL, THY WILL BE DONE. Do you believe his will , will be done?

miamited · Dec 27, 2010

Hi again served,

You responded:
You just quoted a verse that says He is patient and basically by his will does not wish any should perish but that ALL should come to repentance.
Do you think GOD will not succeed here? Do you really believe that he will not accomplish this at some point?

I'm guessing you're a universalist as far as your theology of salvation. I'm not and that probably explains our inability to come to agreement. I absolutely know that He will not accomplish that at any point. I find confirmation of that in the last two chapters of the Revelation which is the end of this realm.

If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

You then wrote:
Yes his will, good and bad. It may not make sense why we have evil but its all by design.

Not by God's design. I'm sorry friend, but I will never be in agreement with such a claim.

Finally you asked:

One last thing I want to add here...
God knows the beginning from the End right. So if God knows and says you are to choose eggs for breakfast you cannot change your mind and say no I'm having Bacon instead. We cannot outsmart him, he knows beginning to end. We have to look at this spiritually to really understand this. Its not that we are robots but GOD made US how he wanted, he foreknew what would happen to each of us, ALL IS OF HIS WILL, THY WILL BE DONE. Do you believe his will , will be done?

No. According to the Son, it is God's will that all come to salvation through him and I'm assured that that won't happen.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

served · Dec 27, 2010

Ted,
Unilateralist as far as salvation, yeah probably I don't associate with a group though I prefer to be called Christ Believer or follower. But salvation and lake of fire, etc. is a whole new thread not really related to FREE WILL but I am willing to discuss my thoughts on another thread with you about salvation and the meaning of lake of fire, revelations, etc. My post might have gotten lost in the salvation aspect but I was just using the verse you had quoted not my intentions here.

DragonLord35 · Jul 9, 2013

Ok, so who created angels? And, furthermore, who created the characteristics of angels, which, according to your philosophy, is the ability to create a "vacuum without good". I mean, why let God off the hook here. Like Ricky said to Lucy, "You got some explainin' to do."

GUANO · Jul 9, 2013

Satan, pan, prometheus, lucifer, azazel.... Whatever you want to call it, it is not some singular entity. It is a behavior made manifest by by a motivational principle.... It is a spirit. Based on the descriptions of Satan in the bible as well as what satanists, occultists and luciferians themselves say... Satan is the spirit of ego... The flesh... Self preservation.... Why do you think self sacrifice is the most important element of Christianity?

mmksparbud · Jul 9, 2013

EZE 28:13--"Thou has been in Eden the Garden of God: every precious stone was thy covering.............the workmanship if thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14.-Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth: and I have set thee so: thou was upon the holy mountain of God: thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15--Thou wast perfect in all they ways from the day that thou wast created, til iniquity was found in thee......17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness.."

God did not create an Adversary, God did not create Satan--He created Lucifer--and he was perfect--until he focused his attention on himself, instead of God. He was envious and dragged 1/3 of the angels with him. None of this could have happened if Lucifer and the angels did not have free will.
Some people think that God created "the Adversary", Satan, to be an adversary--but that is not biblical. Lucifer was perfect. God would not create Satan to be an evil adversary and then punish him for being that
way!!

mmksparbud · Jul 9, 2013

DragonLord35 said:
Ok, so who created angels? And, furthermore, who created the characteristics of angels, which, according to your philosophy, is the ability to create a "vacuum without good". I mean, why let God off the hook here. Like Ricky said to Lucy, "You got some explainin' to do."

That should be "you got some splainin to do"-- ^_^

Rubiks · Jul 9, 2013

When God created satan, i imagine he did not originally have a sin nature, so yeah... he had free will...

GUANO · Jul 9, 2013

DragonLord35 said:
Ok, so who created angels? And, furthermore, who created the characteristics of angels, which, according to your philosophy, is the ability to create a "vacuum without good". I mean, why let God off the hook here. Like Ricky said to Lucy, "You got some explainin' to do."

Before you can ask that question you have to define exactly WHAT angels are.

ancientsoul · Jul 9, 2013

thought i would throw a few more scriptures in the mix ...

Genesis 1:4 ... And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from darkness.

Psalm 104:20 ... O Lord, how manifold arwe thy works! In wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.

an interesting scripture ... Psalm 104:26 ... There fo the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein.

Psalm 74:16 ... The day is thine, the night also is thine: thou hast prepared the light and the sun.

Psalm 105:28 ... He sent darkness, and made it dark; and they rebelled not against his word.

Lamentations 3:38 ... Out of the mouth of the the Most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Job 2:10 ... But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Jeremiah 32:42 ... For thus saith the Lord: Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

Amos 3:6 ... Sall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the Lord hath not done it?

2 Timothy 2:25,26 ... In meekiness, instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Colssians 1:17 ... And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

while i don't presume to know why God does all that He does, i can hazard a guess ...

some things have been aid already ... definitely if there is no ligght, thetheere can be no darknes ... they go hand in hand in my view ... and we could not possibly understanddGod's goodness without the evil ... i also believe real true love makeas no demands ... never does God say we have to obey Him ... the things that appen when we don't are the consequences of not choosing Him ... and even then we see evil every day prospering ... those who choose the enemy do so because they want to ... we choose the blessing or we choose the curse, sort of ... i believe it is very fair of the Lord as Creator to give all good to those who love and obey Him ... and i think it's fair He does whatever He decides to do to those whatever they choose ... it's His world, He created it, and He created us ... no big question to me ...

Satan and his fell with free will ... for me there is no question ... the only question i have is why anyone would not choose Him ... but it is so ... we can't know good if we don't know bad ... it's that simple in my mind ... like a child will choose a lemon over a sugar cube ... UNTIL he knows the difference ... and then it will mostly be the sugar ... i look forward to the day when there is peace without the enemy ...

i believe right along with all other things He created there became random events ... people becoming more and more obese is not God's will ... just isn't ... all that man made with the gifts God gave are not always good ... in socviety we see many returning to the basic foods because of the intense ugliness of what man created to eat ... God created certain foods to be eaten and certain foods not to be eaten ... and THEN we make the choice to eat things like maragarine ... much the same as plastic ... never did He tell us to go eat plastic and never did He tell us to eat as much food as we can stuff in ... and i do not believe He decideds everything we eat ... seriosuly ... if that were the case all accountability goes out the window ... just doesn't work that way ... it works His Way ... might take His will to undo the damage ... but not to do the damage ...

all that said, i do believe there is a certain number (another thread) that i do believe He will interfer in their lives ... those who fought against Satan and his in the first age ... they have already proven themselves ... i believe He watches over them with a different view than the others ...

Satan and his fell because they rebelled ... period ... God, in my mind did not say 'hey, madeja perfect ... now go seek, kill, and destroy' ... i feel He left the choice open or there would be no rebellion ... who rebels against a non-existent anything ... they are in chains because they refused to be born through the womb here ... amongst other things ... through the womb (water) ... then we are to be born of the Spirit here ... sometimes i think delivered is a better word than born, but i leave it to Him ...

when we raise our children we know they will some day leave home and will someday go against (big or small) something they have been taught buy us ... it is IN man to sin ... and it is IN man to be delivered ... from evil ... when all get there chance at choosing ... then will the next age open and evil will not have a place ... for a spell ... Revelation 20:3 ... And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, that he should deceive the nations no more, til the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. ... i believe for the trying and testing of those who were never given a chance to make that decision ... first they will be taught ... then he will be loosed again ... and then we move on ... God is fair, just, and good ... He makes every Way possible for man ... IF they love Him and If they obey HIm ... not good to all so they can go torment others with it ... doesn't add up ...

as to light and dark ... again balance in all things ...

anyway ... some scriptures and some thoughts ...

Did Satan Have Free Will In Heaven?

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