the AofD signal

interpreter said:

I do not know anything about 490 years. Where did you get that? The Church also teaches that when red tides come and stay, it will signal the coming of Christ.

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You know, but you disagree with it.

Doug

Interplanner said:

re making people accept.
OK, now I see what you're doing. You're assuming that when the Gospel, or the Gospel of the kingdom comes, it is going to make/impose/force people to accept it. It does not. It is always like Rom 9-11 says: it is by faith. That's why the genetic groupings (ethnicities) no longer matter. There is only faith vs unbelief. Those who have faith are the new Israel.

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Inter, listen to yourself sometime. You say that genetic groupings no long matter and turn around and want to make it an issue by saying those who have faith are the new Israel. Why not say that they are new creations in Christ instead - that's actually in the bible.

Doug

Douggg said:

Inter, listen to yourself sometime. You say that genetic groupings no long matter and turn around and want to make it an issue by saying those who have faith are the new Israel. Why not say that they are new creations in Christ instead - that's actually in the bible.

Doug

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Paul quotes Hosea in speaking of this lost kingdom.

He is showing gentiles being grafted into Ephraim, not Judah.

That Ephraim went and became gentiles and likewise gentiles are grafted into Ephraim's promise.

This is what makes the Gentile and Jew one body.

This grafting and adoption doesn't replace any Jew, it only adds gentiles to come and fulfill the promise spoken to the Lost Ephraim who became gentiles.

23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

25As he says in Hosea:{spoken of Ephraim}

“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,”i


When Paul says this, the children of the kingdom of Ephraim had been lost into the gentiles nations for 750 years.




.

Interplanner said:

btw, the new creations of 2 Cor 5 and Gal 6 are the new Israel in which ethnicity does not matter.

I don't follow you Hannibal because right where Paul is trying to show the Jew and Gentile on equal basis before the Gospel you have turned 'Gentile' in to previous Ephraimite Jews. Ever read Acts? People become Christians from all over in fulfillment of the OT, and their only ethnicity is simply that they are not Jews.

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Study the 700 year history of both Kingdoms.

There is a kingdom of Israel and a Kingdom of Judah.

The Kingdom of Israel had a 700 year history living side by side with Jews and these Israelites were never Jews.

The Israelites of this Kingdom that lived next to the Jews invented their own worship system about another God.

They built their own Temple in a different city and t6hey stayed separated from Judah for 700 years until God put an end to their nation and said,'' YOU ARE NOT MY PEOPLE AND I WILL NOT BE YOUR GOD.''

Hosea says that God puts a complete end to them saving that 7000 of them are reserved.

These non Jewish Israelites became gentiles before God ever sent them into the nations where they became lost amongst the gentiles.

700 years before Jesus came they had completely lost their identity when the King of Assyria took them into Assyria.



Paul doesn't show Jesus turning to gentiles, Jesus turns to Ephraim who had become gentiles and thus represented all gentiles.

The prophecy of Ephraim's return is that although they became, ''Not his people-GENTILES"" God would accept them as Gentiles when the Messiah would come and gather gentiles under the promise.

Hosea says that in the same place where God had called them Gentiles, there they would be called the sons of the living God.

This shows Jesus doing just this, ----Jesus Begins His Ministry
…15The land of Zebulon, and the land of Naphthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles; 16The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up. YOU HAVE MULTIPLIED THE NATION.

This is Isaiah 9 specifically talking about the lost Ephraim in the land of Naphtali and Zebulun which IS EPHRAIM.

1Nevertheless, there will be no more gloom for those who were in distress. In the past he humbled the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, but in the future he will honor Galilee of the nations, by the Way of the Sea, beyond the Jordan—

John the Baptist prepared the way for these gentiles to marry a Jewish man, thus redeeming this gentiles as brides.

John is a friend of the bridegroom who prepares the way for the bride{gentiles}.

This is all about Ephraim and this verse is applied to Jesus,'' Out of Egypt I called my son.''




When Israel was a child, I loved him,
and out of Egypt I called my son.
2But the more they were called,
the more they went away from me.a
They sacrificed to the Baals
and they burned incense to images.
3It was I who taught Ephraim to walk,
taking them by the arms;
but they did not realize
it was I who healed them.
4I led them with cords of human kindness,
with ties of love.
To them I was like one who lifts
a little child to the cheek,
and I bent down to feed them.
5“Will they not return to Egypt
and will not Assyria rule over them
because they refuse to repent?
6A sword will flash in their cities;
it will devour their false prophets
and put an end to their plans.
7My people are determined to turn from me.
Even though they call me God Most High,
I will by no means exalt them.

8“How can I give you up, Ephraim?
How can I hand you over, Israel?
How can I treat you like Admah?
How can I make you like Zeboyim?
My heart is changed within me;
all my compassion is aroused.
9I will not carry out my fierce anger,
nor will I devastate Ephraim again.
For I am God, and not a man—
the Holy One among you.
I will not come against their cities.
10They will follow the Lord;
he will roar like a lion.
When he roars,
his children will come trembling from the west.
11They will come from Egypt,
trembling like sparrows,
from Assyria, fluttering like doves.
I will settle them in their homes,”
declares the Lord.

Interplanner said:

the Gospel is not just to resolve the two Israeli kingdoms problem. it is to put Jews and non-Jews together in one body, one new man, one living temple. It doesn't matter anymore what internecine conflicts there are in Israel. Read every passage in Paul on the absence of ethnicity or race or gender and it never ever has to do with things internal to Israel. It has to do with between these groups. (You would include Samaria as gentile even if it has some sort of lost tribe status).

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Nope, The mission of the Messiah is EXACTLY to come and strengthen Judah and to Save the tents of Joseph.

Any Jew, any Messianic would point you to the MULTITUDE of scripture showing that the Mission of the Messiah is to return the kingdom back to Israel, To gather the lost gentiles of Ephraim to make them one body with Judah.

IN EVERY MESSIANIC prophecy, this is true.

God comes and strengthen Judah first, and then he gathers the exiles of Ephraim who became Gentiles and now symbolize all gentiles into one Body with the Jew.

Look at any prophecy that people claim to be during a Messianic Age and you will ALWAYS find that Judah and the lost Ephraim become one.

When the house of David and the house of Joseph and the inhabitants of Jerusalem all become one, they mount up and fight ALL the nations.


When Judah and Ephraim will be combined in Ezekiel, Isaiah, Hosea, Zechariah, Zephaniah, Amos, and all the prophets, Judah and Ephraim become like Gods, like the angel of the Lord who stands before the throne.


This mission has never been fulfilled but it will be fulfilled when Christians and Jews become one.

God didn't create a new Israel and he did not abandon his chosen people.

God only turned from one brother to the other.

Jesus came to unite the Jew and Gentile under Judah and Ephraim.

But Judah rejected the messenger of the covenant and would not have him as king.

Jesus was already lining up gentiles from Galilee to make them one, but Judah said no.

So Jesus turned to the other brother, but they soon separated and the brotherhood between Judah and this new Ephraim was broken again.

So again the Messiah will come and he will turn back to Judah and they will accept him, after that, as Paul says,'' Then All Israel will be gathered.''

Interplanner said:

But Paul doesn't say "then." he says "kai houtos" = 'in this manner' What is the manner or method? With part of Israel hardened as he has been saying all through 9-11.

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Romans 9-2 That I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accused from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh, who are{The lost} Israelites-----TO WHOM PERTAIN THE ADOPTION.


This adoption Paul is speaking of is the adoption of the lost Israel into Judah.

He goes on talking about Israel, not Judah.


He shows that Israel was the flock of destruction and chosen for destruction.{The kingdom of Ephraim.}

Romans 9:24 even us whom he called, not of the Jews only, but also of gentiles?

As he says also in Hosea about {EPHRAIM}.

I will call them my people, who were not my people.


This prophecy is directly quoting Hosea about Ephraim becoming not God's people.

Paul is showing that God put an end to the Northern kingdom to graft Gentiles into this kingdom.

This isn't the only place he teaches it either.

Interplanner said:

But in talking to Gentile audiences (ie Galatians, Romans) would it matter? he never uses the phrase 'northern kingdom' in any of the discussion of what he is getting across. You can have it if you want, so long as Jews realize the basis for membership and activity in the new group is faith in Christ, and open to all ethnicities, so there is no boasting.

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What if I showed you from Galatians or another book?

Would you believe it?

I already showed you in Romans and Galatians goes further in explaining Romans.

But you already have the prophecy spoken to Ephraim.

The prophecy is very direct and clear cut from Hosea.

It concerns Ephraim and Ephraim became gentiles, and through Ephraim Gentiles obtained the promise which made gentile and Jew one body.

To begin with and most important is because there is no covenant with anyone accept Ephraim and Judah.

A New Covenant
31Behold, the days come, said the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was an husband to them, said the LORD: 33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, said the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Besides this, You would make the truth very simple in the last days.

The truth would be this.

God comes to bind them together to fight all nations.

The end of this is all the gentiles bringing all the wealth to the feet of the Jews. I have no problem with that now.

But all the great Messianic prophecies that speak of the Messiah in the last days, is a Messiah that only comes to Ephraim and Judah, everyone else are servants and or dead.

When the spirit is greatly poured out, it is poured on Judah, and Ephraim.

One Nation Under One King
15The word of the Lord came to me: 16“Son of man, take a stick of wood and write on it, ‘Belonging to Judah and the Israelites associated with him.’ Then take another stick of wood, and write on it, ‘Belonging to Joseph (that is, to Ephraim) and all the Israelites associated with him.’ 17Join them together into one stick so that they will become one in your hand.
18“When your people ask you, ‘Won’t you tell us what you mean by this?’ 19say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I am going to take the stick of Joseph—which is in Ephraim’s hand—and of the Israelite tribes associated with him, and join it to Judah’s stick. I will make them into a single stick of wood, and they will become one in my hand.’ 20Hold before their eyes the sticks you have written on 21and say to them, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. 22I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel. There will be one king over all of them and they will never again be two nations or be divided into two kingdoms. 23They will no longer defile themselves with their idols and vile images or with any of their offenses, for I will save them from all their sinful backsliding,b and I will cleanse them. They will be my people, and I will be their God.
24“ ‘My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees. 25They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. They and their children and their children’s children will live there forever, and David my servant will be their prince forever. 26I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant. I will establish them and increase their numbers, and I will put my sanctuary among them forever. 27My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 28Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.’ ”


ALL the prophecies are about Ephraim and Judah.

If you don't fit gentiles in, they have no covenant, and God is not coming to save them and they will find no glory at all.

You are either Ephraim or Judah or you are nobody.

Ephraim did not become gentiles. They were still descended from the ten tribes of Jacob.

I don't disagree that Ephraim and Judah being reunited. But I do disagree that Ephraim became gentiles.

Doug

Douggg said:

Ephraim did not become gentiles. They were still descended from the ten tribes of Jacob.

I don't disagree that Ephraim and Judah being reunited. But I do disagree that Ephraim became gentiles.

Doug

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Well Douggg, History would argue the fact with you.

Elijah was told that there were 7000 reserved to God and they went over to Judah.

But the rest of the entire kingdom went off and became gentiles.

That's just a fact.


It's not like God didn't say he was going to do it by several prophets.

He said he was going to do it and he did it.

Interplanner said:

well Hannibal, enjoy being the first person who has said in this in my 40 years of study. The NT background scholars like Metger (Greek NT), Bruce, Cullman, Nolland, Morris, Packer, Peterson, N.T. Wright, etc., yep they all missed it.

How many Ephraimites were alive in the 2nd generation after Cain? I've forgot, but I'm sure it's there in code! I say that to point out that the promise to all mankind is from Gen 3 forward, and fulfilled in the events of the historic Jesus Christ.

The Elijah incident has nothing to do with sub classes of Israel; it just means that God can raise (or not raise) up the ministers he wants from anywhere. In fact, he was raising up some from Pisidia and Helene and Italia even as Paul wrote those words. Last I heard they were not Ephraimites.

As for Jer 23--33, be sure you are following the NT interp first. It does not end up being so Judaic after all, although at first the picture would help those in Israel see something of what is coming.

All that you are saying would be true if it were not for the fact that it is a picture of the rest of the world, which picture you have missed. We would expect this in Paul (sent to the nations) but it is in Peter as well, speaking to the 'scattered elect', telling them they are
the living temple,
the priesthood,
the chosen people,
the holy nation,
the people of God,
the 'now you are a people...now you have recieved mercy.' (ch2)
That is why I said, there are differences resolved that have nothing to do with Israel as in Gal 3:28 and Col 3:11. The Gospel of Christ speaks to all that, not just your pet issue, if it is one.

Therefore there is nothing Judaic found in the scenarios of the future in the ordinary-language passages about the 2nd coming like Rom 8, I Cor 15, 2 Pet 3, Heb 9. (Ordinary as opposed to the truckloads of symbols of the Rev).

I appreciate your tenacity, but tenacity or persistence is not in itself a reason. Do you have reasons or just this 1st-time-ever-heard doctrine monotone?

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Ephraim became a kingdom around the end of Solomon's reign.


Let me ask you a question---- Who was Elijah sent to?

You think the Jews of Judah were present when Elijah called down fire from heaven?

I am not the first to know the mystery that Paul taught, there are many books about it.

It didn't originate from me, but when I learned of it, I was already very well studied on the history of the two kingdoms.

God did away with one just like he said, and one remains.

We haven't heard from the lost ten tribes for 2700 years.