Can Christians Lose Their Salvation?

Bella Vita said:

No scripture is clear that once we are his he will not let us go. Those who have had faith and left where never really saved in the first place. Once God starts a work in someone he doesn't just stop and he doesn't make mistakes. People have times in life when they stray from God's presence but it doesn't mean they aren't saved.

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That's a nice summary of the Bible's teaching on this subject.

aiki said:

That's not what Christ said, though, is it? He doesn't speak of those who are abiding in him but not producing fruit. He says specifically that he is speaking of those who do not abide in him (vs. 6). These are the ones who are "withered branches" that are cast into the fire and burned. Puts a bit of a crimp in the idea that Jesus is teaching that one can be saved and lost in the passage from John 15.

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Yes, it is what He said:

John 15:2 Every branch *in me* that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

A person who unsaved is never "in Christ"

aiki said:

This passage, then, is not solid ground upon which to build the idea that one can be saved and lost.

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Actually, it is. Do you see that the Lord is giving two outcomes for the same servant?:

Luke 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Luke 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luke 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.

The servant who will be set over all of the Lords possession is the one who is serving Him when He returns.

Luke 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,

but if that very same servant who would have been set over the Lords possessions is not serving Him:

Luke 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.

that very same servant will be punished with the unbelievers.

Another point is, unbelievers are not referred to as servants, especially not those serving in the Lords house. When the Lord is talking about servants He is talking about Christians.

aiki said:

Were any of the disciples at this point born-again believers? No. Christ had not yet died on the cross and so the "second birth" was not yet possible for the disciples. Christ was, among other things, urging his disciples as those yet to be saved to stay the course as followers of their Saviour. Do those who are genuinely saved need to be afraid of He who can cast both body and soul into hell?

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Luke 7:50 And he said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."

Luke 19:9 And Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham.

Was Jesus exaggerating to these people when He told them they were saved? This is beside the point though because you have not rightly divided the word of truth. The NT scriptures teach the fear of the Lord:

Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was being built up. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it multiplied.

2 Corinthians 5:11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

1 Peter 2:17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Revelation 14:7 And he said with a loud voice, "Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water."

Jesus' teaching on the true vine connected with Isaiah and God's wayward vineyard - Jesus was the One who was faithful in a way Israel never achieved. It was a warning that being Jewish did not guarantee favour with God. Similarly today we need more than the label 'Christian'; genuine fruit must be seen.

Much the same with the faithful servant parable.

John
NZ

Yes, it is what He said:

John 15:2 Every branch *in me* that does not bear fruit he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

A person who unsaved is never "in Christ"

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John 15:2 says that Christ will "take away" those in him who do not bear fruit, but the verse I was referring to says something different:

John 15:6
6If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

In light of other things the Word of God says about the security of the believer's salvation (Jn. 6:37-40; 10:28, 29; Heb. 13:5; Ro. 8:29; 8:35-39; Phil. 1:3-6), I don't think it is correct to interpret "takes away" to mean "cast into hell." Certainly, if Christ had meant this he could have used the sort of language he does only a few verses later when he describes the fate of those who do not abide in him.

You are quite right, though, that an unsaved person was never in Christ. In fact, this was sort of my point.

Another point is, unbelievers are not referred to as servants, especially not those serving in the Lords house. When the Lord is talking about servants He is talking about Christians.

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THen you need to explain this verse from the same parable:

Luke 12:48

48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

How could a servant not know his master's will? And if he was not a servant, why, then, would he be beaten? Obviously, the parable is not as directly or exclusively parallel to the Saviour and the saved as you seem to think. Verse 48 speaks of an ignorant servant, which, it seems to me, is not referring to a poorly-informed believer, but to one who is totally ignorant of the Gospel - in other words, the unsaved. But this confounds the idea that the "servants" in the parable are strictly believers. Instead, it seems more appropriate to understand that the servants represent all of humanity - saved and unsaved - and to whom the Master is either Lord and Saviour or Creator. In either case there is a relationship of inferior to superior and corresponding accountability. (Ro. 1:18-20)

This is beside the point though because you have not rightly divided the word of truth. The NT scriptures teach the fear of the Lord:

Acts 9:31 So the church throughout all Judea and Galilee and Samaria had peace and was being built up. And walking in the fear of the Lord and in the comfort of the Holy Spirit, it multiplied.

2 Corinthians 5:11 Therefore, knowing the fear of the Lord, we persuade others. But what we are is known to God, and I hope it is known also to your conscience.

2 Corinthians 7:1 Since we have these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from every defilement of body and spirit, bringing holiness to completion in the fear of God.

1 Peter 2:17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

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In light of the verses I posted which explicitly state that believers have not been given a spirit of fear as children of God but are able to come "boldly unto the throne of grace" and, as joint-heirs with Christ, are able to call their God, "Abba, Father," the fear spoken of in the verses you have posted is not the fear of threat or danger as you seem to think, but that of reverential awe. THe apostle John makes this crystal clear in his first epistle:

1 John 4:17-19
17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.
18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear: because fear has torment. He that fears is not made perfect in love.
19 We love him, because he first loved us.

So long as you fear God in the sense of regarding Him as a threat or as something dangerous, you cannot properly love Him. And there is nothing God desires more from us than our love. In fact, our love for God is the engine driving our obedience to Him and the spiritual disciplines required for walking with Him. Without this as the base motive for our walk with God, unsullied by fear, we cannot please God. (1Cor. 13)


Selah.

aiki said:

John 15:2 says that Christ will "take away" those in him who do not bear fruit, but the verse I was referring to says something different:

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

In light of other things the Word of God says about the security of the believer's salvation (Jn. 6:37-40; 10:28, 29; Heb. 13:5; Ro. 8:29; 8:35-39; Phil. 1:3-6), I don't think it is correct to interpret "takes away" to mean "cast into hell." Certainly, if Christ had meant this he could have used the sort of language he does only a few verses later when he describes the fate of those who do not abide in him.

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They're saying exactly the same thing. He is talking to His disciples when He says "you are the branches"; ie, branches are Christians. A branch that does not abide is cast out and withered. It's exactly the same meaning as being "taken away". What do you think takes away means? The NIV renders it this way:

John 15:2

He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful.

If you want to talk about any of those scriptures we can discuss them further but they do not individually or collectively constitute definitive proof of the OSAS doctrine. I could also give you a list of scriptures which demonstrate the very opposite of what you seem to think they mean.

aiki said:

THen you need to explain this verse from the same parable:

Luke 12:48

48 But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

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The scripture says 'My people are destroyed from a lack of knowledge.' Do all Christians know the Lords will? Sadly, many are very much ignorant of it. As to why the servant would be beaten, we see that we will all stand in front of the judgment seat of Christ:

2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

The servants obviously do represent Christians, and you have not addressed my point that the Lord was referring to the same servant in verses 43-45. An unbeliever is not a servant of the Lord in any sense of the word what-so-ever and there is no precedent for calling them one. Indeed, the unbeliever is incapable of serving the Lord at all, being spiritually dead and carnally minded. Without faith it is impossible to please God.

aiki said:

the fear spoken of in the verses you have posted is not the fear of threat or danger as you seem to think, but that of reverential awe.

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This is what I posted in my original post:

"Even this fear is an awe and a reverence and not a terror."

PaladinValer said:

Salvation can be "lost"; that's why things like apostasy and heresy exist, and why people choose to not struggle with sins even after entering into Christ.

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The reason apostasy and heresy exist is that people sometimes make a profession of faith when they are not actually saved. Those who do this aren't deliberately lying; at one time they believe they really are Christians because they have a wrong idea of how you become a Christian in the first place. Here is what John says about apostates:

"Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." Those are St. Paul's words. They wouldn't make sense if salvation were an automatic guarantee. It is a gift, but a gift that must be accepted and run the course with. When we choose to reject it, it becomes no longer ours' to claim.

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Paul said "Work out your salvation", not "Work for your salvation." This statement is found in Philippians 2:12. Look at what he said in the first chapter of Philippians:It is the Holy Spirit who begins the work in us by enabling us to believe the gospel and be saved in the first place and he will continue to work in us until the work is finished. Paul expressed the truth this way in another letter:We are to do good works because we are saved, not in order to achieve or keep our salvation.

Salvation from God’s point of view | clydeherrin

theophilus40 said:

The reason apostasy and heresy exist is that people sometimes make a profession of faith when they are not actually saved. Those who do this aren't deliberately lying; at one time they believe they really are Christians because they have a wrong idea of how you become a Christian in the first place. Here is what John says about apostates:

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
(1 John 2:19 ESV)
​

Paul said "Work out your salvation", not "Work for your salvation." This statement is found in Philippians 2:12. Look at what he said in the first chapter of Philippians:

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
(Philippians 1:6 ESV)
​

It is the Holy Spirit who begins the work in us by enabling us to believe the gospel and be saved in the first place and he will continue to work in us until the work is finished. Paul expressed the truth this way in another letter:

For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
(Ephesians 2:8-10 ESV)
​

We are to do good works because we are saved, not in order to achieve or keep our salvation.

Salvation from God’s point of view | clydeherrin

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This is not a debating thread. Please review the specific rules for the Christian Advice subforum.

I only give historic, orthodox, classic orthodox theology in my replies. You may offer whichever you wish, but relying to what I say doesn't help the OP one bit.

They're saying exactly the same thing.

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I'm sorry, but they are not.

John 15:2
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

He is talking to His disciples when He says "you are the branches"; ie, branches are Christians.

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If one puts the passage from which the above verses are taken alongside Ezekiel 15, which seems to be a parallel passage in many respects to what Christ is saying to his disciples in John 15, the emphasis of both passages becomes more clear: usefulness. Christ is not teaching that people can be saved and lost but rather the profound uselessness of one who is not abiding in him. This is emphasized particularly when Jesus says to his disciples in John 15, "For without me you can do nothing." (vs. 5) The burning of the withered branches, then, is not symbolic of the punishment of hell but of the utter uselessness of vine branches. Ezekiel explains,

Ezekiel 15:2-5
2 "Son of man, how is the wood of the vine better than any other wood, the vine branch which is among the trees of the forest?
3 Is wood taken from it to make any object? Or can men make a peg from it to hang any vessel on?
4 Instead, it is thrown into the fire for fuel; the fire devours both ends of it, and its middle is burned. Is it useful for any work?
5 Indeed, when it was whole, no object could be made from it. How much less will it be useful for any work when the fire has devoured it, and it is burned?

The words of Jesus then, in the first six verses of John 15 are not good fodder for the Saved-And-Lost doctrine. Please understand that I am not proposing that they are good ground for teaching OSAS. I am just pointing out that using them to underpin the idea that a believer can be saved and lost doesn't really work.

The scripture says 'My people are destroyed from a lack of knowledge.' Do all Christians know the Lords will? Sadly, many are very much ignorant of it.

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Well, first off, your quotation from Hosea 4 is in reference to the Israelites, not Christian believers. It is stretching the verse unduly to suggest it also applies to New Testament believers. In any case, how can one become a child of God while ignorant of His will? The Gospel proclaims God's will to us. And without a knowledge of the Gospel one cannot become a child of God. To speak of a genuinely born-again child of God who does not know, at least in a basic, general way, the will of God is, then, to speak of an impossibility. So, the idea that Christ is speaking of merely an ignorant believer in verse 48 of Luke 12 seems quite mistaken. It is only an unbeliever who is truly ignorant of the Master's will.

The servants obviously do represent Christians, and you have not addressed my point that the Lord was referring to the same servant in verses 43-45.

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Actually, Matthew offers an important clarification to this parable. He adds,

Matthew 24:50-51
50 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of,
51 and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites...

What is a hypocrite? One who pretends to be something he is not. The wicked servant is such a person. He pretends to the role of servant when in his heart he is no such thing. And this is why he is "appointed his portion with the unbelievers." As I said, if you consider carefully what is written, it becomes quite clear that this passage is not teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine.

the fear spoken of in the verses you have posted is not the fear of threat or danger as you seem to think, but that of reverential awe. This is what I posted in my original post:

"Even this fear is an awe and a reverence and not a terror."

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Hey, then we finally agree on something!

Selah.

.

But it was the Jews that Jesus was referring to. Christian did not exist then.

This passage would be very familiar to His audience:
Isa 5:1-7 I will sing for the one I love a song about his vineyard:My loved one had a vineyard on a fertile hillside. He dug it up and cleared it of stones and planted it with the choicest vines.He built a watchtower in it and cut out a winepress as well.Then he looked for a crop of good grapes,but it yielded only bad fruit.

"Now you dwellers in Jerusalem and men of Judah,judge between me and my vineyard. What more could have been done for my vineyard than I have done for it?When I looked for good grapes,why did it yield only bad? Now I will tell you what I am going to do to my vineyard:I will take away its hedge,and it will be destroyed;I will break down its wall,and it will be trampled. I will make it a wasteland,neither pruned nor cultivated,and briers and thorns will grow there.I will command the clouds not to rain on it."

The vineyard of the Lord Almighty is the house of Israel,and the men of Judah are the garden of his delight. And he looked for justice, but saw bloodshed;for righteousness, but heard cries of distress. NIV

Its' all about rejecting Jesus.

John
NZ

aiki said:

I'm sorry, but they are not.

John 15:2
2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

John 15:6
If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

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Look at what Jesus says to the disciples:

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

Jesus tells the disciples to abide in Him, even though they are already in Him. We are in Christ when we are saved; that is the point. They're already saved; Jesus declares them to be clean in verse 3. It is one thing to be in Christ because of salvation, it is another to abide in Him as Jesus told His disciples. Therefore, John 15:6 is saying the same thing..one who is not abiding in Him will be cast out as a branch, and withered. They couldn't be a branch unless they were a Christian and they wouldn't wither unless they already had life.

aiki said:

The words of Jesus then, in the first six verses of John 15 are not good fodder for the Saved-And-Lost doctrine. Please understand that I am not proposing that they are good ground for teaching OSAS. I am just pointing out that using them to underpin the idea that a believer can be saved and lost doesn't really work.

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You need to read a little further down Ezekiel 15:

Ezekiel 15:6 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Like the wood of the vine among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so have I given up the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 15:7 And I will set my face against them. Though they escape from the fire, the fire shall yet consume them, and you will know that I am the LORD, when I set my face against them.
Ezekiel 15:8 And I will make the land desolate, because they have acted faithlessly, declares the Lord GOD."

Do you not see that this chapter supports my interpretation entirely? In verses 1 through 5 the Lord is telling the Jews that without fruit born from their relationship with Him, they had no use. That the wood of the vine branches isn't useful for anything on its own, and how much less when they are burned to a cinder. In verses 6-8 He tells them that because of their backsliding they will be cast out and burned up. That's exactly what Jesus says in John 15.

aiki said:

Well, first off, your quotation from Hosea 4 is in reference to the Israelites, not Christian believers. It is stretching the verse unduly to suggest it also applies to New Testament believers. In any case, how can one become a child of God while ignorant of His will? The Gospel proclaims God's will to us. And without a knowledge of the Gospel one cannot become a child of God. To speak of a genuinely born-again child of God who does not know, at least in a basic, general way, the will of God is, then, to speak of an impossibility. So, the idea that Christ is speaking of merely an ignorant believer in verse 48 of Luke 12 seems quite mistaken. It is only an unbeliever who is truly ignorant of the Master's will.

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Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Revelation 3:15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!
Revelation 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

Much backsliding and ignorance of Christians is detailed in the epistles and in the rest of the Lords letters, so according to scripture it is entirely possible for Christians to be ignorant of the Lords will. I talk to Christians all the time who do not know His will. This is why Paul lamented that he still had to feed some with milk.

aiki said:

What is a hypocrite? One who pretends to be something he is not. The wicked servant is such a person. He pretends to the role of servant when in his heart he is no such thing. And this is why he is "appointed his portion with the unbelievers." As I said, if you consider carefully what is written, it becomes quite clear that this passage is not teaching a saved-and-lost doctrine.

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If he always was a hypocrite he wouldn't need to be appointed a place with the other hypocrites, because he would already be going there in the first place. Why would there be a change in status? A lost sinner is always going to be a lost sinner. What the text says is that he was stripped of his status as a servant and booted out of the kingdom and placed with the unbelievers. If he was never saved he wouldn't be serving in the masters house in the first place. Also note that Jesus called believers hypocrites in Luke 6:42

How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.

aiki said:

Hey, then we finally agree on something!

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I'm sure we agree on many things brother. God bless.

Look at what Jesus says to the disciples:

John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me.

Jesus tells the disciples to abide in Him, even though they are already in Him.

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Well, I just don't see it that way, I'm afraid. The disciples could not have been "in Christ" the way post-Calvary believers are. It was only by the shed blood of Christ that being "in Christ" was made possible; and that hadn't happened at the time Jesus was speaking of the vine and branches. So, it seems to me here that Christ is teaching the disciples a soon-to-be truth, which is that they must - as all other believers must - come to abide in the Vine, who is Christ.

We are in Christ when we are saved; that is the point. They're already saved; Jesus declares them to be clean in verse 3.

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I agree we are in Christ when we are saved. You'll have to explain, though, how the disciples can already be saved, in the Gospel sense of the word, before Jesus died on the cross for their sins.

Jesus declares them to be clean by the word which he spoke unto them but I don't think this means they were born-again. From what I understand from Scripture, God's Word generally has a cleansing effect upon the mind of the one who reads or hears it. But this cleansing effect is not tantamount to salvation.

It is one thing to be in Christ because of salvation, it is another to abide in Him as Jesus told His disciples.

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I think the distinction being made may not be between just being saved and living in intimate fellowship with Christ, but between existing as a created being dependent upon the Creator (a branch in the vine) and existing as a born-again child of God who is "in Christ" (a branch abiding in the vine that bears fruit).

Therefore, John 15:6 is saying the same thing..one who is not abiding in Him will be cast out as a branch, and withered.

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This is all predicated on the idea that people were saved before the way of salvation had been made. I am very curious to hear how you think this is possible.

They couldn't be a branch unless they were a Christian

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They could if being a branch simply meant existing by the sustaining power of the Creator who is Jesus, which is the condition for every person, saved or not.

You need to read a little further down Ezekiel 15:

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Oh, I have. All the way to end of the chapter.

Ezekiel 15:6 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: Like the wood of the vine among the trees of the forest, which I have given to the fire for fuel, so have I given up the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Ezekiel 15:7 And I will set my face against them. Though they escape from the fire, the fire shall yet consume them, and you will know that I am the LORD, when I set my face against them.
Ezekiel 15:8 And I will make the land desolate, because they have acted faithlessly, declares the Lord GOD."

Do you not see that this chapter supports my interpretation entirely?

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No, I don't. I explained why to a degree already.

In verses 1 through 5 the Lord is telling the Jews that without fruit born from their relationship with Him, they had no use. That the wood of the vine branches isn't useful for anything on its own, and how much less when they are burned to a cinder.

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Yes, this is more or less what I already pointed out in my last post.

In verses 6-8 He tells them that because of their backsliding they will be cast out and burned up. That's exactly what Jesus says in John 15.

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I'm sorry, but in Ezekiel 15:6-8 the prophet isn't speaking of eternal punishment in hell, nor of the Israelites being disowned by God. In the commentaries I've examined, "fire" simply refers to calamity. In this part of the chapter, then, the parallel to what you are contending for in John 15 doesn't appear to exist.

Revelation 3:14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation.
Revelation 3:15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot!
Revelation 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.
Revelation 3:17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked.

Much backsliding and ignorance of Christians is detailed in the epistles and in the rest of the Lords letters, so according to scripture it is entirely possible for Christians to be ignorant of the Lords will.

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But this isn't what this passage in the Revelation that you've cited is talking about. As a church the Laodiceans knew the will of God, but the affluence in which they existed had blunted their sense of dependence upon Him. Unfortunately, the Laodiceans did not recognize that they had become so blunted. This passage, then, is not speaking to a lack of knowledge concerning the will of God, but of a lack of clarity about the state of one's heart toward God.

I talk to Christians all the time who do not know His will. This is why Paul lamented that he still had to feed some with milk.

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This is rather off the mark concerning my point about the ignorant servant. Some ignorance concerning the will of God, the deeper truths of His Word, is not the same as having no knowledge at all of God's will, which is what is said of the ignorant servant in Luke 12:48. As I pointed out, even a brand-new believer who has heard the Gospel has, in hearing it, received at least a basic, general knowledge of God's will.

If he always was a hypocrite he wouldn't need to be appointed a place with the other hypocrites, because he would already be going there in the first place. Why would there be a change in status?

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I don't see in the parable that a change of status has occurred or has even been implied as having occurred.

What the text says is that he was stripped of his status as a servant and booted out of the kingdom and placed with the unbelievers.

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I'm afraid you're guilty of some eisegesis here.

If he was never saved he wouldn't be serving in the masters house in the first place.

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There are many "tares among the wheat" who serve God right along with genuine believers. They just do so from corrupt motives, oblivious often to their "tare" status.

Also note that Jesus called believers hypocrites in Luke 6:42

How can you say to your brother, 'Brother, let me take out the speck that is in your eye,' when you yourself do not see the log that is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother's eye.

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Hmmm...I'm not so sure that Jesus is speaking solely to believers in this passage. Again, Christian believers did not exist yet at the time Jesus spoke these words. And the immediate context of the passage indicates that Jesus was speaking before a large audience (Lu. 6:19; 7:1) His words concerning judging another could easily apply to the crowd as to his disciples, and I expect that this was exactly what Christ intended his words to do. I don't think, therefore, that this passage is good grounds for what you're suggesting.

Hey, then we finally agree on something! I'm sure we agree on many things brother. God bless.

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I expect you are quite right. God bless you, too.

Selah.

aiki said:

Well, I just don't see it that way, I'm afraid.

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I feel like the Lord is leading me to disengage from this debate so I am going to bow out. God bless you

hopelessjen

Read the book of Galatians and percieve what was happening

hopelessjen

You have to break away from adding up words and just defining words and caluclating the meaning of words. You have to see beyond this and percieve the conflicts they imply and reveal.

If it was impossible to go back to being outside of Christ the book of Galatians would not have been written

The people at galatia were going back to the law. Paul said they started out so well... but if they went back to trusting in circumcision they would be fallen from grace and Jesus would no longer benefit them.

You may say WELL DUH ITS THE LAW but the point is Paul felt their salvation was being undone.

If you choose to abandon Jesus you can be lost again

that being said... it does require that you ABANDON him.

also

Look at Jude 1.12

People who were still alive, eating at these feasts but were " twice dead, plucked up by the roots "

What peril could that imply for someone who still lives and breathes on earth?

HopelessJen said:

I'm really concerned and hoping someone can help me with this issue. I've been reading many articles lately and am strongly convinced that we can lose our salvation. I know it says no one can snatch us out of God's hands once we are saved, but the way I now understand it, this means that we cannot be snatched out of his hands by outside sources. In other words, we CAN fall away from his grace--through continuing in sin knowingly, which is sinning against the Holy Spirit.

Here is what I posted in another forum but didn't receive a response to. Please let me know your thoughts:

It appears to me that we are only saved by grace through faith in Christ and not through works of our own flesh. However, once we are saved and receive the Holy Spirit, we then live out our faith through works. In fact, it's the works that demonstrate our faith. So it's not that works save us--they don't initially save us (God does when we commit to his son and lifestyle)---it's that if we really truly decide to follow Christ, we will, from that point on, do our best to live for him without willfully practicing sin.
Sadly, I feel like many of are doomed. I have committed sins, knowing that they were wrong (like over-eating--lack of moderation-- or gossiping, etc.). I am very sorrowful that I have done these things, fully knowing they were wrong. But I wish I could change my ways. I am not happy about these things in the least.
Anyway, I don't know to what point someone loses their salvation, but it sounds like people can. Jesus said "be ye perfect just as your father in Heaven is perfect." This is impossible to do before we are saved, but it is expected after we receive Christ. Well at least it is expected that we strive to be perfect and work out our salvation with fear and trembling. If we aren't trying hard to be as perfect as Christ, it would seem we aren't saved.
The thing I'm confused about is what if we WANT to be more eager to please God? I am eager to please God, but sometimes in the moment I give in to temptation, which I should not be doing. Does this mean I am not saved and still have a chance to be saved or that I was saved and messed up and now don't belong to Christ anymore? Or is there still time on this earth to repent and make things right with God?
Is there still hope for me and/or others like me? I haven't killed anyone, but I've been angry in my heart even after I've been a Christian and Jesus said that even if you are angry with someone, it's as if you've killed them. I'm not knowingly holding a grudge anymore, but even so, I have done things like that. I am just wondering how many of us have done what most people think to be "little sins" and maybe we have lost our salvation because, nevertheless, those so-called little sins are still disobeying God and his Holy Spirit. Isn't that the sin that can't be forgiven? Denying the Holy Spirit, as in we do something we know to be wrong? I know it is wrong to eat too much but I have a binge eating problem and do it almost every day. I should be turning down extra food, but I don't, for example.

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There's no sin that can't be forgiven if you repent. What you must understand is your flesh nature wars against the Spirit so you can't always do the things God wants. But God's grace extends not just at the moment we are saved but for the rest of our life so there is always time to repent because God is patient, and merciful. The Bible says we have to identify with Jesus who was crucified - that is his own body that took on our sins, was put to death, and so it is with ours when we reckon ourselves dead to sin. We then start hating the sin that we once enjoyed - so ask Jesus to take it away from us and give us the will to obey his Word. Sometimes this problem is habitual and hard to be free of but you can ask for wisdom on how to repent and be free of it. You are in a spiritual war zone and the devil will try to get you to doubt your salvation by tempting you you need to resist. It will get easier as you keep close to Jesus.

Being aware we are sinners does not mean we losing salvation. The point is the Holy Spirit working in us to bring us to perfection by pointing out we are sinning but also making us aware we cannot keep from sinning without trusting in Jesus. Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous. If we already thought we were perfect and righteous, we wouldn't need Him would we. Our salvation depends on what we believe about Jesus in our hearts and what he did for us, and our relationship with Him not our performance.

Denying the Holy Spirit is insulting Him and not allowing Him to work in your life, as well as attributing evil to his works. That is different from being aware we are sinning and giving in to temptation. When we sin, we soon learn the consequences of those sins don't we? It doesn't mean we lose salvation, but it makes us aware of how much it cost Jesus to save us and we need to learn to get victory over sin. So maybe just what you have is lack of knowledge, as far as I know, Jesus said to forgive a brother 70 times 7, thats 490 times...to my mind maybe there IS a limit to grace and God will get frustrated if there's just complete disregard in that area but I think if you sin that much it's likely you aren't asking Him for help which He will give if you fear Him and care about your relationship with Him.

In terms of keeping count 490 times sounds an awful lot and if God's keeping count of my sin I sure hope I'm not going to grieve him that much.

This is my understanding of scripture.

We cannot "lose" our salvation. We cannot be snatched out of the Father's hand. Any sin we commit can be forgiven, and will be, if we just ask.

However, we can walk away. We can tell God that we don't want it any more. I don't believe we can accidentally walk away or drift away. But we can deliberately walk away from it.

Romans 11 speaks of believers - Gentile believers - being grafted into the tree of God's people, Israel. It talks about the Israelites who have been trimmed and broken off so that the Gentiles could be grafted in. At this point, we Gentiles are believers, salvation intact.

Then, in verse 20 - 21, Paul states, "Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you, either."

God will not spare even grafted in branches, should we choose to walk away from Him.

Israel had all the knowledge of the coming of the Messiah. Yet they refused to acknowledge Jesus when He came. In reading the Gospels, I have come to the conclusion that some, if not most, of the Sanhedrin, knew or had suspicion that Jesus was the Christ. But they would not risk their place in the Roman society, or the riches, by saying so. They chose the world over God. When we walk away from God after we have already accepted His salvation, we are doing the same thing.

When God adopts one of us into His family, it is entirely His doing. He draws us to Himself, illuminates our understanding sufficiently to respond positively to the grace and forgiveness He offers in His Son, and persuades us of the necessity of yielding ourselves in repentance to Him. Our salvation is all of God. In light of this, it appears that we do not have the liberty, nor the capacity, to undo what God has done in saving us. He adopted us; we did not adopt Him. Our inclusion into God's family is by God's initiative, not our own.

How, then, can we think we have the power to undo what God has done? We may wish to walk away, but God never does. He loved us and worked to save us when we were "enemies toward Him in our minds by wicked works," "dead in trespasses and sins," and "children of disobedience." When God embarked upon the course that would eventually bring us to salvation, He did not ask our permission before He began to do so; for if He had, we would have told Him, "No." And God does not rest our continued relationship to Him upon our desire to have it continue. Just as God took the initiative in bringing us into His family very much against our initial sinful inclinations, He takes the initiative in maintaining our status as "joint-heirs with Christ" even when we may feel inclined to divorce ourselves from Him. Our unfaithfulness toward God does not force God to be unfaithful toward us. He will uphold His adoption of us even when we seek to abandon it.

Hebrews 13:5
5...For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

We see a wonderful picture of God's attitude toward His children when they forsake Him in the parable of the Prodigal Son. While the fellowship between father and son was broken by the rebellious sin of the son, the relationship of the son to the father was never dissolved. The father waited in anxious hope of the return of his wicked son. Never did he move to abandon his son. And when the Prodigal returned, it was to the glad embrace of a loving father.


Selah.