didache

we can never know, but my take on Apostle-ship is that Matthias was mans choice by lot, Paul was God's by the anointing and sending. All the Apostles were sent by Christ not by disciples.

The Didache doesn't say which 12, and neither do its first two derivative works: Apostolic Constitutions and Didascalia Apostolorum. However, it's next derivative: Apostolic Constitutions assigns a different chapter to each of the apostles, and includes both Matthias and Paul.

cyberlizard said:

OK so it is not on everyone's reading list, but I thought about it yesterday and its title, the lords teaching according to the 12 apostles' got me wondering....

did the author of the didache have the 11 in mind PLUS Paul

or

did he have the 11 in mind PLUS Matthias.

any takers?


Steve

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from the sign of Jonas . the 12 are like the guys in the boat .

Paul is like Jonah who got spat out in the land of the gentiles .

so i'd say Didache was most likely speaking of Matthias .

Paul was never counted among the Twelve. St. Matthias replaced Judas Iscariot.

Though I'd wager that "The Teaching of the Twelve" isn't really about an explicit enumeration of the twelve apostles, so much as it is set forth as the authoritative Apostolic teaching. "The Twelve" coming to mean and be descriptive of the Apostolic whole. It is presented as a teaching manual for the Church, having its basis in the teaching in Christ passed onto the Apostles and disseminated from them to the churches.

-CryptoLutheran

Why is Judas taken out of the 12?

QueSi said:

Why is Judas taken out of the 12?

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After betraying Jesus he committed suicide . the prophetic fulfillment after Joshua or Yeshua and as we call him in english Jesus needed 12 Apostles to represent the 12 tribes in the spiritual fulfillment .

QueSi said:

Why is Judas taken out of the 12?

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He betrayed Christ, and out of guilt hanged himself. Thus even in the most literal sense, there were only 11 until Matthias was selected to take Judas' place.

-CryptoLutheran

ViaCrucis said:

He betrayed Christ, and out of guilt hanged himself. Thus even in the most literal sense, there were only 11 until Matthias was selected to take Judas' place.

-CryptoLutheran

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Ah, I looked at it that he was following instructions put forth by Jesus.

DId Yeshua ever choose Judas? Or did he join for political reasons?

visionary said:

DId Yeshua ever choose Judas? Or did he join for political reasons?

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i recall Jesus said he chose all of them .. and in the next breath said but one of you is a devil .

Michael Collum said:

from the sign of Jonas . the 12 are like the guys in the boat .

Paul is like Jonah who got spat out in the land of the gentiles .

so i'd say Didache was most likely speaking of Matthias .

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Whoa!
I also had that view and in fact, created a thread on it sometime back.

[might be time to "vomit" it up again ]

http://www.christianforums.com/t6739253-2/#post42686286
Jonah, Jesus and Paul

Jonah 3:1 And a word of YHWH is becoming unto Jonah, a second, to say,
2 `Rise! go! to Niyn@veh, the great city, and call to her the call which I am speaking to thee;'

Matt 12:41 `Men, Ninevites shall be resurrecting/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this, and they shall be condemning it/her,
that they repent/reform into the proclamation of Jonah and Lo! more of Jonah here. [Luke 11:30, 32]

Acts 9:15 Said yet toward him, the Lord , `Be you going!, that a vessel of choice is to Me this one, of the to bear the Name of Me in sight of nations and kings--sons besides of Israel;

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Classic Movie Trailer Orca HQ - YouTube

Michael Collum said:

i recall Jesus said he chose all of them .. and in the next breath said but one of you is a devil .

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Take a look when they were called... and find where Judas was... It is not like Peter, matthew, etc..

cyberlizard said:

OK so it is not on everyone's reading list, but I thought about it yesterday and its title, the lords teaching according to the 12 apostles' got me wondering....

did the author of the didache have the 11 in mind PLUS Paul

or

did he have the 11 in mind PLUS Matthias.

any takers?


Steve

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The 11 + Matthias.

I'll agree with ViaCrucis and More Coffee.

I'll also add that there were at least 83 Apostles: The 12, The 70, and Paul. Paul was an Apostle, but he was not part of The 12, just as The 70 were not part of The 12.

knee-v said:

I'll agree with ViaCrucis and More Coffee.

I'll also add that there were at least 83 Apostles: The 12, The 70, and Paul. Paul was an Apostle, but he was not part of The 12, just as The 70 were not part of The 12.

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I agree also.

QueSi said:

Ah, I looked at it that he was following instructions put forth by Jesus.

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Jesus didn't instruct Judas, Judas acted of his own accord and according to his own interests.

Judas played a role, yes. In the same way that some of the Jewish authorities as well as Pilate and the Roman authorities played their role--but that doesn't make their actions good, just, or right. When Joseph's brothers sold him into slavery, it played a role in Joseph's ultimate destiny, but we see how Joseph puts it best, "What you had meant for evil, God has turned to good."

Judas' actions were evil, or at the very best misguided; but what God had purposed and planned came to pass. I pray Judas ultimately found his peace with God, but he--like all of us--must stand and give account for our sins. I ultimately see the story of Judas as one of tragedy, a man who realizing his wrongdoing cuts his life short. If he had waited till Sunday morning, who knows how his story could have played out; after all, Judas wasn't the only one to turn against the Lord, all the disciples fled, and Peter himself denied his Master three times--their guilt, their shame, their mourning was turned into grace and blessedness on that Sunday morning, that's the glory of Easter, and the tragedy of Judas' betrayal, that he wasn't able to be part of that.

-CryptoLutheran

12 is a symbolic number. When you look at the so-called "12 tribes" of Israel, you'll find that there were never the same 12. Depending on which list you look at, you get different tribes. For example, in Num 26 and Joshua, Levi is not one of the 12 tribes, but Manasseh is one tribe and Ephraim is one tribe. In Gen 49, Levi is one of the 12 tribes, but instead of having Manasseh and Ephraim be two tribes, both are one tribe called Joseph. Etc. It isn't the exact number that's important - it's the reality that that number represents. The "12 apostles" represent the new "12 tribes" of Israel. To try to figure out which one of the apostles is Matthias or which one is Paul misses the point.

visionary said:

Take a look when they were called... and find where Judas was... It is not like Peter, matthew, etc..

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proves/changes nothing

Michael Collum said:

proves/changes nothing

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You said "called" and I asked where? ,, you say proves/changes nothing.... ?? You used it as proof...