What does it mean to "believe in Jesus"?

holyrokker

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What does belief in Jesus mean to you?

That he was a man
That he was God
That he was born from a virgin
The lessons that he taught
That he was sinless
That he took everyone's sins on himself upon death
That he rose from the dead

Which one(s) of these and/or what else?
None of these.

All of these are merely intellectual ascent.

Faith is a matter of trust. Belief is Jesus means trusting in His character of righteousness, love and mercy. It's living a life with Jesus as the center of one's purpose.
 
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ancientsoul

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How can someone sin without knowing it? Can you give an example as I am under the impression that it is our intentions that cause sin not actions.

You say no one can be perfect, yet Jesus, who was fully man, was perfect.

sinning without knowledge is called sins of ignorance

Leviticus 4:2 ... Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

Leviticus 5:17 ... And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the Lord; thought he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

wist ... unaware

no one can be perfect BUT Jesus ... i assumed we were talking aside from Jesus ... no one aside from Jesus can be without fault ... we all fall short ...
 
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ancientsoul

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Why do you think it impossible to follow Jesus? If you recall where the seeds fall, some fall on good ground. We need Jesus because he taught us how to not sin...being love God above all and our neighbors as ourselves. Yes he set forth these two rules that if we follow we will stay on the straight and narrow path and not wander from it. Yes most won't make it because the road is difficult to walk down...the world makes it difficult to stay on the path and follow the two,great commandments at all times, but being difficult does not mean impossible. Jesus walked the road and if we follow his lessons and footsteps we can make it to the same destination. If we wander we might end up somewhere else.

i did not say no one could follow Jesus ... i said no one could do it perfectly ... yes, we can make it there ... but not without error and fault ... again, no one can do that perfectly or we wouldn't need Jesus grace ... His Way is the commandments ... we've ALL fell short there ...
 
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QueSi

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xXMikHaelXx said:
So He came down, not as an expression of Love, but to simply give us more rules?

The Jews just weren't doing a good enough job, so He had to come down and show us how it's done?

Are you saying that you walk perfectly, as Jesus had, following the laws in perfect agreement?

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”f
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin. - Romans 3: 10-20

Or, if you want to go more in-depth, we can look at Matthew 19.

Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?

“Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

“All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”

When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.

Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”

Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Now, do you think this man wasn't going to be saved? He was following the commandments and according to Jesus that still didn't make him worthy to enter the kingdom of God.

Then Jesus tells him to sell everything and the man couldn't.

Jesus says that a rich man cannot enter the kingdom of God and the disciples are astonished - and probably a little worried.

Then Jesus soothes them, He tells them, essentially, that there is nothing a person can do to get into the kingdom of God within their own power.

There was only one person that was and could be perfect and that was God Himself - to say differently is to call Him a liar and say that you can do what He did and no longer need a savior.

The Galatians church was beginning to fall to the mindset you carry and this is what Paul said to them.

You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified. I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh? Have you experienced so much in vain—if it really was in vain? So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

Jesus did come down as an expression of love, to show and teach humanity how to live and to erase all of our past sins from before we understand his teachings. He did not give us more rules, but simply summed up all of the rules into the two great commandments.

I can't know if the man was saved as its not my decision. He had certainly led a better life than me so far. The man chose not to sell everything, unlike his disciples who left everything to follow Jesus. Everyone, excluding Jesus, has sinned because as infants and children and even young adults, we don't fully understand his teachings and right from wrong. At some point though, we do understand right from wrong and are instructed to always choose right. Jesus' forgiveness is for the sins that we are not aware of when we are ignorant of them.

Do you think he should have just shouted "forget everything I taught you" from the cross?
 
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QueSi

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ancientsoul said:
sinning without knowledge is called sins of ignorance

Leviticus 4:2 ... Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the Lord concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:

Leviticus 5:17 ... And if a soul sin, and commit any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the Lord; thought he wist it not, yet is he guilty, and shall bear his iniquity.

wist ... unaware

no one can be perfect BUT Jesus ... i assumed we were talking aside from Jesus ... no one aside from Jesus can be without fault ... we all fall short ...

How can I sin without knowing it?
 
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QueSi

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ancientsoul said:
i did not say no one could follow Jesus ... i said no one could do it perfectly ... yes, we can make it there ... but not without error and fault ... again, no one can do that perfectly or we wouldn't need Jesus grace ... His Way is the commandments ... we've ALL fell short there ...

Again, why do you find it impossible to follow Jesus from this point forward? Is it thorns? Did you fall by the wayside?
 
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ancientsoul

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Again, why do you find it impossible to follow Jesus from this point forward? Is it thorns? Did you fall by the wayside?

and again, i do not find it impossible ... but it is NOT possible to do it without error ... i don't find it one bit hard ... but i know i will make mistakes ... i know that because we ALL do ... it's not a discussion to demand someone besubject to misrepresentation of their words ... it's bullying ...

really! planting the thought that i am full of sin or wherever you're going with this ... that's called manipulation ... and nothing more than a cheap shot to appear of superiority ... neither of us is better than the other and you will not find it easy to talk to me in that manner ... all is well in my soul and i don't owe you or anyone else a confession ...
 
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QueSi

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ancientsoul said:
and again, i do not find it impossible ... but it is NOT possible to do it without error ... i don't find it one bit hard ... but i know i will make mistakes ... i know that because we ALL do ... it's not a discussion to demand someone besubject to misrepresentation of their words ... it's bullying ...

really! planting the thought that i am full of sin or wherever you're going with this ... that's called manipulation ... and nothing more than a cheap shot to appear of superiority ... neither of us is better than the other and you will not find it easy to talk to me in that manner ... all is well in my soul and i don't owe you or anyone else a confession ...

I am not trying to plant any such thought, I'm trying to plant the thought that you can live from this point onward without ever sinning again.

It is possible to follow the two great commandments at all times if someone decides to, therefor not sinning anymore
 
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holyrokker

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How can I sin without knowing it?
Do you always know your own intentions? Does everything you do proceed from a pure heart?

It's quite possible for sin to be crouching right outside our door with us being oblivious to it.

That why we are instructed to "exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin."
 
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candle glow

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The example and teachings Jesus gave are expressions of the values of Heaven.

Every system in the world has some kind of standards or expectations that one must follow in order to be a part of that system. Mechanics need to fix cars in order to be mechanics.

Christians need to practice the values of Heaven in order to be Christians. That's why Jesus put so much emphasis on the importance of his teachings. He said that his teachings will judge us.

If we've tried our best to follow his teachings then we will be judged as part of his system. If we've not tried to follow his teachings, then we will be judged as part of some OTHER system.

God's grace is there for times when we fall short in our attempts to express the values of Heaven. We can't "fall short" of that goal if we don't even bother to start trying.
 
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Luke1433

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Candle wrote: "God's grace is there for times when we fall short in our attempts to express the values of Heaven. We can't "fall short" of that goal if we don't even bother to start trying."

Great quote! The false grace teaching almost makes it a RULE that you must NOT try to obey Jesus, whereas just trying to obey Jesus is evidence of faith in him, who he is, and what he taught.
 
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Luke1433

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If we could get back to the OP, that would be good. There are lots of threads elsewhere to debate whether or not sinless perfection is possible, etc.

It's a good question (the title for this thread), because there seem to be so many different understandings of the word "believe". Sorry, I have not read the first five pages of this thread, but I'm assuming there have been discussions about believing certain doctrines ABOUT Jesus, the devils believing, people believing a lot of other things, and, hopefully, a little something about really believing the things that Jesus said.

That last point seems to be the one that gets overlooked more and more. People feel they are saved by believing a formula that never came from Jesus (e.g. saying a little prayer and asking him into your heart), often without a thought in the world about checking with the supposed object of that Prayer (Jesus himself) to see if he told us to do it that way.

I'm not against people saying little prayers, getting baptised, joining churches, etc. but I think the Sermon on the Mount says that anyone who hears what Jesus said in that Sermon and then fails to obey him, is like a foolish man building his life/church/faith on sand.

Let's get back to faith in the things that Jesus said, like the early Christians had... before assembly line conversions became the norm.
 
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hmw

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Let's get back to faith in the things that Jesus said, like the early Christians had... before assembly line conversions became the norm.

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" did not have an assembly line conversion. He believed on Jesus and was justified without any deeds of the law.
 
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candle glow

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The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" did not have an assembly line conversion. He believed on Jesus and was justified without any deeds of the law.

I suppose it will be a bit different for everyone, hey? Jesus did say there would be some big surprises!

We may find that the people we'd most expect to make it end up not making it and the people we most expect not to make it, the opposite.
 
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Luke1433

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"The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" did not have an assembly line conversion. He believed on Jesus and was justified without any deeds of the law."

It's funny how often the thief on the cross comes up as justification for not trying to obey Jesus. Do you think if he had been allowed to live a bit longer he would NOT have done like the other disciples, and tried to obey Jesus?

It's also interesting that the thief on the cross did not go to church, read the scriptures, or make any other change in terms of the kind of behaviour that got him on the cross in the first place. Yet these ARE the kind of works that get promoted after most people doe the little prayer thing.

If you're saying, however, that it just takes faith , then I'm in full agreement. I believe the thief on the cross had real faith, and I also believe that it was his faith that saved him (well, really, God's grace, although God showed him grace because he had real faith). Works don't save us, but if we have faith, then given the opportunity, we will show it by the way we live/act/work. If we're not changing in accord with the teachings of Jesus, then it's a pretty safe bet that we don't have faith in JESUS, even though we may have faith in a magical prayer.

I would certainly not compare the thief on the cross with a crowd of people reciting a prayer one line at a time under guidance from a preacher (the assembly line model that I was referring to).
 
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hmw

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"The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" did not have an assembly line conversion. He believed on Jesus and was justified without any deeds of the law."

It's funny how often the thief on the cross comes up as justification for not trying to obey Jesus. Do you think if he had been allowed to live a bit longer he would NOT have done like the other disciples, and tried to obey Jesus?

It's also interesting that the thief on the cross did not go to church, read the scriptures, or make any other change in terms of the kind of behaviour that got him on the cross in the first place. Yet these ARE the kind of works that get promoted after most people doe the little prayer thing.

If you're saying, however, that it just takes faith , then I'm in full agreement. I believe the thief on the cross had real faith, and I also believe that it was his faith that saved him (well, really, God's grace, although God showed him grace because he had real faith). Works don't save us, but if we have faith, then given the opportunity, we will show it by the way we live/act/work. If we're not changing in accord with the teachings of Jesus, then it's a pretty safe bet that we don't have faith in JESUS, even though we may have faith in a magical prayer.

I would certainly not compare the thief on the cross with a crowd of people reciting a prayer one line at a time under guidance from a preacher (the assembly line model that I was referring to).

I agree that a Christian's behavior will often improve.
But this is not how our righteousness and salvation is determined. Each of us will be at very different stages and rates of growth, so we should never compare ourselves amongst each other.

But we should be wary of those who preach obedience to the extent that they are in fact legalists seeking to be perfected by the flesh. Such are in unbelief as they reject the work of the cross and seek righteousness by works of the law instead.

The thief on the cross is God's example to the world that we're saved by grace, and not works of the law.
 
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