Not sinning does not mean anything; not equivalent to holiness or godliness

hmw · Jul 1, 2013

bottomofsandal said:
hmw,

I wanted to revisit the definition of sanctification to avoid conflation.

By sanctification, we have been set apart by The Lord unto Himself, but we are also advancing in the nuture and admonition of The Lord during our time here on earth. Below I have posted both Strong's and Vine's for reference. We have been declared sanctified, but it is positionally and provisionally and has not yet come to completion. It is in the process of culmination. Yes, it was done once, but it is not yet fully realized.

hagiazō
1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
a) consecrate things to God
b) dedicate people to God
3) to purify
a) to cleanse externally
b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

Sanctification, Sanctify:
"to sanctify," "is used of (a) the gold adorning the Temple and of the gift laid on the altar, Mat 23:17, 19;
(b) food, 1Ti 4:5;
(c) the unbelieving spouse of a believer, 1Cr 7:14;
(d) the ceremonial cleansing of the Israelites, Hbr 9:13;
(e) the Father's Name, Luk 11:2;
(f) the consecration of the Son by the Father, Jhn 10:36;
(g) the Lord Jesus devoting Himself to the redemption of His people, Jhn 17:19;
(h) the setting apart of the believer for God, Act 20:32; cp. Rom 15:16;
(i) the effect on the believer of the Death of Christ, Hbr 10:10, said of God, and Hbr 2:11; 13:12, said of the Lord Jesus;
(j) the separation of the believer from the world in his behavior -- by the Father through the Word, Jhn 17:17, 19;
(k) the believer who turns away from such things as dishonor God and His gospel, 2Ti 2:21;
(l) the acknowledgment of the Lordship of Christ, 1Pe 3:15. "Since every believer is sanctified in Christ Jesus, 1Cr 1:2, cp. Hbr 10:10, a common NT designation of all believers is 'saints,' hagioi, i.e., 'sanctified' or 'holy ones.' Thus sainthood, or sanctification, is not an attainment, it is the state into which God, in grace, calls sinful men, and in which they begin their course as Christians, Col 3:12; Hbr 3:1." *
[* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 113, 114.]

Thanks bottomofsandal.

hmw · Jul 1, 2013

Kemosabe said:
Then you are saying Jesus is instructing the
man to "feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate
with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law."

It is unfortunate that you continue in your fornication with Hagar by following the ministry of condemnation/death (written and engraved in stones) that was done away, 2Cor 3:7.

The thief on the cross who called Jesus "Lord" was saved by grace. There was no obedience to the law included in his salvation.

But under the doctrine you follow those who live on as Christians are not as blessed as those with deathbed salvation. You claim that those that live on as Christians have to also do perfect obedience to the law or else they are condemned and die.

Kemosabe · Jul 1, 2013

hmw: '...obedience to the law...'

hmw: 'you continue in your fornication with Hagar by following the ministry of condemnation/death (written and engraved in stones) that was done away'

"What is written in the law? how readest thou?"

"Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

According to your statement, Jesus is instructing the man to "feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate
with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law."

hmw · Jul 1, 2013

Kemosabe said:
"What is written in the law? how readest thou?"
"Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live."

According to your statement, Jesus is instructing the man to "feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate
with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law."

You quote from Luke 10, but you fail to understand it.

What did Jesus refer to in the law?
Luke 10:27
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Which is consistent with His commandments, as described in 1John 3:22,23.
Believe in Jesus.
Love one another.

Now note the example Jesus gave with the story of the good Samaritan.
Luke 10:36-37
Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.

Christians were saved by grace. God loved us and forgave us. He showed mercy.

Christians likewise show mercy, love/grace towards one another, forgiving one another even 7x70. Hence we do not judge anothers righteousness by whether they perfectly obey the law as we know that one's faith is counted for righteousness, instead, Rom 4:5.

But under the doctrine you follow you remain under the law for righteousness. Under the doctrine you follow we see the same lack of mercy and love as the Pharisees had.

Here's what you fail to understand.

Gal 3:19-25
What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

The doctrine you follow determines righteousness by works of the law. There is no faith under such doctrines. It's only rebellion against God by seeking to be perfected by the flesh through works of the law.
Those who remain following such doctrines are those spoken of in Rev 17:1,2

And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters:
With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

Kemosabe · Jul 2, 2013

hmw: '... the 10 commandments ... we are set free from.'

hmw: 'You quote from Luke 10, but you fail to understand it.'

I understand it just fine.

I also understand;

You absolutely said "we are set free from" "the 10 commandments."

And you also absolutely said anyone keeping the laws "we are set free from" are "ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law)"

I also understand that you just changed it from 10, to 8 commandments "we are set free from."

I also understand that you're making this up as you go.

I also understand that, not only do you twist the scriptures, you also twist your own doctrine.

I also understand Jesus said "What is written in the law" - "this do, and thou shalt live."

So, what is it?

- "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind "
- love "thy neighbour as thyself"

Are we supposed to keep these two commandments?

Yes or No???

Norah63 · Jul 2, 2013

Who ever started that stupid line of "feeling morbid desire"?
That did not help one bit in getting us to understand one another better.
It just sounded like a cheap slam.
Knowing what sin is, and knowing we are capable of avoiding it by maturing in faith, is key.
Is the dis connect between faults and sins? In today's lingo most just call sin a 'mistake'.
When Jesus said, 'on these two hang all the commandments', it let us know that to keep those two are doable. Is there any agreement on that?

Kemosabe · Jul 2, 2013

Norah63 Who ever started that stupid line of "feeling morbid desire"?

According to hmw, anyone trying to keep any of the commandments in the Bible;

They are "ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law), and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ."

Look back in this thread ... or ask hmw for verification.

Norah63: That did not help one bit in getting us to understand one another better.

Unless that's what your doctrine is.

Also, according to hmw, I may be "the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters."

I sure hope not because there would be some gender issues.

Kristen.NewCreation · Jul 2, 2013

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Colleen1 · Jul 2, 2013

bottomofsandal said:
hmw,

I wanted to revisit the definition of sanctification to avoid conflation.

By sanctification, we have been set apart by The Lord unto Himself, but we are also advancing in the nuture and admonition of The Lord during our time here on earth. Below I have posted both Strong's and Vine's for reference. We have been declared sanctified, but it is positionally and provisionally and has not yet come to completion. It is in the process of culmination. Yes, it was done once, but it is not yet fully realized.

hagiazō
1) to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow
2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God
a) consecrate things to God
b) dedicate people to God
3) to purify
a) to cleanse externally
b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin
c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

Sanctification, Sanctify:
"to sanctify," "is used of (a) the gold adorning the Temple and of the gift laid on the altar, Mat 23:17, 19;
(b) food, 1Ti 4:5;
(c) the unbelieving spouse of a believer, 1Cr 7:14;
(d) the ceremonial cleansing of the Israelites, Hbr 9:13;
(e) the Father's Name, Luk 11:2;
(f) the consecration of the Son by the Father, Jhn 10:36;
(g) the Lord Jesus devoting Himself to the redemption of His people, Jhn 17:19;
(h) the setting apart of the believer for God, Act 20:32; cp. Rom 15:16;
(i) the effect on the believer of the Death of Christ, Hbr 10:10, said of God, and Hbr 2:11; 13:12, said of the Lord Jesus;
(j) the separation of the believer from the world in his behavior -- by the Father through the Word, Jhn 17:17, 19;
(k) the believer who turns away from such things as dishonor God and His gospel, 2Ti 2:21;
(l) the acknowledgment of the Lordship of Christ, 1Pe 3:15. "Since every believer is sanctified in Christ Jesus, 1Cr 1:2, cp. Hbr 10:10, a common NT designation of all believers is 'saints,' hagioi, i.e., 'sanctified' or 'holy ones.' Thus sainthood, or sanctification, is not an attainment, it is the state into which God, in grace, calls sinful men, and in which they begin their course as Christians, Col 3:12; Hbr 3:1." *
[* From Notes on Thessalonians, by Hogg and Vine, pp. 113, 114.]

Yes, I find getting back to basics is helpful and to re-examine how we are defining things helps the debate be more effective.

QueSi · Jul 2, 2013

bottomofsandal said:
QueSi,

The passage in John 8 when Jesus tells the woman caught in adultery to sin no more is the passage in question. Jesus did not inform or educate this woman or anyone for that matter HOW to stop sinning. At face value, this seems strange. Why not ? Maybe it cannot be done.

Something critical was overlooked a few verses earlier in this encounter when Jesus made a statement to the crowd who was watching and waiting for the stoning to commence. Do you recall what Jesus said to the crowd ?

He who is WITHOUT sin cast the first stone !!!

Why did no one pick up a stone ???

I honestly don't understand your argument that he didn't instruct her how to not sin. He obviously taught us what to do to not sin, being love God above all and our neighbors as ourselves. If we simply follow those two instructions at all times, then it's impossible to sin. Therefor he did give us instructions on how not to sin. I think that you would be in agreement that Jesus never sinned, so it must be possible as he was fully man and lived as an example of how to live with out falling into sin.

No one threw a stone because they had all sinned before.

hmw · Jul 2, 2013

Norah63 said:
Who ever started that stupid line of "feeling morbid desire"?

Kemosabe gave us that stupid line.

I suspect it's a definition he got from a dictionary defining "lasciviousness".

Unfortunately Kemosabe is preaching righteousness by works of the law. So as he is under the law for righteousness then that makes him a sinner.

hmw · Jul 2, 2013

Kemosabe said:
Also, according to hmw, I may be "the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters."

I sure hope not because there would be some gender issues.

I don't know why you would think that I said that your the "great white harlot". But it was quite an amusing assumption you made anyway

But, I'll remind you again of how God describes those who seek to establish righteousness by works of the law as fornicators.

And as you only want to read scripture in physical terms that is why I quoted Rev 17:1,2 to show you how your physical interpretation of scriptures just do not fit. I had asked you to explain how "fornication" and "drunkenness" and "wine", spoken of in Rev 17, can be the physical things as you claim them to be.

hmw · Jul 2, 2013

Kemosabe said:
I understand it just fine.

I also understand;

You absolutely said "we are set free from" "the 10 commandments."

And you also absolutely said anyone keeping the laws "we are set free from" are "ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law)"

Actually I said we're set free from the law, which includes the 10 commandments. And I quoted many scriptures which confirm this. Interestingly you have failed to counter these many scriptures that all contradict your claim that we should remain under the law for righteousness by works.

Contrary to God's word, and also the rules of this forum, you continue to preach righteousness by works of the law. And as scripture shows (example Rev 17:1,2) your desire to be under the law, is fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law (Gal 4:24).

Kemosabe said:
- "love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind "
- love "thy neighbour as thyself"

Are we supposed to keep these two commandments?

Yes or No???

Yes, Christians do obey them, as described in 1John 3:22,23.

But why do you not obey them?

1Cor 6:15-19
Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
Flee fornication (with Hagar/rightoeusness by works of the law). Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Kemosabe · Jul 2, 2013

hmw: 'Kemosabe gave us that stupid line.'

not true

that came from hmw
top of page
http://www.christianforums.com/t7753963-26/

"Jude 4
ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law), and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ"

hmw · Jul 2, 2013

Kemosabe said:
not true

that came from hmw
top of page
http://www.christianforums.com/t7753963-26/

"Jude 4
ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law), and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ"

Either your forgetful or else dishonest.

Here's the original quote, which you yourself gave.

Kemosabe[/B said:

;63358299]jmw: 'lasciviousness/lust for fornication with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law, Gal 4:24.'

"lasciviousness"

dictionary: feeling morbid sexual desire or a propensity to lewdness;

Click to expand...

Kemosabe · Jul 2, 2013

hmw: Either your forgetful or else dishonest.

I didn't forget and I'm not dishonest.

And the server didn't forget:
top of page:

http://www.christianforums.com/t7753963-26/

I gave the definition for "lasciviousness."

You used that definition to come up with this:

hmw: "Thanks for the dictionary quote. It's just as I understood it.

Jude 4
ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law), and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ"

Kemosabe · Jul 2, 2013

hmw: rules of this forum

It's not against forum rules to say you believe in salvation by faith then keep the teaching of Jesus after that.

It may be against forum rules to continuously call members "sinners" because they don't support your doctrine.

It may be against forum rules to continuously call members "fornicators" because they don't support your doctrine.

Kemosabe · Jul 2, 2013

hmw: The doctrine you follow determines righteousness by works of the law.

This is a false statement.
I've never said anyone is subject to the letter of the law.

I challenge you to show any post where I said Christians are subject to the letter of the law.

Salvation is by faith in Jesus.
After salvation, we're to follow Jesus and do as he says; "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

You continually accuse those trying to do Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" of "feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law."

hmw · Jul 3, 2013

Kemosabe said:
This is a false statement.
I've never said anyone is subject to the letter of the law.

I challenge you to show any post where I said Christians are subject to the letter of the law.

Salvation is by faith in Jesus.
After salvation, we're to follow Jesus and do as he says; "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

Note the following post from Kemosabe.

Kemosabe said:
hmw: But you disagree with God and add works of the law to grace

You disagree with God's definition of 'sin'.
You keep pretending that sin is tied to the law given to Moses.
Gen 13:13 But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly.

God killed people for sinning before Moses.

God killed people for sinning after Moses.

And Jesus warned: "but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Sin is sin, no matter when.

You're more responsible after Salvation:

Seems very clear that you preach a doctrine of works of the law for salvation. And anyone who sins/does not obey the law perfectly (1john 3:4) will be killed for their transgression, according to Kemosabe's doctrine of works.

Kemosabe said:
You continually accuse those trying to do Jesus says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments" of "feeling morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law."

Actually it's God who says this in Jude 4 referring to those who preach righteousness by works of the law (fornicating with Hagar).

Kemosabe · Jul 3, 2013

hmw: Seems very clear that you preach a doctrine of works of the law for salvation.

It's very clear you twist every response and declare it to be "doctrine of works of the law for salvation".

You also say every Christian striving to keep Jesus's commandments, has "morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law."

Jesus said; "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

If we do what Jesus says, you accuse us of having "morbid sexual desire to fornicate with Hagar/righteousness by works of the law."

Jesus was before Moses.

This is Jesus talking to Abraham:
"For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him."

The "the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment" is before Moses.

Salvation is a free gift from God.

Paul says salvation is for "remission of sins that are past."

After salvation we must do as Jesus says "keep my commandments."

Not sinning does not mean anything; not equivalent to holiness or godliness

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