Gay marriage vs. religious freedom

using your logic christian business owners shouldn't do business with ANYONE as we are all sinners...why do you single out homosexuals as the only sinners worth discriminating?

if they dont want to follow the laws of running a business, then dont run a busines.

Sent from my tablet using CF

Conversely, how long would a Christian business owner stay afloat if non-Christians and those of a different sect than that business owner decided they didn't want to do business with the Christian who's in business?

Businesses depend on customers to stay open. This gives the customer community the power in whether or not that business thrives or falls.

What is a discriminating Christian suppose to do? Ask if their customer is gay before offering service? Is there a "G" on the forehead of the gay customer so they can be instantly identified and then refused service?

How about a sign? "We reserve the right to refuse service to..." List all communities, classes, colors, of people warned not to dare enter.

How about another sign instead:
WARNING! This is a Christian owned business. If you are not one of those neighbors Christ compels me to love keep walking!

*sings* What if God were one of us? Any two or one of us?

How do we know he's not?

InSpiritInTruth said:

I believe it is more of an issue in not wanting to contribute to or participate in anothers sinful act, which the Lord also considers an abomination.

If a murderer came into a christians place of business and said "hey can you help me whack this guy by giving me a gun?" I'm sure a Christian based on his convictions and faith would refuse to participate.

Or if a Christian accountant was asked to lie for someone on their taxes I'm sure by their conviction of faith they would also refuse to participate.

Or if a person came to a Christian landlord and said we want a room so we can rape this 12 year old girl, I'm sure the Christian would refuse to cooperate.

I could give more examples how Christians don't want to be part of, or participate in any ungodly, unjust, and immoral acts, in any way shape or form, but I believe you get the drift.

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How does doing business with homosexuals contribute to or participate in their "sinful act"?

InSpiritInTruth said:

Gay marriage incompatible with religious freedom | Fox News

Many Christian business owners who stand up for their religous beliefs and morals will be persecuted and also prosecuted if they do not comply with the will of the state, and the will of the gay community.

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firstly, Fox News is well known for coming with lies to support their agenda of hate, hence I find it disturbing to see Christians trying to back up their position with such a source hence perpetuating Fox News lies.

Before you want to point out the sins of the gay community, you should start first by looking at whether your own conduct is befitting the standard Christ has set out.

as for religious freedom, all I am going to say is I support Christians right to not let gay couples to use Church or Church owned venues for their ceremonies, I support Christians businesses decisions to not offer services for gay weddings.

However, such argument can be a dangerous slippery slopes.

In another word, Christians can literally use the reason " I don't want to condone gay sins" to all kind of discriminations.

For examples, could Christians restaurant owners refuse to serve gay couples in their restaurant?

could Christians who own bus companies refuse to let gays use their bus services?

Sinners have the right to live and breath.

you get my point.

As a Christian, whatever business I have all workers are eligible for employment.
If any business only hired on the basis of the workers being Christian, then the business would fail.
Unbelievers have always outnumbered Christians in the world, and always will on earth.
I don't hire people for their beliefs, but for their ability to work.

However...would I tolerate an open homosexual relationship in the workplace? NO! That would be grounds for termination.
Would I tolerate a "RACIST" casting racial slurs at another worker? NO! Termination.

Now let us compare these two:
A lawsuit would ensue on the first case, but not the second. Why is that?
The LAW FULLY supports minorities, no doubt about it. So for a company to ALLOW a racist worker to continue would be to invite a lawsuit by the minority.
Everyone knows that.

But if a gay tells another male he wished that worker was gay so he could "!@$#@$#", and the offended worker reports it, that gay worker should be fired as well.
But as we shall see, everything gay will be the cause of lawsuits in the near future, and it has already begun.

Christian business owners DO HAVE a right for a "NO-ASK/NO-TELL" policy at work to avoid these issues.
It can save lawsuits on both sides.

ONLY, here is the PROBLEM: Gays have infiltrated every aspect of Government all the way to the Supreme Court.
They are not in FULL control, YET.
So Christians need to examine the possibilities.

Whatever a persons life is, it is their business.
But when their homosexuality brings drama to my workplace, I do not want my business to be a part of their PROPAGANDA campaign.

The ONLY gays I DO HAVE ISSUES with are those who claim they are Christians.
They are apostates and servants of the devil.

Lovely Jar said:

If it's true and you're not simply posting according to Poe's Law, then your hate is the abomination. And God knows this.

1 John 4:20 If a man says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who doesn't love his brother whom he has seen, how can he love God whom he has not seen?

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That verse is in regards to Christians....and gays are not Christians but in name only.

I do agree that to hate is wrong, even hating an unbeliever.
But it is not wrong to have nothing to do with one who claims Christ, yet lives in open sin, and fornication:

"I wrote unto you in an epistle, not to company with fornicators. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then you must need go out of the world. But now I have written unto you, not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner: with such a one, no, not to eat. For what have I to do with them that are without? Do ye not judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among you that wicked person." 1 Cor. 5:11-13

This, to me, is the issue. Separation of Church and State. Churches pay tax money, so the government should not meddle with these affairs.
To do so is to meddle with God and his divine law.

Eagle27 said:

That verse is in regards to Christians....and gays are not Christians but in name only.

I do agree that to hate is wrong, even hating an unbeliever.
But it is not wrong to have nothing to do with one who claims Christ, yet lives in open sin, and fornication:

"I wrote unto you in an epistle, not to company with fornicators. Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then you must need go out of the world. But now I have written unto you, not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner: with such a one, no, not to eat. For what have I to do with them that are without? Do ye not judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among you that wicked person." 1 Cor. 5:11-13

This, to me, is the issue. Separation of Church and State. Churches pay tax money, so the government should not meddle with these affairs.
To do so is to meddle with God and his divine law.

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Jesus never said to hate gays. The 1 Corinthian verse is Paul's letter to the church of Corinth. Not the words of Jesus.

If you are not without sin then you are Christian in name only. But no one is without sin. So sewing discord, advancing hate and being proud of that is sinful and pitiable. And God knows it will not stand before his judgement and reprieve itself with reason when the time comes.

If Jesus hated those who were unbelievers there wouldn't be a Gentile today saved from the ravages of Hell.
Jesus came to save the lost sheep of the House of Israel. But even Jesus sat with Gentiles and let non-Jews receive him. And his disciples, separatists like yourself, asked the master why. He had an answer because he knew the righteousness of God. His disciples did not which is why they took umbrage to his behavior.

If you think you're only called to love Christians, you've got a lot to learn about Jesus.
1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.


Proverbs 6:16-19

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

I do see the wedding coordinator / florist issue as a real one. Most of the religious freedom concerns are paranoia, but that one isn't. In any situation where current laws doesn't permit racial discrimination, I believe it won't permit discrimination against gays.

In some states, there have been negotiations to make sure that the law protects religious freedom. I'm concerned that those provisions may be dominated by churches exerting pressure to avoid things that wouldn't happen anyway (forcing someone to marry gay couples), while they're ignoring situations that definitely will happen. About all I can say is that I think most states are likely to be sympathetic to this kind of situation, at least for a few years.

I note one posting that suggests Catholic bishops need to think carefully whether their goal should be to prevent something that they're not going to be able to prevent (gay marriage), or to concentrate on protections for conscience. I'm concerned that some Christians may be sufficiently anxious to see themselves as persecuted that they're not going to do things that might well protect people in this kind of situation.

Of course from my point of view discrimination against gays and gay marriage actually is sinful, but I'd rather not force people who were brought up to think of it as offensive to violate their conscience. I think a lot of liberals would agree with that if it's presented properly.

Lovely Jar said:

Jesus never said to hate gays. The 1 Corinthian verse is Paul's letter to the church of Corinth. Not the words of Jesus.

If you are not without sin then you are Christian in name only. But no one is without sin. So sewing discord, advancing hate and being proud of that is sinful and pitiable. And God knows it will not stand before his judgement and reprieve itself with reason when the time comes.

If Jesus hated those who were unbelievers there wouldn't be a Gentile today saved from the ravages of Hell.
Jesus came to save the lost sheep of the House of Israel. But even Jesus sat with Gentiles and let non-Jews receive him. And his disciples, separatists like yourself, asked the master why. He had an answer because he knew the righteousness of God. His disciples did not which is why they took umbrage to his behavior.

If you think you're only called to love Christians, you've got a lot to learn about Jesus.
1 John 3:15 Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.


Proverbs 6:16-19

There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

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you must have misread my post. It is wrong to hate ANYONE, let alone gays.
Many a martyr that perished for Christ called upon God to forgive their sins.

But, we are to cast out and have nothing to do with a "brother" that lives as an unbeliever, an open sinner. 1 Cor. 5:11

And the words of Paul are an Authority, for he learned directly of God and Christ, who set him apart.

And I do pity gays and ALL other sinners.
But gays are under the judgement of God already, so there is no arguing with them.
Their eyes will never be opened, short of divine grace.

Read the first chapter to the Romans. Here is a taste of the Word of God against Sodomites:
"...God gave them up to uncleanness, through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their bodies between themselves;
for this cause God gave them up unto vile affections. For even their women did change the natural use to that which is against nature;
And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lusts for one another....
And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind..."

So you see, the door of mercy is shut to some before they depart this life.
When God lets people have the desires of their heart, it is to store up wrath for them.
The door to mercy is forever closed, and they are on a path to eternal judgement.
And that word eternal means just that, They will face the wrath of an angry God forever and ever and ever.
This will occur after the resurrection of the dead, and the Great Day of Judgement.

Eagle27 said:

you must have misread my post. It is wrong to hate ANYONE, let alone gays.
Many a martyr that perished for Christ called upon God to forgive their sins.

But, we are to cast out and have nothing to do with a "brother" that lives as an unbeliever, an open sinner. 1 Cor. 5:11

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As I said, and as Christians know, Corinthians are Paul's letters directing the management of the Church at Corinth. They are not the teachings of Jesus.

I don't know how else to make it any clearer.

Lovely Jar said:

As I said, and as Christians know, Corinthians are Paul's letters directing the management of the Church at Corinth. They are not the teachings of Jesus.

I don't know how else to make it any clearer.

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Paul's words are written as a testimony for all Christians of all ages, as the word of God does not change as humans do.
Whoever taught you that is a liar and a deceiver.

But I see you are a woman, so that explains. So I'll make it simple for you.
If you say that about the writings of the greatest apostle to the Gentiles, surely you will say the words of Christ were only to the Pharisees, when he cast his warnings and condemned them.
"Into whatever city you enter and they receive you not, go your way out into the streets and say, "Even the dust of your city which cleaveth to us, we do wipe off against you..." Luke 10: 10

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matt 10:34

"Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind, both shall fall into the pit." Matt. 15:13

Eagle27 said:

Paul's words are written as a testimony for all Christians of all ages, as the word of God does not change as humans do.
Whoever taught you that is a liar and a deceiver.

But I see you are a woman, so that explains. So I'll make it simple for you.
If you say that about the writings of the greatest apostle to the Gentiles, surely you will say the words of Christ were only to the Pharisees, when he cast his warnings and condemned them.
"Into whatever city you enter and they receive you not, go your way out into the streets and say, "Even the dust of your city which cleaveth to us, we do wipe off against you..." Luke 10: 10

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth; I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matt 10:34

"Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind, both shall fall into the pit." Matt. 15:13

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My sympathies to your mother. May God forgive you your sin of misogynistic hatred of women.

It takes more than Googling copying and pasting scripture to know the words of Jesus.
I rebuke evil and hatemongers who's hate extends to my sex after it's profane ramblings dishonor God's creation.

From sinful minds no good teaching arrives to the righteous ear. There is nothing above my words printed here that was not cast from the pit. I rebuke it and send it to the depths where it belongs.

Lovely Jar said:

My sympathies to your mother. May God forgive you your sin of misogynistic hatred of women.

It takes more than Googling copying and pasting scripture to know the words of Jesus.
I rebuke evil and hatemongers who's hate extends to my sex after it's profane ramblings dishonor God's creation.

From sinful minds no good teaching arrives to the righteous ear. There is nothing above my words printed here that was not cast from the pit. I rebuke it and send it to the depths where it belongs.

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No googling here, woman.

And I do not hate women.

Go talk with your pastor and see what he would say to the words you utter.

The OP is not arguing against selling a car to a homosexual, or serving him in a restaurant, or even helping him purchase real estate. Instead, the OP is arguing against a business owner who identifies himself as a Christian being forced to engage in activity which would indicate that he promotes homosexuality. IOW: If a person has a business, he is to leave his morality at home, and instead promote whatever agenda the government tells him that he must promote.

I saw this coming in 2012. When Michelle Obama gave her speech at the Democratic National Convention, she specifically stated in that speech that homosexuals were to have the right to enter marriage at the altar. This was a clear declaration of war against the code of morality which we find explicitly stated in Scripture.

And this declaration was not lost on the gay community. They realized exactly what the First Lady was saying, as well as the implications which would follow the government's acceptance of it. Christian churches were to abandon their code of morality, and instead obey 'to the letter' the code of amorality being foisted on them by such special-interest groups as Gay Lib. The fact that these groups have approached businesses which are known to be owned by Christians is no coincidence insofar as I am concerned. Those businesses have been specifically targeted because they are know to be Christian in an effort to crush that morality, and then replace it with the wanton desires of those who are the sworn enemies of both Christianity and its code of morality.