Muslims riot to kill atheists and others.

LoAmmi said:

He claims to have been told things by people claiming to be Christian. His claim was not confined to the thread. I believe his claims because they are not extraordinary enough to make me question them as I have seen people behave in such a way.

If you wish to believe he is making it up, that is your choice. All groups have members that are jerks.

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I have no reason to think JGG made up his claims about his distant past, receiving abuse. I have pointed out how his behavior would have had that same result had I engaged in it, and also that it is not connected to this thread in any way. It just doesn't seem reasonable to attach that baggage to everything under the sun, nor to people that have never behaved like that in their lives.

Isaiah spoke of people being in a prison, and while this application is purely figurative - it fits. It is escapable.

Except that everyone here knows exactly what I'm talking about. They see it, the same as I see it, the same as you see it. I don't quite see why you're so shocked and surprised, or how you can deny it.

JGG said:

Except that everyone here knows exactly what I'm talking about. They see it, the same as I see it, the same as you see it. I don't quite see why you're so shocked and surprised, or how you can deny it.

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Again, I invite you to point out any Christian in this thread who is "gleeing over" the problems this thread was started to raise awareness about.

That's just not the reality. If you merely want to interject that its awful that some people do some awful things and /or hold awful opinions of others, I guess that's your right. I would just ask that you label it clearly, and if it doesn't apply to anyone here I would think you would find it fit to come right out and say so. I didn't see you do any of that. Fair enough?

What of the three of you? They're the ones too busy wringing their hands to type anything. But you and I both know they're there.

I think it involves me somewhat..

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Chill out, man.

JGG said:

What of the three of you? They're the ones too busy wringing their hands to type anything. But you and I both know they're there.

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Wait, now you're addressing phantoms? "People" whom you perceive, and are free to assign whatever malice you wish to, who have not expressed an opinion?

Please see my point, that this is "messed up." I don't deny such folks exist, but why see the proverbial demon behind every bush? If you just need to vent, many people besides just myself can be very supportive of you. But lets not fight phantoms ...

I was mercilessly bullied by a group of kids of another race for racial reasons when I was younger. I eventually realized that it was on them and not an entire race of people. I harbored anger for a long time. It isn't easy to deal with.

And whether you want to hear it or not, more than a few of us DON'T hate atheists nor do we condone what was done to you in any way, shape, or form. And- perhaps I'm sheltered- but I don't think what you've experienced is in any way normal or a usual occurrence- at least not in my neck of the woods- so I DO honestly happen to be a little surprised.

ETA: I almost didn't post this- because I don't think anything I say will be accepted by you.

floating axehead said:

Wait, now you're addressing phantoms? "People" whom you perceive, and are free to assign whatever malice you wish to, who have not expressed an opinion?

Please see my point, that this is "messed up." I don't deny such folks exist, but why see the proverbial demon behind every bush? If you just need to vent, many people besides just myself can be very supportive of you. But lets not fight phantoms ...

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Not really. I've been posting here for nigh on ten years. I was raised with the Christian mindset. I know it pretty well. That you've limited me to three pisters who have said virtually nothing doesn't exactly prove me wrong, but shows that you know what I'm getting at.

I think JGG is a bit on the paranoid side. That said, I totally believe these things have happened to him...I grew up in a small Baptist-only town basically at those sorts of things happened all of the time. Additionally, I believe if you look hard enough on CF or could gauge Christian opinions where they wouldn't be heard: Some definitely like the idea of two of their biggest enemy groups fighting it out to the death, I know this as fact. It's an opinion my parents hold and they are big time Baptists.

However, I do not find this opinion to be universal or even majority within Christianity. If it was, then all of us non-Christians would be at huge risk but we aren't.

All of this said, let's not forget that Islam isn't exactly kind to people who disagree with Islam...

I must admit, many times when it comes to heated discussions, I glance over the entire thing without paying much attention. This is mainly due to the fact that people on EITHER SIDE tend to resort to insults and other personal attacks. Then they try to skimp around it by saying "Oh I wasn't insulting; I said this" and they once again state their obvious (yet not entiiiiirely direct) inference to the error, stupidity, or worthlessness of the other person. What's even worse is when people use the Bible to back up that statement. As if attempting to use the Sword of the Spirit against a fellow human is for a holy purpose!

For those of you Christians out there who detest someone because they are Muslim, keep in mind that there are people who detest you because of the Westborough Baptist Church, the Crusades, and so forth.

Does that make them right? Is it ok for people to point to members of the WBC and say "SEE WHAT CHRISTIANITY DOES?!?!?"

Is it OK for them to point to a Christian/Catholic leader who has abused children and say "SEE WHAT GOING TO CHURCH DOES?!?!?"

Absolutely not. Yet the ones who point the fingers to all Muslims are the ones who so radically defend their own beliefs by calling those statements "overgeneralization", "judgement", "misrepresentation". If you REALLY want the same rights you expect this world to give you, then keep your mouth shut the next time you spit on someone because they're different - whether you do it literally or speak it, which is just as bad.

Love your neighbor as yourself.

And do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

That being said, thank you to the people in here who, rather than using this tragedy as an excuse to bombard people of a different belief, acknowledge the sadness and simply pray for redemption, peace, and healing.

In my mind, everyone's destination is between them and God - whether here or in our next life. The only person who knows where I'm going is me.

I'm not excusing violence, either. Whether or not the protest was ENTIRELY peaceful (doubtful) or whether the police were the ONLY victims of brutality (doubtful), in my mind, whoever raised their hand with malevolent intent to harm another is personally responsible for their own actions. I support physical self defense, which is a whole different debate; but brutality, cruelty, and malice are unexcusable. Regardless of whether you are Muslim, Hindu, Christian, Buddhist, WHATEVER, we are all programmed with moral standards. I'm not here to debate the details on that, either. I'm saying that any grown individual is responsible to not violate the well being of another, if done with the intent to harm out of rage or anger.

Many of you will use the fact that "In the Quran, it explicitly states to kill unbelievers". On top of the fact that while we're all accusing others of taking the Bible out of context, we do it for every other belief system, the Lord of the Old Testament commanded His people to execute every man, woman, and child in the society they were sent to conquest. Many Christians will argue "Well, that was a different time" or "Well, the people were so corrupt that it needed to be done".

So such an instance was OK back then - and if someone, say the entire US military, were to decide they heard a voice from God commanding them to not only BOMB Japan in WWII, but to hunt down and murder ever single person - from infant to elderly - would we excuse that?

As for accusing the Muslims that their text commands them to kill Christians...regardless of what it "says" or not, is the interpretation and action not more important? The only Muslims I have ever met encouraged love, peace, other things that we have in common. They tell me that the verses have been abused and taken out of context. They tell me that there was a time that Islam was under attack, misunderstood, and that it was only to be done in self defense...on top of the fact that anyone wishing to convert, whether they had initiated the attack, should be spared.

Before you say "Oh now it's inconsistent", keep in mind that many of them will say the same about our Lord in the Old Testament. And the returned answer will be something along the lines of "Well, it was a different time then..."

All that aside, it's not like I'm a fan of the Quran. I've read many books and it's certainly not one I care for. Nor am I a Muslim, and I will certainly never be. It just angers me to see those of us who are supposed to be encouraging others spewing verbal attacks while waving an "I Love You!" banner.

There are good and bad people in nearly every religion, at least the most widespread ones, and even some of the sparsely followed ones. Who are you to wave your finger? We are all created equal, and Christ's blood accounts for ALL. OF. US.

LoAmmi said:

All groups have members that are jerks.

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And if we were to, just for the sake of argument, say that for every ten persons on the planet one of them is a jerk, that means chances are that the bigger the religion in terms of numbers, the more jerks are going to be found adhering to that religion.

Given that Christianity constitutes about a third of the human population on the planet, I would expect to find more Christian jerks.

Which isn't to say it's only about numbers. only pointing out that even we just argued that route, it would be the case.

I think the problem is compounded by additional factors:

Christianity isn't just a populous religion, it's a powerful religion. By that I mean it has been the religion of those in power in the West for centuries, even in nations that have a separation of Church and State (such as the U.S.), it's still the case that the majority of the cultural and political elite is going to be Christian, that those in the seats of power confess Christianity as their religion, giving Christianity a cultural edge; and thus providing a larger platform for abuse of power.

Due to the nature of power politics throughout Christianity's history, there has been ample opportunity for certain theologies of power to be crafted and disseminated among the believing public--both clerical and lay. Such that the union of Christianity and Culture is a profoundly intertwined one. A Christian advocates a Christian triumphalism, whether implicitly or explicitly, because it's part of the larger cultural milieu.

When Christians were being hunted down by the powers that be, and being a Christian meant being a cultural outsider, there was no basis for such cultural triumphalist language or practice; but the moment Christianity becomes attached to the bastions of power and culture, it is necessary to see the two as somehow one and the same.

That means the outsider is now a perceived threat to the tribe, and the tribe must be defended at all costs, perhaps even preemptively and violently.

This Christian triumphalism and tribalism is endemic to the Christian enterprise in the West, and it is an arduous task to try and unweave the faith from the culture.

It also means a far larger proclivity to being a Jerk for Jesus. Jesus is the icon for the tribe, and the tribe needs defending, and that probably means acting like a jerk to those outside of the tribe.

-CryptoLutheran

FrenchyBearpaw said:

Muslims in Bangladesh riot to kill atheists and believers of other faiths, and stricter control of women.

BBC News - Riot police battle Islamists in Dhaka Bangladesh

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It is to my great shame that there are un-Godly muslims in the world.

May God forgive them...

orangelight said:

Like religion, like followers! But it's good for humanity that there are a lot of moderate and liberal "Muslims" who do not follow their religious texts strictly or the footsteps of Mohamed.

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Catherineanne said:

I would say those are the people who ARE following Mohammed.

Islam is a way of life; it offers people a way to honour God in their daily lives, from the moment they wake until they sleep again. Moslems are gentle, kind, hospitable, loving people. They are not strident, or aggressive in their prostelytising.

The newer, more aggressive political movement which is hiding behind Islam is nothing like the Islam of the past 1,600 years. Islam is not anti-intellectual, it is not anti-historical, it is not anti-cultural. Wahabbi Islam is all of these things; it will destroy historical sites of other religions without a thought, and it would appear it will also do the same to its own. It oppresses women in the name of freedom, and condemns girls to marriage from the age of nine, with no problems whatever.

This is not religion, and it is nothing to do with honouring the Prophet. It is about power, status and the oppression of people. It is about the construction of totalitarian states in the name of Mohammed. God has nothing to do with it whatsoever.

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Sure there is good and kind Muslims, who do not follow their religious texts strictly, specially the Medina verses, but is Islam and Mohammed as an invader and attacker good and peaceful? After my studies to that religion, Quran, hadith, the history and the character of it's prophet, claiming that it's peaceful only because there are good "Muslims", would be like a self-lie.

Mohammed as well married Aysha a 6(9) years old girl and destroyed other religions and people when in power,without any second thought. Islam is based on Quran (the book of Allah) which was the guide for Mohammed and encourages anything mohammed did and what the Wahabis are doing. So what indications do you have to say that Islam has nothing to do with what Islamists are doing? Aren't they the true followers of the book?

orangelight said:

Sure there is good and kind Muslims, who do not follow their religious texts strictly, specially the Medina verses, but is Islam and Mohammed as an invader and attacker good and peaceful? After my studies to that religion, Quran, hadith, the history and the character of it's prophet, claiming that it's peaceful only because there are good "Muslims", would be like a self-lie.

Mohammed as well married Aysha a 6(9) years old girl and destroyed other religions and people when in power,without any second thought. Islam is based on Quran (the book of Allah) which was the guide for Mohammed and encourages anything mohammed did and what the Wahabis are doing. So what indications do you have to say that Islam has nothing to do with what Islamists are doing? Aren't they the true followers of the book?

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You could apply the same sort of arguments to Christianity.

FrenchyBearpaw said:

Muslims in Bangladesh riot to kill atheists and believers of other faiths, and stricter control of women.

BBC News - Riot police battle Islamists in Dhaka Bangladesh

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Apparently you don't understand the difference between Islamists and Muslims or you would not have titled this thread "Muslims in Bangladesh rito to kill atheists." The police trying to stop these riots were Muslims. An Islamist is someone who turns Islam into a political ideology.

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:

Also, reportedly 2,500 Muslim activists in Bangladesh (i.e. those who oppose atheism infiltrating their country) were killed by the police (who tend to side with the atheists) last night.

BANGLADESH: A massacre of demonstrators — Asian Human Rights Commission

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Sounds to me like Muslims were killing Muslims.

And why, btw, are atheists not entitled to their civil rights? You asked me on another thread what constitutes religious intolerance. This is a good example.

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:

But when the religious Muslims protest to have people accused of blasphemy (a serious crime in Islaam) executed, they're treated to beatings, tear gas, and bullets. It's not ok for them to call for a punishment deserving of the crime they committed in an Islaamic state.

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Thank you for this fine example of intolerance.

LoveBeingAMuslimah said:

As for born Muslims apostatizing, then yes, in an Islaamic state it would carry the punishment of death

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And you think this is right?

What about the apostasy laws that you believe God revealed in the Old Testament?

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What may have been appropriate thousands of years ago is not necessarily appropriate today. I don't blame Muhammad for applying the death penalty to (male) apostates because they were in the midst of a war and those who apostatize were essentially traitors changing sides in the middle of a battle. But when there is no war going and no question of someone taking up arms against Muslims just because they change their religion then such a law is barbaric. It is as Baha'u'llah says:

"The All-Knowing Physician hath His finger on the pulse of mankind. He perceiveth the disease, and prescribeth, in His unerring wisdom, the remedy. Every age hath its own problem, and every soul its particular aspiration. The remedy the world needeth in its present-day afflictions can never be the same as that which a subsequent age may require. Be anxiously concerned with the needs of the age ye live in, and center your deliberations on its exigencies and requirements."

This is why the Muslim insistence that revelation ended with Muhammad is so wrong-headed.

“And Joseph came to you aforetime with clear tokens, but ye ceased not to doubt of the message with which He came to you, until, when He died, ye said, ‘God will by no means raise up a Messenger after Him.’ Thus God misleadeth him who is the transgressor the doubter.” (Qur'an 40:34)

Treason results in intended killing as well. Just think of blasphemy as high treason in an Islaamic state.

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And you think that is right?
Once again, the reason that apostasy carried the death penalty during Muhammad's time is that it *was* treason in the midst of war and that gets people killed. The same cannot be said about blasphemy. When Muhammad approved the assassination of poets, etc. it was because they were inciting violence and warfare against Muslims.

LoAmmi said:

Apostasy laws are ridiculous in modern times. I actually border on apostasy laws being ridiculous in ancient times, but I understand them in context. I view the death penalty itself as ridiculous in modern times even when applied to murderers. Were my faith to start calling for the death of apostates or those who picked up sticks on Shabbat, I would leave skid marks on the floor leaving.

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I bring up with the Tanak says about apostasy when I see people criticizing Muhammad for this, but I have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone who wants to apply these laws today.

JGG said:

The Christians must be having a tough time figuring out who to root for here.

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After the sixteenth and seventeenth century most Christians figured out that killing people in the name of religion was not really a good idea. Of course, the 18th century Enlightenment which was explicitly anti-Christian helped them along.