Paid Time Off

Employers and employees negotiate contracts that are mutually agreeable. Paid sick days and vacation days are among the things that an employer can offer to attract employees.

In liberal, big-government countries such as France, Spain, and Italy, employers are required to offer a generous package of paid sick days and vacation days to every employee. This raises the cost of hiring an employee, and thus reduces the motivations that employers have to hire anyone. Not surprisingly, those countries have experienced high unemployment rates in recent years.

yasic said:

A lot of people complain about there not being mandated paid time off (either vacation time or sick days) from major employers, at least in the US.

I don't understand the logic behind this? Why should companies be required to pay people to not work for them? Isn't the whole point of payment to get compensated for doing something productive.

I mean I can understand there being regulations against not firing those who are genuinely sick or holding it against them for not going into work, but also paying for it?

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Paid time off is part of the recompense for the work one does when one is at work. In most of the western world we've worked out that you get the best out of staff by ensuring they are looked after, get adequate times to rest, etc. not by maximising the amount of hours worked per dollar.

AlexBP said:

Employers and employees negotiate contracts that are mutually agreeable. Paid sick days and vacation days are among the things that an employer can offer to attract employees.

In liberal, big-government countries such as France, Spain, and Italy, employers are required to offer a generous package of paid sick days and vacation days to every employee. This raises the cost of hiring an employee, and thus reduces the motivations that employers have to hire anyone. Not surprisingly, those countries have experienced high unemployment rates in recent years.

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The Nordic countries say hi.

AlexBP said:

Employers and employees negotiate contracts that are mutually agreeable. Paid sick days and vacation days are among the things that an employer can offer to attract employees.

In liberal, big-government countries such as France, Spain, and Italy, employers are required to offer a generous package of paid sick days and vacation days to every employee. This raises the cost of hiring an employee, and thus reduces the motivations that employers have to hire anyone. Not surprisingly, those countries have experienced high unemployment rates in recent years.

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Except your "big government countries" include just about every western country other than the US, including those with currently well performing economies like Australia. Of course if you want to compete with India on equal terms.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_unemployment_rate

Doesn't seem that that US is succeeding on unemployment by not paying leave.

ebia said:

Except your "big government countries" include just about every western country other than the US, including those with currently well performing economies like Australia. Of course if you want to compete with India on equal terms.

List of countries by unemployment rate - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Doesn't seem that that US is succeeding on unemployment by not paying leave.

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Obviously there are many factors that affect employment. Government rules regarding sick days and vacation days are just one. While the USA may give us the most freedom in those areas, there are other areas of employment law where the government restricts our freedom. Some examples would be minimum wage laws, required overtime pay, and so forth.

You point to Australia as an example of a country with a health economy. Australia has one of the most free economies in the world. I doubt that's a coincidence. Switzerland has an unemployment rate even lower than Australia's, and it also has one of the most free economies on earth.

AlexBP said:

Obviously there are many factors that affect employment. Government rules regarding sick days and vacation days are just one. While the USA may give us the most freedom in those areas, there are other areas of employment law where the government restricts our freedom. Some examples would be minimum wage laws, required overtime pay, and so forth.

You point to Australia as an example of a country with a health economy. Australia has one of the most free economies in the world. I doubt that's a coincidence. Switzerland has an unemployment rate even lower than Australia's, and it also has one of the most free economies on earth.

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Australia's economy is not any more free than that of most European countries, the fact that it is at all is only due to its much smaller negotiating power in the face of the large protectionist blocks of the United States and the EC. People imagine Australia as some kind of Southern Hemisphere US ideal, of individualism and free trade but it isn't; its remarkably similar to the UK but without the EC. In particular it has very similar employment laws to the UK and other EC countries; much more stringent on leave, overtime, minimum wage, medicare and retirement contributions, etc, than the US. Overall a much higher cost of employment, yet a successful economy.

yasic said:

A lot of people complain about there not being mandated paid time off (either vacation time or sick days) from major employers, at least in the US.

I don't understand the logic behind this? Why should companies be required to pay people to not work for them? Isn't the whole point of payment to get compensated for doing something productive.


I mean I can understand there being regulations against not firing those who are genuinely sick or holding it against them for not going into work, but also paying for it?

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Vacation is part of a benefits package that various employers offer to make their employees happy. Sick days can fall under the same heading but their is a better reason. If I go to work while I am sick I am less productive and ran the risk of infecting other employees. These other employees are then less productive.

ALLorNOTHINGatall4CHRIST said:

Vacation days I can see your point, HOWEVER I believe that sick days are different as most of the time people can do nothing about them.

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In my country there are some limited number of payed sick days, though the employer does not pay them, rather the government pays them. As a compensation you are required to pay every month insurance payment. So, even it is called "insurance", it is a tax of a kind as the payment is mandatory.

There are also fixed number of days for vacation, other than usual non-working days, like Saturdays and Sundays. Though I guess they are compensated by the employer by giving you less money as a wage.

BTW, there is nothing wrong or correct with having such things. Some people will always oppose them and some will like them. If you ask me it should be personal choice to have them or not, of course will all consequences, like paying insurance or lowering your wage proportionally to the expected vacation time.

ebia said:

Australia's economy is not any more free than that of most European countries, the fact that it is at all is only due to its much smaller negotiating power in the face of the large protectionist blocks of the United States and the EC. People imagine Australia as some kind of Southern Hemisphere US ideal, of individualism and free trade but it isn't; its remarkably similar to the UK but without the EC. In particular it has very similar employment laws to the UK and other EC countries; much more stringent on leave, overtime, minimum wage, medicare and retirement contributions, etc, than the US. Overall a much higher cost of employment, yet a successful economy.

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The best scientific ranking of economic freedom comes from the Heritage Foundation, which ranks all countries in ten different areas. Here's a link:

Country Rankings: World & Global Economy Rankings on Economic Freedom

Overall, Australia's score is 82.6, the third highest in the world. Australia's score on labor freedom is 83.5, also among the highest in the world.

Obviously, as I've said, there's not an exact linear relationship between any government policy and any economic indicator. A nation's economy is shaped by the sum total of all government policies and other factors as well. However, generally speaking the most free countries are the healthiest economically. The top 5 countries on Heritage's index are Hong Kong, Singapore, Australia, New Zealand, and Switzerland. The bottom 5 are Eritrea, Venezuela, Zimbabwe, Cuba, and North Korea. I think the top 5 are better places to live than the bottom 5.

AlexBP said:

Australia's score on labor freedom is 83.5, also among the highest in the world.

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But noticeably less than the US.

While the US seems to have a philosophy that freedom is always a good thing that will always produce the best results, countries like Australia have a much mire balanced and pragmatic approach; does this consider the immediate interests of everyone, will it work. So that, for instance, workers do have guaranteed rights like a vaguely plausible minimum wage, annual, personal and maternity leave, universal health care, etc. and that pays back into the economy.

IzzyPop said:

Vacation is part of a benefits package that various employers offer to make their employees happy. Sick days can fall under the same heading but their is a better reason. If I go to work while I am sick I am less productive and ran the risk of infecting other employees. These other employees are then less productive.

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There are actually good reasons for an employer to require real vacations. As in 2 or more weeks.

Giving an employee a break is the least of them.

Discovering dangers in knowledge being concentrated in a few hands is significant. Far better to discover Fred is the only guy who can fix problems in the whompus maker when Fred if out for 2 weeks than after Fred has quit and is working for a competitor.

Even more important is theft and embezzlement tend to get discovered when the thief is out and unable to cover their tracks.

keith99 said:

There are actually good reasons for an employer to require real vacations. As in 2 or more weeks.

Giving an employee a break is the least of them.

Discovering dangers in knowledge being concentrated in a few hands is significant. Far better to discover Fred is the only guy who can fix problems in the whompus maker when Fred if out for 2 weeks than after Fred has quit and is working for a competitor.

Even more important is theft and embezzlement tend to get discovered when the thief is out and unable to cover their tracks.

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Those are important, but I submit that (its well established) that you get the best performance from people by ensuring they take regular breaks (not to mention biblically mandated). You don't get good work by encouraging people to overwork.

keith99 said:

There are actually good reasons for an employer to require real vacations. As in 2 or more weeks.

Giving an employee a break is the least of them.

Discovering dangers in knowledge being concentrated in a few hands is significant. Far better to discover Fred is the only guy who can fix problems in the whompus maker when Fred if out for 2 weeks than after Fred has quit and is working for a competitor.

Even more important is theft and embezzlement tend to get discovered when the thief is out and unable to cover their tracks.

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Reminds me of a story...

I lived in an apartment building that used an ancient system for their HVAC and the tech came out twice a year to flip the switches and reroute the flow to change from heat to air conditioning or the reverse. The last year I was their we had to wait until the middle of June to get AC because the technician went and died and nobody else knew how to change the system over.

I don't see the point in it being mandatory.

The agency I work for explained in our training that it wants to keep good employees for a long time. They also do not want their employees to be burnt out. They therefore offer more and more benefits for the longer an employee has been around. For example, your vacation increases as you increase the amount of years you're there. I currently have 3-4 weeks worth of potential vacation time - why would I want to go work somewhere else and have to start over with earning vacation time or to get no vacation time at all? I also have good health insurance, a gym membership, bonuses, and other perks that make sticking around very appealing.

As for sick time - I work with clients with disabilities that do not need to be getting sick and neither do my coworkers. Some of my coworkers would (and sadly, have) come in when very sick and then passed their illness on to clients and other staff in the process. Paid sick time discourages sick people from doing that in most cases.