The Achilles Heel of Atheism

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Sectio Aurea

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The God I claim exists is "goodness" itself.

Is your god of "goodness" the very same god depicted in bible scripture below?

Zephaniah 1:2-6 (NLT)

2 "I will sweep away everything in all your land," says the LORD. 3 "I will sweep away both people and animals alike. Even the birds of the air and the fish in the sea will die. I will reduce the wicked to heaps of rubble, along with the rest of humanity," says the LORD. 4 "I will crush Judah and Jerusalem with my fist and destroy every last trace of their Baal worship. I will put an end to all the idolatrous priests, so that even the memory of them will disappear. 5 For they go up to their roofs and bow to the sun, moon, and stars. They claim to follow the LORD, but then they worship Molech, too. So now I will destroy them! 6 And I will destroy those who used to worship me but now no longer do. They no longer ask for the LORD's guidance or seek my blessings."
 
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Eudaimonist

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The God I claim exists is "goodness" itself.

I understand what a good act is, and what a good person is, but I don't know what you mean by "goodness".

In what sense does "goodness" exist in its own right? Goodness is something we say about someone. Goodness is the quality of being good. A person who is good or who does good things may exist, but in what sense can "goodness" exist all by itself?

May I now post whom ye serve?

I could say goodness, but I wouldn't be referring to a "whom".


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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Davian

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I worship(thank, serve(by the grace of God alone)) goodness.

May I now post whom ye serve?
Don't change the subject.

You made the declaration that this God of yours is "good", or "goodness". By what standard are you judging this God character?
 
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Elioenai26

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I would ask for something beyond "Because people whom I trust told me so."

I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Christianity makes a claim upon a person and also makes claims about persons. These claims are of an inconceivably important nature if Christianity is true. In fact, if Christianity is true, then Christ's birth, death, and resurrection are the three greatest events in all of human history and every person who has ever lived is in one way or another affected by these said events.

So no, I would not ask you to just take my "word" for it if I told you Christianity is true and all other religions are false. I would expect you to expect me to offer some type of evidence, some type of good reason(s) as to why Christianity is true. Since these matters would literally touch every aspect of your life, I would expect you to honestly, and earnestly desire to be sure about your belief.

Personally, I do not believe in Christ because people who I trust told me to believe in Him. In fact, there are some friends I have in my life who are not believers and I trust them and there are some believers who I would be hesitant to trust regarding certain things. Just because someone is a believer in Christ does not mean that they are automatically completely trustworthy. Likewise, just because someone is not a believer does not mean they are completely untrustworthy.

If I were discussing my faith with you, I would not tell you to believe in Christ for the remission of your sins and the salvation of your soul because the Pope, my pastor, my youth director, my Christian friends, Billy Graham, or Charles Stanley said so. I would tell you to look into the life of Christ for yourself. Read the New Testament for yourself. I would tell you to talk with those who are godly men and women and those who show by their lives and actions, not merely their words, that they are Christians.




I see no reason to consider the accuracy of your religious beliefs to be any greater than those of people who are a different religion because they were told a different religion was correct.

A religion's accuracy with regards to the recordings of historical events should be based on the evidence we have and what we know to be true regarding the events in question.

For example:

Either Islam is true and Christianity is false or Christianity is true and Islam is false, or they are both false.

What they cannot be is both true. Why? Because they each make mutually exclusive claims regarding the fate of Jesus of Nazareth for one.

Islam claims that Jesus was never actually crucified. Christianity does. Now we all know that it must be either or. So with regards to this crucial matter for example, I would simply ask you to do the research. If the evidence points to the conclusion that Jesus was indeed crucified under Pontius Pilate, then we can be certain that Islam is indeed false.

This is simply one example of a comparative study to determine the veracity of a religion's truth claims.

If you say that you feel it in your heart or something, that's great for you and I'm not trying to convert you, but you can't expect that to be enough to make me share your beliefs when people of every religion say the same thing.

It is true, people of various religions say that in some way or another, their convictions are deep and true.

But we know that these convictions cannot all be actually true. I can say that I feel Jesus in my heart all day long, but if this "feeling" is actually nothing more than wishful thinking, then I am deceived and misled. Likewise, if a Muslim says they feel Allah in their heart, leading them and guiding them to commit Jihad by cutting the heads off of Christians and other infidels, then they are either actually correct, or they are deceived.

When Christians confess that Christ dwells within them, then they are either correct and Christ does abide within them by His Spirit, or they are incorrect and this supposed "abiding" is simply a deception.

So no, I do not expect you to all of a sudden drop everything, confess Christ is Lord and Savior, and there on out, live a life of love and obedience to Him just because I tell you He lives in me or because I tell you I have a warm fuzzy feeling in my heart...
 
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Upisoft

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This trend involves the nontheist asserting for sundry reasons which they provide, that theism, specifically of the Christian stripe, is immoral.
You probably had very limited number of conversations. For example, I don't think that theism or any kind of ideology is immoral. Only people are or could be immoral, and ideologies are clearly not people.
 
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Elioenai26

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You probably had very limited number of conversations. For example, I don't think that theism or any kind of ideology is immoral. Only people are or could be immoral, and ideologies are clearly not people.

Thank you Upisoft for your contribution to this religious discussion.

I have spoken both in person and via other forms of communication with quite a few nontheists. I will not presume to give you a definite number however.

I have learned much from them and am thankful to God for the opportunity to be able to speak with some remarkable, amazing people.

With regards to your understanding of the adjective "immoral", you are incorrect in saying that the word can only apply to people. The adjective "immoral" can be used to describe a number of things, not just people.

For example:

In the American Heritage Dictionary, "immoral" is simply defined as: Contrary to established moral principles. (The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.)

Here there is no indication whatsoever that this must apply to people only.

The Collins English Dictionary defines the word as:

1. transgressing accepted moral rules; corrupt
2. sexually dissolute; profligate or promiscuous
3. unscrupulous or unethical immoral trading
4. tending to corrupt or resulting from corruption an immoral film immoral earnings


(Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003)


So you see my friend, your statement that the word "immoral" is only used to describe people is wrong.
 
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Cearbhall

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If I were discussing my faith with you, I would not tell you to believe in Christ for the remission of your sins and the salvation of your soul because the Pope, my pastor, my youth director, my Christian friends, Billy Graham, or Charles Stanley said so. I would tell you to look into the life of Christ for yourself. Read the New Testament for yourself. I would tell you to talk with those who are godly men and women and those who show by their lives and actions, not merely their words, that they are Christians.
Thank you for being so open-minded and tolerant. :) Your post impressed me and there's really not much that I would contest.

I think you're making a universal statement here, but I'd just like to address this part and mention that I personally have done all those things, as I was raised Catholic with church every Sunday and was educated by Catholic institutions (and still am). I stopped being Christian when I was exposed more to other faiths, as well as faithlessness, and decided that I didn't see enough truth in Christianity.
 
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astein

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Thank you for being so open-minded and tolerant. :) Your post impressed me and there's really not much that I would contest.

I think you're making a universal statement here, but I'd just like to address this part and mention that I personally have done all those things, as I was raised Catholic with church every Sunday and was educated by Catholic institutions (and still am). I stopped being Christian when I was exposed more to other faiths, as well as faithlessness, and decided that I didn't see enough truth in Christianity.

Draw near unto God and He will Draw near unto you. How do we do this, by reading His word. By abiding in love. Love believes all things. All things are of love and without love, is nought.

Believe in His word and be set free. Set free from worry, from doubt, from anger. Be free.
All of the goodness you have acquired is good, hold fast. His word is true. All things are good.

Trust in the Lord and be amazed friend. In a situation where a "man" is lifted up by his/her teaching, lift The Word of God up with that excitement instead.

For those that fear. If we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that refusing to test that thing is of fear. Test it. Truely believe in it. Trust in it, without wavering, without being ashamed. Exalt Jesus. Speak only good of Him. Discipline ones self. Refrain from over indulgence. Refrain from cussing. Refrain from eating until your completely full. Refrain from getting angry when driving. Love your friends. Love the one next to you and hope the best for them. If wrong comes upon you, give to them. Expect no return. Give and rejoice within yourselves. Be thankful for what you have. Understand that One is aware of all, and loves you. Is always watching. Mankind perishes, but the true love, is eternal.
 
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Davian

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<snip>
It is true, people of various religions say that in some way or another, their convictions are deep and true.

But we know that these convictions cannot all be actually true. I can say that I feel Jesus in my heart all day long, but if this "feeling" is actually nothing more than wishful thinking, then I am deceived and misled. Likewise, if a Muslim says they feel Allah in their heart, leading them and guiding them to commit Jihad by cutting the heads off of Christians and other infidels, then they are either actually correct, or they are deceived.

When Christians confess that Christ dwells within them, then they are either correct and Christ does abide within them by His Spirit, or they are incorrect and this supposed "abiding" is simply a deception.
Deception *is* a far more parsimonious explanation
So no, I do not expect you to all of a sudden drop everything, confess Christ is Lord and Savior, and there on out, live a life of love and obedience to Him just because I tell you He lives in me or because I tell you I have a warm fuzzy feeling in my heart...
But is not that actually why *you* believe? All that stuff in your OP is just window dressing?
 
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Upisoft

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So you see my friend, your statement that the word "immoral" is only used to describe people is wrong.
I'm not arguing with dictionary usage of the word. Technically you can say "invisible pink unicorn" either, no dictionary will forbid that particular combination of words, though you know that "pink" and "invisible" are contradiction.

In same sense I think that using the word "immoral" detached from people is contradiction.

For example "immoral earnings" does not mean that earnings are immoral, it means they were obtained due to immoral actions of that person. Say those money was used to save a life. Was that action immoral, because money were immoral?
 
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Cearbhall

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Draw near unto God and He will Draw near unto you. How do we do this, by reading His word. By abiding in love. Love believes all things. All things are of love and without love, is nought.

Believe in His word and be set free. Set free from worry, from doubt, from anger. Be free.
All of the goodness you have acquired is good, hold fast. His word is true. All things are good.

Trust in the Lord and be amazed friend. In a situation where a "man" is lifted up by his/her teaching, lift The Word of God up with that excitement instead.

For those that fear. If we are honest with ourselves, we must admit that refusing to test that thing is of fear. Test it. Truely believe in it. Trust in it, without wavering, without being ashamed. Exalt Jesus. Speak only good of Him. Discipline ones self. Refrain from over indulgence. Refrain from cussing. Refrain from eating until your completely full. Refrain from getting angry when driving. Love your friends. Love the one next to you and hope the best for them. If wrong comes upon you, give to them. Expect no return. Give and rejoice within yourselves. Be thankful for what you have. Understand that One is aware of all, and loves you. Is always watching. Mankind perishes, but the true love, is eternal.
:sigh:

At least you have good intentions...

If you wrote that yourself, though, you certainly have a way with words.
 
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Elioenai26

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I'm not arguing with dictionary usage of the word. Technically you can say "invisible pink unicorn" either, no dictionary will forbid that particular combination of words, though you know that "pink" and "invisible" are contradiction.

In same sense I think that using the word "immoral" detached from people is contradiction.

For example "immoral earnings" does not mean that earnings are immoral, it means they were obtained due to immoral actions of that person. Say those money was used to save a life. Was that action immoral, because money were immoral?

You are confusing "morals" or "morality" (both of which are nouns) with "immoral" which is an adjective. It is true that "morality" can only pertain to persons because by definition it is something pertaining only to humans.

However, the adjectives "moral, immoral, amoral" can be used to describe a wide array of nouns.
 
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Davian

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No Davian....I do not believe in Christ because a Christian told me to believe in Him or because they told me they had the "warm fuzzies".
Let's try this again...
...I have a warm fuzzy feeling in my heart...
But is not that actually why *you* believe? All that stuff in your OP is just window dressing?
 
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Elioenai26

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Let's try this again...

But is not that actually why *you* believe? All that stuff in your OP is just window dressing?

No Davian, I do not believe in Christ because I have a warm fuzzy feeling in my heart......

In fact, for me, a warm fuzzy feeling in my heart Is usually indicative of nothing more than indigestion/heartburn.
 
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Davian

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No Davian, I do not believe in Christ because I have a warm fuzzy feeling in my heart......

In fact, for me, a warm fuzzy feeling in my heart Is usually indicative of nothing more than indigestion/heartburn.
So what were you referring to when you wrote "...I feel Jesus in my heart all day long" in that same post?
 
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Upisoft

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Just think, if immorality didn't exist, neither of those excuses would attempt to serve a purpose.
Why do you think this was an excuse? One can use "immoral" money to save life without knowing the money were "immoral". Say the husband is a criminal and sells drugs. The wife is quite gullible and does not know that, but she knows they have money. She uses some money to save someone's life, as she is also quite good person and loves to help people. So, was her act "immoral" or not? If not, then the money were not "immoral", or they would transfer that property on her act.
 
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