The NSA Debacle

Its been known for years, its just recently the mainstream news decided to publish it. Just more political maneuvering. But who really cares hm? I don't see We The People uprooting all the oath breakers in office. Just like the Children of Israel in slavery, we don't raise a fuss even though they steal half our money in taxes, spy on us, harass us, lie to us, and send our young men to die for their games. As long as we've got paved roads, decent internet service, and electricity, we'll just call it even.

Inkachu said:

What are your thoughts on the recent revelations about the NSA and its activities? Are you shocked, skeptical, suspicious? Has it changed how you view your government, and your own personal freedom and privacy? I realize this story is still developing, and new details may come to light later on.

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Not in the least shocked. I already knew about aspects of it. It's one of those topics that unless you get a guy like Snowden to release stuff, most people think you're a "conspiracy theorist nut job" if you mention it. That kind of info doesn't fit with their paradigm, it's uncomfortable, so they rather not think on it.

Stuff like this is why I take pains to NOT use:

Google
Youtube

For research (except by hiding my IP first, or using a separate IP host, and/or using a search engine that doesn't log it)

or

Facebook (it's the FBI, CIA and local law enforcement's wet dream) or someone else's dark nightmare if 2+2 is added with the result of drawing a conclusion of 5.

So far, it's working. A search of my real name on Google, for instance, still reveals that I'm living in America somewhere when that's not true and hasn't been for well over a decade.

I'm not surprised by what's going on, nor am I taken aback by the general apathy of our culture. Our government is growing bigger and people are becoming less informed; that's a lethal combination for any country.

Personally, I think this is less about catching terrorists and more about an administration who wants to know who opposes them. We've seen numerous people threatened and intimidated by our government within the last few years and those who don't fall in line are swiftly thrown under the bus. I think at this point Obama has nothing to lose and will do anything to cover his tracks. I never felt uncomfortable under Bush's watch because it seemed clear that he knew the limitations of the Patriot Act and understood the responsibility that came with it. So far this current crowd has no boundaries and that worries me more than anything. They want to look for terrorists at home and yet they believe that peace talks with the Taliban and aiding countries like Egypt will bring about peace? It's foolish and naive, causing me to question their true motives in all of this. I could be wrong but it makes me more than a bit uneasy. I obviously hate terrorism but the thought of our government tracking me because I disagree with Obama's policies is truly frightening. Again, this is just speculation and I hope to be proven wrong.

As for Snowden, I have mixed feelings about him. Part of me admires what he did and another part of me thinks he really overstepped his bounds. The government is getting out of control and yet all people here care about is more handouts and being taken care of. They don't yet realize the danger of big government and by the time they do I fear it will be far too late. Only a fool trades freedom for security, neither of which our government can accurately give us.

I'm also not surprised. When the Patriot Act passed, I expected this. And, frankly, even before that was passed, I've always been distrustful of the government. Yes, I'm one of those weirdos who always suspected that there are secret government agencies that spy on us above and beyond the FBI, CIA, and other "legal" entities. I'm honestly not sure what to think of Snowden. But I won't lie, I think it's funny that no one will extradite him to the U.S.

ETA: After reading Stravinsk's post, I think maybe I'm a big idiot for using Google products and being a big user of Facebook. But by the time I realized the danger of those places, it was too late and I'm not convinced it protects me to stay off of them anyway. I like to think I'm unimportant enough that the government will leave me alone and won't really spy on me overly much since I'm kind of boring.

Henrietta said:

ETA: After reading Stravinsk's post, I think maybe I'm a big idiot for using Google products and being a big user of Facebook. But by the time I realized the danger of those places, it was too late and I'm not convinced it protects me to stay off of them anyway. I like to think I'm unimportant enough that the government will leave me alone and won't really spy on me overly much since I'm kind of boring.

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For things like Facebook, it's sort of a trade off. I don't use it because I see it for what it is - a government front for data mining people, seeing where their political positions are, using it for local law enforcement (it's happened here in Australia because of people posting stuff on their Facebook), could even be used to blackmail people.

On the other hand, because I don't use it - I can miss a message given to others who do. This happened recently with regards to an old thread (now removed) in Singles where I was given a very hard time, then when the truth came out, I never knew. Wasn't the OP's fault either, just an oversight that resulted in me being in the dark.

Thunder Peel said:

I'm not surprised by what's going on, nor am I taken aback by the general apathy of our culture. Our government is growing bigger and people are becoming less informed; that's a lethal combination for any country.

Personally, I think this is less about catching terrorists and more about an administration who wants to know who opposes them.

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Isn't a terrorist someone who opposes the government and the way it's run?

QueSi said:

Isn't a terrorist someone who opposes the government and the way it's run?

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No. A terrorist uses fear, violence, and oppression to coerce others into giving them what they want. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with our government and questioning them, which most of us do every day. When you begin killing innocent people, setting off bombs, and using violence to protest then you've moved well beyond the arena of reason.

Thunder Peel said:

No. A terrorist uses fear, violence, and oppression to coerce others into giving them what they want. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with our government and questioning them, which most of us do every day. When you begin killing innocent people, setting off bombs, and using violence to protest then you've moved well beyond the arena of reason.

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The government murders innocent people and sets off bombs everyday. All to further the dominion of the US. They will start to label their opposition as domestic terrorists, and thereby destroy them.

Thunder Peel said:

No. A terrorist uses fear, violence, and oppression to coerce others into giving them what they want. There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with our government and questioning them, which most of us do every day. When you begin killing innocent people, setting off bombs, and using violence to protest then you've moved well beyond the arena of reason.

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All most all of those people who killed innocent people, set off bombs, and used violence to protest did so because they disagreed with the government. Those same people were likely blogging and posting updates and posting threads about their dislike before hand. I think it's great for them to keep an eye on this in case they notice the tale tale signs from posts and updates that a plan might be coming together that will hurt people.

QueSi said:

All most all of those people who killed innocent people, set off bombs, and used violence to protest did so because they disagreed with the government. Those same people were likely blogging and posting updates and posting threads about their dislike before hand. I think it's great for them to keep an eye on this in case they notice the tale tale signs from posts and updates that a plan might be coming together that will hurt people.

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Not necessarily. Al Quida and other terrorist cells strike without warning all the time. The issue I have with all of this is that the Patriot Act gave specific details about who to monitor and what probable cause was needed. If the government now decides that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a potential suspect then they're essentially saying that roughly 100-150 million Americans are potential terrorists just because they don't like the direction our country is headed. I find that much more suspicious because it suppresses freedom of speech and doesn't allow citizens to hold their government accountable.

People trashed Bush each and every day, yet he never targeted them or suppressed their freedom of speech. There's a fine line between someone who opposes what our government is doing and those who want to take violent action. The crazy ones are certainly in the minority and I approve of the NSA monitoring them. It's only when they begin to assume that everyone is a suspect that it gets out of control.

QueSi said:

All most all of those people who killed innocent people, set off bombs, and used violence to protest did so because they disagreed with the government. Those same people were likely blogging and posting updates and posting threads about their dislike before hand. I think it's great for them to keep an eye on this in case they notice the tale tale signs from posts and updates that a plan might be coming together that will hurt people.

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The American Revolution comes to mind. With a very solid surveillance system in place such as we have today, along with the abolition of due process, secret arrests, detention without trial - it never would have happened.

What we are witnessing overall is the rise of a dictatorship in America. The warrantless wiretapping, data mining and other things is just part of that system. The difference between it and what we might think of dictatorship is that it has more of the illusion of freedom. Elections and "democracy" are largely a ruse - especially when candidates for major positions of power are often backed by big banks and corporate interests. The controlling holders in those entities are the real rulers. "Corporate Dictatorship" is probably a better term for it.

Thunder Peel said:

Not necessarily. Al Quida and other terrorist cells strike without warning all the time. The issue I have with all of this is that the Patriot Act gave specific details about who to monitor and what probable cause was needed. If the government now decides that anyone who disagrees with Obama is a potential suspect then they're essentially saying that roughly 100-150 million Americans are potential terrorists just because they don't like the direction our country is headed. I find that much more suspicious because it suppresses freedom of speech and doesn't allow citizens to hold their government accountable.

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Sure some of the terrorist have come from out of the country...and the government tries to monitor that also to prevent attacks. Some come from within the borders and I'm glad that they try to monitor this country too as well as others.

Can you tell me who could be monitored with what kind of probable cause needed for someones communications to be monitored under the patriot act?

I would wager to guess that labeling 100-150 million potential terrorist is better than anything less than that, I wouldn't mind them labeling everyone as a potential terrorist...because everyone is a potential terrorist.

Marking someone as a potential terrorist does not suppress freedom of speech...At all.

Stravinsk said:

The American Revolution comes to mind. With a very solid surveillance system in place such as we have today, along with the abolition of due process, secret arrests, detention without trial - it never would have happened.

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So you're saying that the government is actually preventing a potential war this time instead of starting one? Great point!! Thanks, hadn't thought of this point yet, I'll be using it.

I think you should move.

I'm more surprised by the surprise of the general public. How can any sane person not assume that our government is gathering all the data it can?

Knowledge is power. Power is what governments care about. I mean, we have a freakin' huge military and trillions get spent on developing technology. If power wasn't the goal then the money would be going somewhere else.