What and where is Hell?

mog144 said in post 1:

Hell is literal, and here on Earth . . .

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That's right.

There are two literal hells, one temporary and one eternal. The temporary hell, called Hades in Greek (Luke 16:23) and Sheol in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13), is where the souls of unsaved people go when they die, and where they're tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24). Before Jesus' first coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died, but the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25).

After Jesus fulfilled the gospel by dying for our sins on the Cross and rising from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), he went to Hades and preached the fulfillment of the gospel to the souls there (1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:6) and then drew the souls of obedient believers there up with him when he ascended into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient believers go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11).

At Jesus' 2nd coming, he will bring with him from heaven the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14), and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53). They will then reign on the earth with Jesus for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). After the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-10), all unsaved people of all times will be resurrected out of Hades and judged (Revelation 20:12-13), and then cast into the eternal hell, called the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15, Revelation 21:8), where they will be tormented along with Satan and his fallen angels in fire and brimstone forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11). This eternal hell is also called Gehenna in Greek (Luke 12:5, Mark 9:45-46) and Tophet in Hebrew (Isaiah 30:33).

Tophet was also the name of a place in ancient times called the valley of Hinnom (2 Kings 23:10), just outside the southern wall of Jerusalem (Joshua 15:8). "Gehenna" literally means "the valley (ge) of Hinnom". Just as the ancient Tophet/Gehenna was outside the wall of ancient Jerusalem, so the eternal Gehenna, the lake of fire, will be just outside the wall of New Jerusalem (Revelation 22:15, Revelation 21:8) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-8). Saved people will go forth from New Jerusalem to witness the eternal torment of the unsaved in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24, Mark 9:46, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).

Bible2 said:

That's right.

There are two literal hells, one temporary and one eternal. The temporary hell, called Hades in Greek (Luke 16:23) and Sheol in Hebrew (Psalms 86:13), is where the souls of unsaved people go when they die, and where they're tormented by flame (Luke 16:23-24). Before Jesus' first coming, Hades was also where the souls of saved people went when they died, but the part of Hades for the saved was a place of comfort (Luke 16:25).

After Jesus fulfilled the gospel by dying for our sins on the Cross and rising from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4), he went to Hades and preached the fulfillment of the gospel to the souls there (1 Peter 3:19; 1 Peter 4:6) and then drew the souls of obedient believers there up with him when he ascended into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 12:22-24). Since then, the souls of obedient believers go directly into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8, Revelation 6:9-11).

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everything stated here stems from Roman Catholism and Greek Mytholgy..........a type of purgatory where "souls" go and partially bowrrowing from the greek mythology and the god of the "underworld" Hades with a bit of buddhist and hindu teaching, all mixed with the popular protestant twist

scripture shows that sheol (hebrew) and hades (greek) mean the grave where all go after death ........there is no conscious being in the grave, men are made of dust and return to dust (the grave) and no one returns to life until resurrection from Christ

there is no such thing as an immortal soul and hell doesn't exist until the lake of fire is prepared and they(the wicked) are cast into it burned up becoming nothing but ashes...........souls are human, made of flesh and blood......they don't migrate from one place to another as taught by certain buddhist and hindu sects (transmigration)

God taught and told the first man that if he sinned he would die, he did sin and he did die (returned to dust ceased to be)..........Only God has immortality and he does not offer it to the wicked so they can burn for eternity, immortality through Christ is reserved for saints only

In the hearts and minds of deceived Christians.

Manasseh said in post 4:

scripture shows that sheol (hebrew) and hades (greek) mean the grave where all go after death ...

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In Job 33:22, the original Hebrew word (shachath, H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit that's in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9,10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3). This pit is in the "nether" (the lowermost, Hebrew: tachtiy, H8482) parts of the earth (Ezekiel 32:18-32, Psalms 63:9), and so it could reach down to the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). And it could continue past the center of the earth and continue on in a straight line up the other side of the earth almost to the surface, so that the pit is "bottomless" in that its lowest point is empty space at the center of the earth (in the spiritual dimension). Satan/Lucifer will be cast into this literal "bottomless pit" by an angel at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:3, Isaiah 14:15,12).

Manasseh said in post 4:

....there is no conscious being in the grave, men are made of dust and return to dust (the grave) and no one returns to life until resurrection from Christ

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Only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

So the souls of the dead remain conscious, either in heaven with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46, Acts 3:21) or in fiery punishment in Hades (Luke 16:22-24). At Jesus' second coming, he will bring with him from heaven all the souls of all obedient believers who have ever died (1 Thessalonians 4:14). And they will descend to the earth where the graves of their bodies are, and their bodies will be resurrected into immortality at that time (1 Thessalonians 4:16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-53, Revelation 20:4-6).

Sometime after the subsequent millennium and the Gog and Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be bodily resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which is the second death (Revelation 21:8). So the people in the lake of fire won't be immortal; they will be in the state of the second death. And yet the people in the lake of fire, though dead, will still be conscious, and will suffer punishment along with Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

Manasseh said in post 4:

there is no such thing as an immortal soul and hell doesn't exist until the lake of fire is prepared and they(the wicked) are cast into it burned up becoming nothing but ashes...

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What's eternally punishing/tormenting (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11) about the hell of Gehenna (Luke 12:5, Greek) is fire eternally burning the body, and worms eternally eating the body (Mark 9:46, Isaiah 66:24). The bodies of the unsaved in Gehenna needn't be natural bodies like people have now, which don't regenerate parts of themselves when those parts are burned or eaten. For before the unsaved are cast into Gehenna (also called the lake of fire), they will be resurrected (Revelation 20:12-15, John 5:29b). And their new, resurrection bodies could eternally regenerate parts of themselves whenever those parts are burned or eaten. But then the regenerated parts could subsequently be burned or eaten again, only to regenerate again, only to be burned or eaten again, and so on forever: an everlasting torment (Revelation 14:10-11).

In Gehenna, the fire won't ever go out (Mark 9:46). It will never run out of fuel, but will continue to punish/torment the unsaved forever (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15). The fact that the fire will already be burning before the resurrection bodies of the unsaved are cast into it (Matthew 25:41, Revelation 20:15) means that their bodies won't be the fire's fuel. The fire will have its own source of fuel by which it will burn/punish/torment the unsaved forever (Revelation 14:10-11, Revelation 20:10,15, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

Bible2 said:

Only the physical bodies of the dead in their graves are euphemistically "asleep" (1 Thessalonians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 15:18,51). And only their dead, physical brains are without any thoughts (Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17, Isaiah 38:18a). For the soul is distinct from the body (1 Thessalonians 5:23). And the soul can remain alive even when the body is dead (Matthew 10:28). And the soul can remain conscious outside of the body, whether the body is still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or has died (Revelation 6:9-10).

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typical reply when attempting to defend the immortal soul false doctrine........"the body dies but the soul doesn't"

men were not made with immortality as part of them, this is a gift from God reserved for the saints and it comes only by Jesus Christ

this word soul and it's true meaning come from the hebrew word nephesh which means a living breathing being..........when you read the word creature and man in the Genesis account they were all called nephesh in the hebrew...........animals don't have "souls" just the same as man doesn't...............they are souls meaning they are living breathing beings , not the definition you attempt to place on them as mortal beings that continue conscious being after death

when souls depart from life they die
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.


souls can been seen and counted

Gen_46:15 These be the sons of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob in Padanaram, with his daughter Dinah: all the souls of his sons and his daughters were thirty and three.
Gen_46:18 These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.
Gen_46:22 These are the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob: all the souls were fourteen.

souls when they stop breathing go back to the dust

Psa_44:25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth.

both righteous and wicked return to the dust

God redeems souls from the grave, not your imaginary hell nor do they come back from heaven (3rd heaven , God's Throne)

PSALMS 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

no one has the power to live on or redeem themselves (soul) from the
grave.............only Christ has this power
PSALMS 89:48 What man [is he that] liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.
JOB 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.
PSALMS 22:29 All [they that be] fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul.

shall I continue............there are a couple hundred more verses I can post........the point is made with those I posted , otherwise there'd be contradictions in scripture, they are clear and explicit, souls go to the grave and require redemption from the grave (resurrection), they do not go to a place with different "compartments as your mythology premise claims

there are no immortal souls to suffer forever in your imaginary hell, the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed, they will cease to be with no more hope of resurrection.............they won't be tortured forever
Psa_7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.
Psa_9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.
Psa_104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.
Psa_145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy

because in another prophecy it's written that the former things are passed away.............to be no more

Manasseh said in post 7:

typical reply when attempting to defend the immortal soul false doctrine........"the body dies but the soul doesn't"

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Matthew 10:28a shows that men can cause the death of the body, but they can't cause the death of the soul, because the soul remains alive even after the death of the body (e.g. Luke 16:22-31).

Manasseh said in post 7:

men were not made with immortality as part of them, this is a gift from God reserved for the saints and it comes only by Jesus Christ

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The unsaved will suffer the second death (Revelation 21:8), which is eternal torment (Matthew 25:41,46).

Manasseh said in post 7:

...they are souls meaning they are living breathing beings , not the definition you attempt to place on them as mortal beings that continue conscious being after death

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Souls can refer to those who are dead, such as the dead martyrs in heaven (Revelation 6:9-11).

Manasseh said in post 7:

when souls depart from life they die
Gen 35:18 And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.

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Genesis 35:18 refers to the death of the body, and the soul departing from the body.

Manasseh said in post 7:

souls can been seen and counted

Gen_46:15 These be the sons of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob in Padanaram, with his daughter Dinah: all the souls of his sons and his daughters were thirty and three.
Gen_46:18 These are the sons of Zilpah, whom Laban gave to Leah his daughter, and these she bare unto Jacob, even sixteen souls.
Gen_46:22 These are the sons of Rachel, which were born to Jacob: all the souls were fourteen.

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Every time the word "souls" is used it doesn't have to refer to dead people (Acts 27:37). For living people consist of a body, a soul, and a spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Manasseh said in post 7:

souls when they stop breathing go back to the dust

Psa_44:25 For our soul is bowed down to the dust: our belly cleaveth unto the earth.

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Psalms 44:25 refers to living people who still have a "belly". It means that their soul is figuratively "cast down" within their bodies (Psalms 42:5-11) because of affliction and oppression (Psalms 44:24-26).

Manasseh said in post 7:

both righteous and wicked return to the dust

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Their dead bodies do.

Manasseh said in post 7:

God redeems souls from the grave, not your imaginary hell nor do they come back from heaven (3rd heaven , God's Throne)

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1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

Manasseh said in post 7:

PSALMS 49:15 But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

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The original Hebrew word (sheol, H7585) translated as "the grave" in Psalms 49:15 and Psalms 89:48 can refer to the extremely deep pit of hell (Isaiah 14:15, Job 11:8, Psalms 30:3).

Manasseh said in post 7:

PSALMS 89:48 What man [is he that] liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.

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Psalms 89:48 and Psalms 22:29b mean that no man can keep himself alive forever. They aren't contradicting the fact that some believers will never die (1 Corinthians 15:51-53, John 11:26).

Manasseh said in post 7:

JOB 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.

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In Job 33:22, the original Hebrew word (shachath, H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit that's in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9,10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3).

Manasseh said in post 7:

. . . the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed, they will cease to be with no more hope of resurrection...

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Regarding "destroyed", are you thinking of Matthew 10:28b? If so, "destroy" doesn't have to mean annihilate. For the original Greek word (apollumi, G0622) can be used to refer to something simply being ruined (Mark 2:22), yet still existing in its ruined state (Mark 9:45-46).

Manasseh said in post 7:

. . . the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed, they will cease to be with no more hope of resurrection...

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Regarding "they will cease to be", note that no scripture requires that.

Manasseh said in post 7:

. . . the wicked will be cast into the lake of fire and destroyed, they will cease to be with no more hope of resurrection...

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Regarding "with no more hope of resurrection", note that those who will be cast into the lake of fire will be resurrected before they're cast into it (Revelation 20:12-15).

Manasseh said in post 7:

...they won't be tortured forever

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They will be (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

Manasseh said in post 7:

Psa_7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.

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Psalms 7:9 doesn't mean that the wicked themselves will cease to exist, but that eventually they won't be committing wickedness any more.

Manasseh said in post 7:

Psa_9:5 Thou hast rebuked the heathen, thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name for ever and ever.

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In Psalms 9:5, the original Hebrew word (abad, H0006) translated as "destroy" doesn't have to been annihilate. Compare its translation as "broken" in Psalms 31:12, which refers to a "broken" vessel which continues to exist in its broken state.

Psalms 9:5 doesn't mean that the wicked themselves will cease to exist, but that eventually they won't be admired any more. The original Hebrew word (shem, H8034) translated as their "name" can mean their "fame" (cf. 1 Chronicles 12:30).

Manasseh said in post 7:

Psa_104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

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Psalms 104:35a is only what the human writer of Psalms 104 hopes will happen (Psalms 104:34-35), not something that God will actually cause to happen. Instead, God will cause the unsaved to continue to exist forever on the new earth, in the torment of the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:22-24, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).

Manasseh said in post 7:

Psa_145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy

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In Psalms 145:20, the original Hebrew word (shamad, H8045) translated as "destroy" doesn't have to been annihilate. Compare its translation as "perished" in Psalms 83:9-10, which refers to "perished" bodies which continued to exist.

Manasseh said in post 7:

because in another prophecy it's written that the former things are passed away.............to be no more

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Revelation 21:4 means that all former unpleasant things will have passed away for saved people, not that former pleasant things, like the righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit that saved people have now (Romans 14:17) will have passed away.

Also, Revelation 21:4 doesn't mean that former unpleasant things (like suffering) will have passed away for unsaved people. For that verse is followed by Revelation 21:8 (and Revelation 22:15). And the suffering of the unsaved in the lake of fire won't pass away (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

Bible2 said:

Matthew 10:28a shows that men can cause the death of the body, but they can't cause the death of the soul, because the soul remains alive even after the death of the body (e.g. Luke 16:22-31).



The unsaved will suffer the second death (Revelation 21:8), which is eternal torment (Matthew 25:41,46).



Souls can refer to those who are dead, such as the dead martyrs in heaven (Revelation 6:9-11).



Genesis 35:18 refers to the death of the body, and the soul departing from the body.



Every time the word "souls" is used it doesn't have to refer to dead people (Acts 27:37). For living people consist of a body, a soul, and a spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23).



Psalms 44:25 refers to living people who still have a "belly". It means that their soul is figuratively "cast down" within their bodies (Psalms 42:5-11) because of affliction and oppression (Psalms 44:24-26).



Their dead bodies do.



1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).



The original Hebrew word (sheol, H7585) translated as "the grave" in Psalms 49:15 and Psalms 89:48 can refer to the extremely deep pit of hell (Isaiah 14:15, Job 11:8, Psalms 30:3).



Psalms 89:48 and Psalms 22:29b mean that no man can keep himself alive forever. They aren't contradicting the fact that some believers will never die (1 Corinthians 15:51-53, John 11:26).



In Job 33:22, the original Hebrew word (shachath, H7845) translated as "the grave" can be translated as "the pit" (Job 33:28,30), meaning the extremely deep pit that's in hell/sheol (Isaiah 14:15, Psalms 30:3, Job 11:8), in the sides of which pit are the graves of the conscious souls of the unsaved dead (Isaiah 14:15,9,10, Ezekiel 32:21-23), who experience pain there (Psalms 116:3).



Regarding "destroyed", are you thinking of Matthew 10:28b? If so, "destroy" doesn't have to mean annihilate. For the original Greek word (apollumi, G0622) can be used to refer to something simply being ruined (Mark 2:22), yet still existing in its ruined state (Mark 9:45-46).



Regarding "they will cease to be", note that no scripture requires that.



Regarding "with no more hope of resurrection", note that those who will be cast into the lake of fire will be resurrected before they're cast into it (Revelation 20:12-15).



They will be (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).



Psalms 7:9 doesn't mean that the wicked themselves will cease to exist, but that eventually they won't be committing wickedness any more.



In Psalms 9:5, the original Hebrew word (abad, H0006) translated as "destroy" doesn't have to been annihilate. Compare its translation as "broken" in Psalms 31:12, which refers to a "broken" vessel which continues to exist in its broken state.

Psalms 9:5 doesn't mean that the wicked themselves will cease to exist, but that eventually they won't be admired any more. The original Hebrew word (shem, H8034) translated as their "name" can mean their "fame" (cf. 1 Chronicles 12:30).



Psalms 104:35a is only what the human writer of Psalms 104 hopes will happen (Psalms 104:34-35), not something that God will actually cause to happen. Instead, God will cause the unsaved to continue to exist forever on the new earth, in the torment of the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:22-24, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11).



In Psalms 145:20, the original Hebrew word (shamad, H8045) translated as "destroy" doesn't have to been annihilate. Compare its translation as "perished" in Psalms 83:9-10, which refers to "perished" bodies which continued to exist.



Revelation 21:4 means that all former unpleasant things will have passed away for saved people, not that former pleasant things, like the righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit that saved people have now (Romans 14:17) will have passed away.

Also, Revelation 21:4 doesn't mean that former unpleasant things (like suffering) will have passed away for unsaved people. For that verse is followed by Revelation 21:8 (and Revelation 22:15). And the suffering of the unsaved in the lake of fire won't pass away (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45-46).

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Just surprised at your usage and understanding of what 'soul' means here, and also 'Sheol'.

What do you understand by 'soul' to mean?

Greetings,
I'm a newbie of this site but not of the Faith. The Topic of Hell has been with me for all of my life. Growing up in a Southern Baptist church many years a go the Doctrine of Eternal Torment was taught. I believed in this doctrine for a long time until I started really digging into the scriptures to find out more on the subject. Bottom line is the scripture never states a Biblical fact that the unbeliever will recieve an immortal body one day to suffer eternal torment. Only the believer will be ressurected into an immortal state. The Eternal torment lie is of the Devil; its the same ole lie presented to Eve in the Garden of eden. Eat of this tree and you shall not surely die. Anyway look forward to posting more on the site. God bless

Bible2 said:

Matthew 10:28a shows that men can cause the death of the body, but they can't cause the death of the soul, because the soul remains alive even after the death of the body (e.g. Luke 16:22-31).



The unsaved will suffer the second death (Revelation 21:8), which is eternal torment (Matthew 25:41,46).

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you took the verses I gave as evidence and attempted to change their meanings.........I showed that souls die, that they go to the grave ,that they can be seen and counted, ie that they are mortal and subject to death , you simply ignore and reject what these verses teach, in addition your misrepresentation of the verses you use as your proof text

once again you whole premise of everlasting torment is based on the first premise of the immortal soul doctrine which is false and scripture does not teach this, the soul that sinneth it shall DIE so says God's word and reminding you again that God does not offer immortality to the wicked............they are destroyed, not given eternal life so they can be tormented forever

no need to take this further since you have already rejected a number of verses given and continue your attempt to defend your false doctrine...............according to God's word it cannot be defended

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

notice the word soul, it's the same hebrew word used in Genesis (nephesh) for Adam, created a living breathing being, not an immortal soul................and it says it shall die....................

but I'm sure you won't concede what this verse simply says and you'll find a way to change it's meaning to suit your false doctrine

mog144 said:

Hell is literal, and here on Earth for the flesh to be rewarded for their works in the flesh. God is just, and the flesh is Judged on it's own terms. God must send a man in flesh to become like those being Judged so that they may be Judged fairly and on their own terms but under God's Laws and not man's. This said, you better start looking for His Son in the flesh.

This is what will come...

The Japanese Islands that are in dispute are being disputed by God and satan, and it's because satan wants to prevent hell from coming.

The natural mind has no real clue as to why they debate this, albeit they have other reasons in their Gentile mind.

The Japanese Islands will be the two Jurassic Parks for the wicked because they are beasts in God's Eye, and they will devour one another as they are hunted as food; the hunter becomes the hunted. The North island is where the sheep will be placed naked and without food nor water, they will eat each other for survival, only the strong will survive until they too are consumed by the hell fire that will burn with fervent heat and radioactive wastes.

Remember when God said that the wicked will stand naked in front of the world at Judgment? It's literal, they are stripped of every Earthly possessions and even their clothing. Their riches will be divided among the poor.

The South island is for the goats, who are females, while the North are males. God will not allow them to cleave, one to another, still. They will always be Iron and Clay.

The large space between the N and S island is where God's people will clean up the USA and dump all of the wicked people's dung that they have created that opposes God. All Nuclear missals will be disarmed and dismantled and dumped on the islands along with automobiles, toxic wastes, oils, fuels, chemicals and all that is contaminating our soils.

Then the fire is lit and the fire blazes hotter than anything ever seen before in history, and the smoke of their torment will billow into the heavens and circumference the Earth so that every living eye shall see it so to be a reminder of God's Judgment. The time that it takes to clean up will be long and take much effort and this is only after God overthrows every law and it's maker in the USA.

God will Establish His Kingdom here in this promised land that was promised to a revived Gentile nation. God starts here in America where the Antichrist rules and then the rest of the world will see the blessings of God and how His people are living high in prosperity because God is with them. The world will be also divided as they too are Judged and separated for the hell or heaven.

We will live on this planet Earth from one generation to the next for Eternity in the Promised Land. The Jews lost this and God handed their treasures over to the Gentiles once they are grafted into the Vine of His Blood and Spiritual artery system.

God's people will no longer be like Iron and Clay but rather like Mercury as they will be ONE in Christ and without seams.

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Heaven and Hell is not a physical place.. with a physical location.. they are both everywhere.. it depends on the individual...

Glory To God

Hell is simply rendered the grave in both the old and new testimont; people add to the text to imply eternal torment. Also an Eternal God is omnipresent which he is everywhere which means he would have to be in lake of fire forever if this was an everlasting punishment. The punishment for a lost soul is spritual death/Seprariton from God. The only way to be seperated from God is to die and never have a living soul again. The Scriptures are so plain and easy to grasp; we as sinful people for centuries now have made the scripture complicated by trying to incorporate are own ideas from the text. My hope is in Jesus christ who died on the cross was burried and raised on the third day and will eventually give me a immortal state one day...

'Nephesh' should never be translated as 'soul' and 'Sheol' should never be translated as 'Hell'.

Mikecpking said:

'Nephesh' should never be translated as 'soul' and 'Sheol' should never be translated as 'Hell'.

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to clarify , it's not............the english word soul and it's meaning in scripture must be defined according to the original hebrew and greek words used...........the hebrew simply meaning a living breathing being..........animals are called nephesh also in Genesis..........the greek word psuche can imply 2 meanings.............first breath, again like the hebrew a breathing being...........and spirit.............implying that God breathed life into Adam which made him a living breathing being............of which Solomon said returns to God when men die

the KJV really does a dis-service by using hell everywhere because the hebrew and greek words have different meanings

Sheol and hades mean the grave
Tartaroos.............used only one time in the NT meaning the restraint the fallen angels are kept in
and Geheena.............coming from the Hebrew Ge Ben Hinnom or valley of Hinnom............which most everyone knows was a refuse dump outside the city where perpetual fires were kept up to burn all kinds of refuse.................this example Christ used to depict the lake of fire

scripture is always clear as pertaining to men (souls), death and the grave and that there is no conscious being in the grave

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Isa 38:18 For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

and many more similar verses...............

Manasseh said in post 11:

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die.

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Ezekiel 18:20 is referring to the 2nd death, not the first death. For Matthew 10:28a shows that men can cause the first death of the body, but they can't cause the death of the soul, because the soul remains alive even after the first death of the body (e.g. Luke 16:22-31). Sometime after the future millennium and Gog/Magog rebellion are over (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the souls in Hades will be bodily resurrected, judged, and cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:12-15), which will be the 2nd death (Revelation 21:8). This will be the death of both their resurrected bodies and their souls (Matthew 10:28). And yet, even though they will be dead in both body and soul, their spirits, which are distinct from their bodies and souls (1 Thessalonians 5:23), will remain conscious, and will be tormented along with the spirits of Satan and his fallen angels forever (Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11, Matthew 25:41,46, Mark 9:45b-46, Isaiah 66:24).

Jabicson said in post 17:

it's simple enough to put it in simple terms--the soul is 2 parts as a symbol of the 2 witnesses--one is spirit and other is flesh, and not to say there isn't a lot more as other guys are saying.

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Regarding "the 2 witnesses", in Revelation 11:3-12 the two witnesses could be Moses and Elijah. For the two men seen "standing before the God of the earth" (Revelation 11:4) at the transfiguration were Moses and Elijah (Matthew 17:3). And in Revelation 11:4. the "two olive trees" refer back to the two men who were already standing by the Lord by the time of the prophet Zechariah (Zechariah 4:11,14), which was subsequent to the times of Moses and Elijah.

Moses and Elijah could come down from heaven in their mortal bodies at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, just as they came down at the transfiguration. Also, the plagues that the two witnesses will cause (Revelation 11:6,5) will match plagues that Moses and Elijah caused in Old Testament times (James 5:17, Exodus 7:20; 2 Kings 1:10-14). Elijah never died, but was taken bodily into heaven (2 Kings 2:11b). And Michael retrieved Moses' dead body from Satan (Jude 1:9). Michael could have then taken Moses' body into heaven, where it could have been resuscitated back to mortal life, like, for example, Lazarus' dead body was resuscitated back to mortal life (John 12:1). This would explain how both Moses and Elijah could appear alive and well at the transfiguration (Matthew 17:3).

The two witnesses will prophesy and bring plagues on the world during the future, literal 3.5 years (Revelation 11:2b,3,6) of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 12:6,14), which will be in the latter half of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. That's why the Antichrist's reign will legally end (Revelation 11:15) right after the time of the two witnesses on the earth will end (Revelation 11:12-15). The plagues that they will bring (Revelation 11:6) will be part of the tribulation's 2nd woe/6th trumpet (Revelation 11:14, Revelation 9:12-13). They will be taken up to heaven before the tribulation's 7th trumpet sounds (Revelation 11:12,15).

They may not be witnesses in the sense of evangelizing the world (Acts 1:8), for the original Greek word (martus, G3144) translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can also refer to those who witness against people and bring punishment against them (Acts 7:58). The reason that there will be two witnesses (Revelation 11:3) who will bring plagues to torment the unrepentant world (Revelation 11:6,10b) would be because two witnesses are required to bring judgment against people (1 Timothy 5:19). At the same time, the two "witnesses" could be called that because both of them will be martyred (Revelation 11:7-9). For the same Greek word translated as "witnesses" (Revelation 11:3) can refer to "martyrs" (Revelation 17:6).

Jabicson said in post 17:

if you take any component away from the soul it dies, but the trick here is that the living flesh may die in spirit when God is removed and then they are born again in another but at this current time in prophecy it cant be a true conversion when the world is under the strong delusion and this then is debated to steer it off course even more.

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Regarding "the strong delusion", are you thinking of 2 Thessalonians 2:11: "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie"? If so, the Antichrist will have a False Prophet who will work amazing miracles by which people will be deceived (Revelation 13:12-14, Revelation 19:20, cf. Matthew 24:24). And God will send strong delusion on unrepentant people so that they will believe "the" lie (2 Thessalonians 2:11-12; in the original Greek there's a "the" before "lie"), which could be the antichrist lie that has been around since the first century AD (2 John 1:7; 1 John 4:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:7a), and which in the future will deceive the world into worshipping both Lucifer (Satan) the dragon and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the man of sin (2 Thessalonians 2:3-9), as God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). The antichrist lie denies that Jesus is the Christ and/or the human/divine Son of God (1 John 2:22), and/or denies that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7), which denial is one of the key doctrines of Gnosticism.

Jabicson said in post 17:

if a person had the false christ in their temple-self- --then they are alive in that spirit and are offspring of satan.

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Regarding "the false christ in their temple-self", are you thinking of 2 Thessalonians 2:4? If so, that verse, like Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, and Daniel 11:31,36, refers to a literal, 3rd Jewish temple building, which will exist in the earthly Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will coexist with the church like the 2nd temple building did (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and like the temple building in heaven does (Revelation 11:19). The 3rd temple could be built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount by the ultra-Orthodox Jews after they (or great earthquakes) clear the site by destroying the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque. Shortly after they build it, the Antichrist could attack and defeat them and a false Messiah leading them (Daniel 11:22).

Then the Antichrist could "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false "Messiah" (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23a), permitting them to keep the temple, and to continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of it, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. The ultra-Orthodox Jews could grudgingly agree to this, if the only other option is for them to lose the temple entirely. They could then build a high wall between the temple and the mosque, in order to keep the temple from being defiled.

But then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 9:27b, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

At the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45) and the world's armies will pillage Jerusalem right before Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21). And at the 2nd coming there will be tremendous earth changes in the vicinity of Jerusalem (Zechariah 14:4-5). These events could result in all of Jerusalem's structures, including the 3rd temple and the Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall), being broken down so that not one stone will be left on another (Luke 19:44, Matthew 24:2). Then the returned Jesus (Zechariah 14:4, Acts 1:11-12) will rebuild Jerusalem and make it the capital of the world (Zechariah 14:8-19, Micah 4:1-4). He will also build a 4th temple there (Zechariah 14:20-21, Zechariah 6:12-13). It will serve a similar function for the church during the future millennium (of Revelation 20:4-6) as the 2nd temple served for the church in the first century AD (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17) and as the temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19) serves for those in heaven (Revelation 7:15).

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One reason that the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.

Something that could bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to this point would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in East Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (or simply clear way their rubble, if they've already been destroyed by great earthquakes by that time).

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could tip the scales toward this happening would be the rising up of a false, miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

Something else that could help tip the scales regarding the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (for example, "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see the discovery of the Ark as (in their words) "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

Jabicson said in post 17:

so this then depends on what spirit you are talking about in your comment.

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The spirit in 1 Thessalonians 5:23 is "your" spirit, that is, the unique human spirit within each individual human (1 Corinthians 6:20, Galatians 6:18, Philemon 1:25).

Jabicson said in post 17:

my perspective of prophecy says that the saving gospel comes to save a dying world that was starved for truth and all fell short-means they had the mark of the beast and they are resurrected from that dead state in living flesh, they are alive or dead but they live only after the saving gospel comes in the end.

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Regarding "the mark of the beast" (Revelation 13:16-17, Revelation 16:2), it will be a literal, physical mark which will be visible to people, so they can easily tell (in every situation, even one without electricity) whether or not someone should be permitted to buy or sell (Revelation 13:17). It will be visible also because the original Greek of Revelation 13:16 shows that the mark will be placed only "on" (epi), not inside, people's right hands or foreheads. Also, it will be placed on people probably by scarification. For in Revelation 13:16, one of the definitions of the original Greek word (charagma, G5480) translated as the "mark" is "a scratch or etching" (Strong's Greek Dictionary), and scarification is the scratching or etching (i.e. the cutting) of the skin to leave a permanent mark. The reason people will be given the mark in Revelation 13:16, in the context of what had been shown just previously in Revelation 13:4,8,15, will be to serve as a visible indicator to other people that they're loyal worshippers of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9) and of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and his image (Revelation 13:4,8,15), just as some Luciferians today put a mark on themselves by scarification.

The mark will consist of only the Antichrist's name "or" some representation of the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17-18), meaning that the mark will be the Antichrist's name for some people and a representation of the gematrial number of his name for other people. And the mark will be placed only on the right hand (probably on the palm) "or" on the forehead (Revelation 13:16), meaning that it will be placed on the right hand of some people and on the forehead of other people.

Those who refuse to receive the Antichrist's mark won't be allowed to buy or sell anything (Revelation 13:17), and they will be executed by being beheaded if they refuse to worship the Antichrist and his image (Revelation 13:15, Revelation 20:4). Christians must be willing to suffer this fate rather than agree to receive the Antichrist's mark or worship him or his image, for those who agree to do those things (even if they're Christians) will suffer God's wrath in fire and brimstone forever (Revelation 14:9-13), whereas those Christians who refuse to do those things, even though they will be beheaded, will subsequently be physically resurrected into immortality (along with the rest of the obedient church of all times) at Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 20:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,52-58). And even before their resurrection, at the moment of their death, their still-conscious souls will be brought into the presence of Jesus in heaven (cf. 2 Corinthians 5:8, Philippians 1:21,23, Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 23:43,46).

In the future, when the world begins to worship the Antichrist as God (Revelation 13:8; 2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36), some people could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their right palm, just as lovers in the past were sometimes known to have their loved ones' initials placed by scarification on their palm (cf. also Isaiah 49:16, Jeremiah 48:37, Leviticus 19:28, Leviticus 21:5). Other of the Antichrist's worshippers could gladly be willing to have his name placed by scarification on their forehead, thinking (mistakenly) that they're fulfilling the Christian idea of Revelation 22:4, which refers to the future point in time when Jesus will put God's name visibly on the forehead of obedient Christians (Revelation 3:12). The Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet, who will be the one to cause everyone to be marked with the Antichrist's mark (Revelation 13:16-18), could even convince people that he (the False Prophet) is Jesus returned (but he won't say that he's the Christ, for he and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7).

Instead of having the Antichrist's name engraved on their right hand or forehead, some of his worshippers will have the gematrial number of his name (666) (Revelation 13:17c-18) engraved on their right hand or forehead. But because some people could refuse to have "666" placed on their body, in order to make a mark of 666 acceptable to all people, it could be disguised to look like something else in those cases where people demand something other than "666". For example, it could be disguised in some cases to look like "777", or "111", or "WWW", or "VVV", or "|| || ||", or "FFF". For the 6th letter of the ancient Hebrew alphabet (Vav) represents the number 6, but it looks like a "7", or a "1", and it's transliterated into English as either a "W" or a "V". Also, two thin vertical lines "||" represent the number 6 on many UPC codes. And the letter "F" has a numerical value of 6 in English gematria.

In an awful coincidence (or maybe it's not just a coincidence), "FFF" also stands for an extremely powerful type of nuclear bomb: Fission-Fusion-Fission. Could this be the type of bomb that the 10 kings of the Antichrist's empire will employ to burn up the cities of the world at the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Revelation 17:12,16,17a, Revelation 16:19, Revelation 19:2,11)?

The "WWW" which has been placed on many web addresses, and the "|| || ||" which has been placed across many UPC codes on products (i.e. they have a "||" at the beginning, middle, and end of their UPC codes), are harbingers of when Lucifer will give the Antichrist ownership of everything on the earth (Revelation 13:2b; cf. Luke 4:7), and of the Antichrist placing his "brand" on everything, like a rancher places his "brand" on all his cattle. For both "WWW" and "|| || ||" are disguised representations of the gematrial number of the Antichrist's name: 666 (Revelation 13:17c-18). But Revelation 13:16 isn't fulfilled by some web addresses having "WWW", nor by some products having "|| || ||" on their UPC codes, for Revelation 13:16 refers only to when people will be given the Antichrist's mark, either on their right hand or forehead.

Those assigned to have the mark placed on their forehead (instead of on their right hand) (Revelation 13:16) could be an elite, illumined, cognoscenti class of Gnostic Luciferians who alone will have been given knowledge of the ultimate secrets of the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism. The Antichrist will be both a Luciferian, a worshipper of Lucifer/Satan the dragon (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9), and a Gnostic, someone who denies that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3), and forbids marriage and the eating of meat (1 Timothy 4:1-3). The cream of his cognoscenti could be a faux 144,000, consisting of male virgins (as a counterfeit of Revelation 14:4) who have never eaten meat. If they receive on their forehead the mark of the Antichrist's name (instead of a representation of the number of his name) (Revelation 13:17), this will be as a counterfeit of YHWH's 144,000 in Revelation 14:1. But the Antichrist won't pretend that he's YHWH, just as he won't pretend that he's Christ. Instead, as a Gnostic, he will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And his Gnostic denial that Christ is in the flesh (1 John 4:3) will disqualify him (under his mistaken Gnostic doctrine) from being the Christ.

Jabicson said in post 17:

may i ask, when did the everlasting gospel get here and why are we still here?

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Regarding "when did the everlasting gospel get here", are you thinking of Revelation 14:6-7? If so, that's the gospel which Jesus and the apostles preached in the first century AD (e.g. Matthew 10:28, Romans 11:20-22, Romans 15:6), and which is recorded in the New Testament.

That is, it's the gospel of our salvation (Ephesians 1:13), which is the good news that we can be initially saved by believing that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 20:31, John 3:36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose from the dead on the third day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

And the gospel is that we can be ultimately saved if we continue to believe this to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23), and continue to perform good works of faith to the end (Romans 2:6-8; 1 Thessalonians 1:3), and repent from any sin that we might commit to the end (Hebrews 10:26-29), and get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus (Mark 16:16, Romans 6:3-11), and partake of Jesus' divine flesh and blood in the bread and wine of communion (John 6:53; 1 Corinthians 11:23-30), and forgive everyone for everything (Matthew 6:14-15), and do all that we can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom we've ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26), and help Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46), and provide for our families (1 Timothy 5:8), and don't blaspheme the Spirit (Mark 3:29), and don't remove words from the book of Revelation (Revelation 22:19), and don't worship the future Antichrist or his image or willingly receive his mark (Revelation 14:9-12), and continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:22), and overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26).

Jabicson said in post 17:

may i ask, when did the everlasting gospel get here and why are we still here?

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Regarding "why are we still here?", are you thinking of the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture of the church into the 3rd heaven? If so, note that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That's why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the bodily resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there's a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Jabicson said in post 17:

and how does this play out in the timeline of current world events?

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The tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which Jesus will return immediately after (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6) hasn't started yet. It will begin with a horrible war, which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world (Revelation 6:4-8). The "great sword" of this war (Revelation 6:4) could be Israel's nuclear weapons.

One way that this war could happen is the U.S. could build up the Iraqi Army until it's huge enough and well-equipped enough to serve as a proxy army, for the U.S. and Israel, for an all-out ground invasion of Iran, in order to end Iran's nuclear weapons program and extremist regime. As part of the buildup of the Iraqi Army, the U.S. could reinstall some of the former Baathist military hierarchy to run the Iraqi Army more efficiently and ruthlessly. And if the current Shiite-dominated government of Iraq balks at any invasion of fellow-Shiite Iran, this could lead the CIA, the Mossad, and possibly also (Sunni Arab) Saudi Intelligence, to bring about a Baathist coup d'etat in Iraq. For all three of these intelligence agencies would love for Iraq to attack their common mortal foe Iran, and the Iraqi Baathists could agree to do this, for they see non-Arab Iran as a great enemy of Arab autonomy.

To help get the Iraqi masses and the world behind the idea of an all-out Iraqi invasion of Iran, false-flag operations could be managed by the CIA and the Mossad by which it will be made to seem that (non-Arab, Persian) Iran is attacking the Iraqi Sunni Arabs and their little children terroristically with "dirty bombs" made from Iranian-enriched uranium, so that the Iraqi Arab masses will become enraged and begin to call for all-out retaliation against (what they could call) "the vile Persians". And the world could see an Iraqi invasion of Iran as being completely justified by self-defense.

But then, right when Iraq is all ready to invade Iran, the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel (who by that time could be led by a false Messiah) could destroy the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest sites in Islam) on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, to prepare the site for the building of a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). This could so enrage Muslims worldwide, including the (Muslim) Iraqi Army, that the Iraqi Baathist Generals could see it as a perfect excuse to abandon the plan to invade huge Iran, and instead (pretending that they're doing so in the name of Islam) turn and send their vast army against the little territory of Israel, completely defeating it (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17, the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

But this wouldn't be the ultimate reason for the Baathist attack, which could continue on south to also defeat and occupy Egypt (Daniel 11:15). For even though there has been some ostensible change in Egypt, the U.S.-supported Egyptian Army remains in ultimate control, so that the Baathists could see the Egyptian regime as still being a puppet of the U.S., just as they could see Israel as being a colony of the U.S. Baathism's ultimate aim is to unite all Arab lands from Oman to Morocco into one massive, powerful United Arab States free of all foreign hegemony.

The all-out Iraqi attack on Israel could be joined by the entire (Baathist) Syrian Army (with all of its missiles, many tipped with nerve agents), as well as by all of Iran's long-range missiles and all of Hezbollah's and Hamas' missiles and guerrillas. Israel could find itself suddenly attacked from three directions at the same time, with tens of thousands of missiles raining down on its cities and military bases, and tens of thousands of Iraqi tanks (meant to defeat and occupy huge Iran) pouring across its borders. As Israel starts to see its little sliver of land completely overrun, and sees that its total defeat is imminent and assured, in retaliation it could drop nuclear bombs on Baghdad, Damascus (Isaiah 17:1), Tehran, and other major cities of Iraq, Syria, and Iran.

There could be so many nuclear explosions sending so much radioactive dust and ash so high into the atmosphere that it could be blown eastward and fall on hugely-populated South Asia, ruining so many crop fields and immune systems there with radiation that 1/4 of the world's population could end up dying from the war and its aftermath of famines and epidemics (Revelation 6:4-8). This war could be blamed not only on the "religious fundamentalism" of Islam and Judaism, but also on religious fundamentalism in general, and so could lead to a worldwide crusade against all forms of religious fundamentalism, including Christian fundamentalism, that is, the (correct) idea that the Bible is wholly true (2 Timothy 3:16, Matthew 4:4) and that all other religions are cursed (Galatians 1:8-9, John 14:6, John 3:36, Acts 4:12).

After an Iraqi Baathist General who could lead the defeat and occupation of Israel and Egypt mysteriously disappears from the scene (Daniel 11:19), the Antichrist, who could be an Arab, could arise peacefully out of Lebanon (from the modern city of Tyre: Ezekiel 28:2; cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:4), and he could take up the mantle of Baathism and vow to (in his words) "complete the great work of Arab liberation and unification". The first thing that the Antichrist could do once he's given control (Daniel 11:21) of a Baathist confederation of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, and a "United Palestine" (i.e. a defeated Israel), is to perform a small and localized attack against an army of ultra-Orthodox Jews holed up in the walled Old City of Jerusalem and led by a false, ultra-Orthodox Jewish Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:22). They could have managed to hold off the first Baathist attack even as it overran the rest of Israel, because the walled Old City of Jerusalem is considered holy to the Muslims, and so it's not to be bombarded or destroyed. The Antichrist could manage in some way to take the Old City without doing it much harm.

Then, instead of executing all the ultra-Orthodox Jews and their false Messiah, the Antichrist will do an amazing thing. He will "cut" a peace treaty with them and their false Messiah (Daniel 9:26a, Daniel 11:23), permitting them to keep a 3rd Jewish temple (Revelation 11:1) which they will have built on the Temple Mount in the Old City of Jerusalem, and to keep control of the Old City, for at least 7 more years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims so that the Muslims can rebuild the Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. By this peace treaty, the Antichrist could present himself to the world as (in his words): "A reasonable man, a man of peace. I am no Hitler. I do not desire a second Holocaust. I am willing to give the religious Jews in the Old City seven years to show that they are willing to live peacefully with others, that they are different than the Zionist Jews who have just destroyed the world with their nuclear weapons".

And if the Antichrist gets flak from his fellow Baathists for letting the ultra-Orthodox Jews keep the Old City of Jerusalem, he could explain to them privately that (in his words) "It's all a temporary ruse, meant to keep world opinion off guard while we consolidate our position". The Baathists could consolidate their position by becoming so well dug-in, and so well equipped and advised militarily by the Russians (in the name of "Arab self-determination"), that a U.S. counter-attack to "restore" (i.e. to take back) Israel and Egypt could fail, and leave the Baathists in control, and in a position to extend their power over all the rest of the Arab nations. For if the Baathists defeat Israel, they will be hailed by the Arab masses as magnificent heroes, so that the Baathists could have no problem persuading the Arab masses to support them. And the Baathists could justify their defeat of the Egyptian military regime, and then their subsequent defeat of other regimes such as in Jordan, by railing against them as being (what they could call):

"These vile cronies of the Americans. These cronies pretended to be for the Arab people while in fact they were taking American bribes in the billions, completely selling out our Palestinian brothers to the endless cruelties of the Zionist occupation, and keeping you, the great majority of the Arab people, in poverty. These cronies, like the Zionists themselves, were the American bulwarks against our glorious Arab unification and return to world power. Join now with us, the Baathists, that we might bring about the long-awaited Arab Renaissance, the long-awaited Arab Resurrection [the Arab word 'Baath' can mean 'Renaissance' and 'Resurrection'], that we Arabs might all rise up together and unite, from Oman to Morocco, into one great United Arab States, one great Arab Empire, shaking off completely all the shackles of the West, placed upon us so long ago, and return to our former glory as we had during the Middle Ages, when we were free and far superior to the West".

The Baathists could also rail against the kings and sheikhs of the Arab Gulf States for (in their words) "hoarding the huge oil wealth given by Allah to all the Arabs, and keeping the Arab masses in poverty and subjugation to Western interests". The Baathists are socialist, and so could call for the distribution of the Arab oil wealth to the Arab masses (Daniel 11:24). In this way, and by their defeat of Israel, the Baathists could easily turn the masses to their side in every Arab nation.

During the first few years of the 7-year peace treaty referred to earlier, the Antichrist could employ Baathism as the means by which he will gradually and peacefully put together a United Arab States, or Arab Union, stretching from Oman to Morocco. Once he has accomplished this, he could then begin to downplay Baathism and start speaking of "world peace and the unity of mankind". He could convince an oil-thirsty European Union to let the oil-rich Arab Union join it, thereby forming a massive Mediterranean Union, which he could manage to peacefully gain control of and use as his base of power to eventually exert his hegemony over the entire earth (Revelation 13:7b).

Then, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty, the Antichrist will break it, attack the 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices offered in front of it, and sit in the temple and proclaim himself God (Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). He will then rule the whole earth by the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon: Revelation 12:9) for 3.5 literal years (Revelation 13:4-18, Daniel 7:25, Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:14), or 1,260 literal days (Revelation 12:6). The return of Jesus Christ from heaven (Matthew 24:30, Revelation 19:11-21; 1 Thessalonians 4:16) may not occur immediately after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign are over, but could occur 75 days later, on the 1,335th day after the Antichrist and his followers set up the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15). The 75 days could be taken up by the vials of God's wrath which will be poured out on the Antichrist's worshippers (Revelation 16).

When Jesus returns, he will completely defeat the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 19:20; 2 Thessalonians 2:8-9), and he will have Satan bound in the bottomless pit (Revelation 20:1-3). Then the returned Jesus and the bodily resurrected church (including those in the church who had been beheaded by the Antichrist) will reign physically on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:8-21).

Jabicson said in post 21:

i believe we will be struck by a solar cme . . .

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That may not happen until the 7 vials (Revelation 16).

The world won't experience the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the last stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the first vial, an awful sore will appear on only those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the unsaved armies of the world to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they've gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).