Tomorrow 10:00 am (Gay Marriage legal everywhere)

Desk trauma said:

I do not have any children, nor will I, but were I to have children I would want them to leed lives that are fulfilling to them rather then have them form their lives around my desires for grandchildren or any other thing. They are progeny, not property.

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Nailed it right on the head. As parents, it should be a foremost to have your children lead lives that are fulfilling to them, as long as their state of well being is not changed negatively by their actions. And is in no way shape or form, being gay a negative.

*bling post*

Boondock_Saint said:

Am I right, or am I right?

I beleive the constitution gives gays the right to marry each other.

But...
What America needs is family. Family has broken down. If America will be great again, we need the family. I can't wait till I marry my girl and start a family. I can begin to rebuild America the way she should be. Happy, moral, and God centered.

Or maybe my kids should watch inappropriate content, be gay, and drink till their happy. Is that what we really want? Or do we want grandchildren who are better than we are.

Loving your children is not the same as being happy for them.

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Gay marriage will not affect existing families or families to come. Marriage is marriage. Families are a different issue. Instead of people stressing about gay people raising children why not concentrate on the travesties that are already happening in households around the western world that are not beneficial to children such as being beaten, abused, explosed to alcohol and substance abuse, etc.

Also...it is pretty insulting to see being gay be put in the same category as inappropriate content and substance abuse.

denominator said:

There are many reasons to wait to get married. I can't speak for Boondock_Saint, but in my case my girlfriend and I want to wait until we are more financially secure, both have finished school, and own a house. But I still don't see what any of this has to do with gay marriage.

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Different topic, but those are reasons to hold off on children, not for a couple on their late 20s to hold off on marriage.

SolomonVII said:

For yourself, they are figments of your imagination, and hypothetical arguments, and that is all they ever will be.

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Here's a non-hypothetical: I don't want any children, nor will I ever have any. My parents would like me to have children, yet they realize that it's not right to insist that I do, because they want me to be happy.

SolomonVII said:

For yourself, they are figments of your imagination, and hypothetical arguments, and that is all they ever will be.

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Too bad the same can't be said for religious bigots.

I'd rather have someone project in raising a good child than someone who has children raising them to be bigots just like their parents. And when they call God in on their side it makes the fracture for the future even more apparent for the idolatry that is manufactured in the name of the God that created Gays in his image and likeness, just like everyone else!

When sin is said to be the excuse children should be implanted to believe as righteous cause to hate gays, in the name of Christ, the world would be better off if it were those parents who elected not to spread their genes.

Boondock_Saint said:

So you don't want your children to drink and watch inappropriate content, but you don't care about any grandchildren?

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Contrary to popular belief gay couples can have and raise children using alternative methods such as adoption, sperm donors etc.

Side note, I dont think populating the earth is an issue to be concerned with right now. If anything we have too many people.

SolomonVII said:

For yourself, they are figments of your imagination, and hypothetical arguments, and that is all they ever will be.

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Are you trying to be clever here when it comes to insults?

Boondock_Saint said:

So are you looking forward to the day when your children tell you they are gay?
Or are you looking forward to when they tell you you are going to be a grandfather?





Loving them is not the same as being happy for them. It is ok to want grandchildren

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The funny thing is that you think your views and desires are more important than the sexual orientation and happiness of your grandchild. How hopelessly selfish can you get?

If my grandchild happens to be gay, I hope they have a happy, fulfilled life being whoever they are. My desire for a grandchild is secondary compared to their actual life.

I mean seriously... Do you honestly think you can legislate people to not be gay? If he's gay, I'm not going to get a grandchild either way! Use your brain.

SolomonVII said:

We are made in the image of our Creator, as creators.

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Actually, we're made as a combination of our parents DNA

SolomonVII said:

A world without grandchildren is a tragedy, when one's children reject the very values that brought them into this world.

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Values don't bring people into the world.... Biology does

SolomonVII said:

I don't think that the law necessarily supports normalizing that kind of world by defining the possibility of procreation as being irrelevant to marriage, but that is where the law is headed, and that is where public opinion is headed too.

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Procreation is already irrelevant to marriage. Infertile couples, senior citizens, etc are allowed to marry. So, this argument is pretty invalid.

SolomonVII said:

People will learn to 'celebrate' any state of affairs, if those are the cards they are dealt. Procreation is a moral responsibility however, in a normal society, and any vibrant society.

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Procreation is not a moral responsibility. Those who wish to raise kids should, however there's nothing immoral in not having kids.

SolomonVII said:

Decadent values reflect a society that has entered into a state of decadence for many decades now.

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This is also not a decadent value, it's simply personal freedom and equal rights. That's the basis of a free society.

dGirl1986 said:

Contrary to popular belief gay couples can have and raise children using alternative methods such as adoption, sperm donors etc.

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Just as straight infertile couples do. Or those who simply do not wish to give birth, the women.

Side note, I dont think populating the earth is an issue to be concerned with right now. If anything we have too many people.

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Agreed. A moral responsibility would be reflected in adoption of those children who are already here but without stable families to call their own.

Dave Ellis said:

Actually, we're made as a combination of our parents DNA

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Wow.That is a pretty profound insight Davie.
I did not know that.
Thanks for sharing that.

Values don't bring people into the world.... Biology does

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You mean S..E...X?
Nobody has ever taught me about the birds and the bees before.

Procreation is already irrelevant to marriage. Infertile couples, senior citizens, etc are allowed to marry. So, this argument is pretty invalid.

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Yup.
Procreation is pretty much irrelevant to marriage now.

Procreation is not a moral responsibility. Those who wish to raise kids should, however there's nothing immoral in not having kids.

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You say it aint.
I say it is.
I think we have reached an impasse.

This is also not a decadent value, it's simply personal freedom and equal rights. That's the basis of a free society.

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Yup.
I do believe that in the end that people ought to be given enough rope to hang themselves, for sure.

What I am saying, according to the values that I believe in, and that you do not, is, please don't do that, just because you have the freedom to do so.

Nilloc said:

Here's a non-hypothetical: I don't want any children, nor will I ever have any. My parents would like me to have children, yet they realize that it's not right to insist that I do, because they want me to be happy.

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You are correct. That is the non-hypothetical.

That is exactly what I have been saying in my posts.
You have served your parents lemons, and they have made lemonade, because they love you.

They 'celebrate' your decision for sure as a result.

SolomonVII said:

You are correct. That is the non-hypothetical.That is exactly what I have been saying in my posts.

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You seemed to be saying to Desk trauma that since his feelings about children and grandchildren were hypothetical situations, they didn't matter (which doesn't make much sense to me). I was providing a non-hypothetical.

You have served your parents lemons, and they have made lemonade, because they love you.

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Nope. People make all kinds of decisions that I don't like; that doesn't mean they've served me lemons. I'm not happy that Quentin Tarantino probably won't make another Kill Bill movie (after I've put money in his pocket and been a big fan of his), but that doesn't mean I have a moral claim against him.

They 'celebrate' your decision for sure as a result.

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What's with the scare quotes around celebrate?

Banning homosexual marriage is not unconstitutional. Not even close!

Boondock_Saint said:

So you don't want your children to drink and watch inappropriate content, but you don't care about any grandchildren?

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This wasn't directed at me, but can you tell me what this has to do with same-sex marriage being legal?

What I desire shouldn't dictate the liberty of others, whether they are children or not. I don't think I have a massive problem with inappropriate content, and there is nothing wrong with drinking. I want grandchildren, and homosexual couples can have children. Even if they couldn't, my children's happiness would be more important than me wanting grandchildren.

Creech said:

Banning homosexual marriage is not unconstitutional. Not even close!

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It'd be more accurate to say that there's nothing unconstitutional about not allowing marriage licenses for all orientations. But if people are really dumb enough to want approval from politicians for their union, then it should be provided for everyone.

Boondock_Saint said:

I beleive the constitution gives gays the right to marry each other.

But...
What America needs is family.

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I don't see how "but" is a logical conjunction here.

Boondock_Saint said:

But the question is, do you want that for your children? Don't you want grandchildren who don't do those things. Why would you not care for others but want it for your own?

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If one of my children were to marry someone of the same sex, my only concern would be the comments that they would receive. Your comment here is a perfect example.

Boondock_Saint said:

So are you looking forward to the day when your children tell you they are gay?
Or are you looking forward to when they tell you you are going to be a grandfather?





Loving them is not the same as being happy for them. It is ok to want grandchildren

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Too bad my parents were gay and couldn't give their parents any grandchildren.

Oh, wait. I guess I prove your thesis wrong.

Boondock_Saint said:

Or maybe my kids should watch inappropriate content, be gay, and drink till their happy. Is that what we really want? Or do we want grandchildren who are better than we are.

Loving your children is not the same as being happy for them.

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I don't want my kids watching inappropriate content while they're prepubescent, but after that, meh, as long as it's legal, and they don't let it have a negative effect on their psyche (like an addiction) or their actions.

If I didn't "want" my kids to have a certain sexual orientation, that wouldn't change anything, but no, I wouldn't care.

Drink until *they're happy? Once they're legal, sure. You're not a happy camper once you've blacked out, and I don't have any objective problem with moderate alcohol consumption.