Do you agree?

Metal Minister said:

I'm actually a bit surprised this hasn't generated more discussion than it has...perhaps my theory is that flawed...

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It seemed to me that people may have misunderstood what they were saying "Yes" or "No" to in the poll. I understood you to ask if salvation can come through God's word alone; by the Holy Spirit, of course. I voted "Yes". If only 60% believe that, I'm shocked if the respondents all came from this Forum. Maybe having the question more clear would have helped.

JM said:

Exactly. You can't boast, 'but I heard the Gospel in a Baptist Church therefore I must be saved...'

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This is a Baptist forum, and salvation is individual decision, and if salvation is preached on a street corner or where ever it is preach it is the salvation of Jesus Christ and his blood.

Metal Minister said:

Ok, a bit more clarification. I'm harkening back to the days of the RCC using Latin only, so no, our hypothetical man would not understand a word of it. Secondly, I can look at a piece of art, but it doesn't necessarily tell me what an artist is putting across. I'm saying strictly by my two scenarios, outside of other influences.

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Not debating, just throwing in some facts.

Remember, when the Mass was in only in Latin, the bible was read first in Latin, and more often than not, the bible was again read, this time in the Vernacular. Also, the Homily (Sermon) was in the vernacular. The very reason we have art in our churches was to teach the common man, who could not read much less afford a bible. (Bibles, or any book for that matter, back then took up to ten years to write and cost as much as a large farm.)

No one can be saved in a Roman Catholic mass if it's in Latin. One can be saved by reading the Bible only without any instruction or coaching.

The Bible does not provide salvation, nor does Mass...but faith does. For one can read or hear...and never believe. The Holy Spirit reveals truth, and by that truth one is saved.

98cwitr said:

The Bible does not provide salvation, nor does Mass...but faith does. For one can read or hear...and never believe. The Holy Spirit reveals truth, and by that truth one is saved.

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Faith is of no use unless one reads or hears the Gospel and the Spirit draws him. You are not saved by faith but by the shed blood of Jesus.

revrobor said:

Faith is of no use unless one reads or hears the Gospel and the Spirit draws him. You are not saved by faith but by the shed blood of Jesus.

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Christ has sled His blood for the elect, but all the sheep are not yet in the pen.

John 15:26
[ The Work of the Holy Spirit ] “When the Advocate comes, whom I will send to you from the Father—the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father—he will testify about me.

The Spirit testifies....

I guess the thing throwing me on this topic is that you have taken the worst example of the mass (those times when it was in a language no one understood) and the best example of the Scriptures (a full Bible with old and New Testament, readily available to be picked up and read by a literate populace) as the basis of your comparison.

For a number of centuries folks had somewhat limited access to the Scriptures, and one of the few places they could hear large amounts of Scripture was first in the synagogues and then in the churches, as it was read publicly.

John records they were even then putting some out of the synagogues. Paul went to the synagogues to root out the church. James indicates if someone comes into your synagogue with a gold ring, etc.

People heard the Scriptures where they were being read. This continued after they were put out of the synagogues. Paul when he was put out of the synagogues in Acts went to a leader's house or for instance to the lecture hall and met there to read the Scriptures and teach the particular Christian message. So public reading of the word was a very legitimate means for hearing the word, along with Christian teaching, and for receiving salvation.

Yes, after some time Latin mass excluded folks who didn't know it. However, at one time Latin was the language of the western empire.

Pitting a later distortion of the early church's worship against a later modern notion of a readily available Bible may not tell us the actual options in previous times.

And since Vatican II it doesn't even tell us the actual options in today's times.

The mass is not just in Latin anymore. And Scripture is included in the mass.

Metal Minister said:

I recently had a discussion with several catholic brothers and sisters where I asked this question. Can the mass save by itself? Here's what I mean:

If a man, who'd never heard of Jesus, or Christianity, were to find a bible on the side of the road, he could find salvation within its pages without an outside influence.

Now if that same man, never laid hands upon that bible, but walked into a mass every Sunday, and never knew the what lay in the pages of the word, could he find salvation?
The response was that the bible is a part of a mass. They missed the point. For centuries, this was exactly what was happening. The mass was always performed in Latin, and the people did not understand it. They got nothing of the word, only the wafer at the end. So my question still remains. Can a man find salvation in a mass, without the bible? The short answer, no. Can that same man find salvation in the pages of the bible without the mass? Short answer, yes. This is the essence of Sola Scriptura. That the bible, the inerrant word of our most Holy God, is sufficient for salvation. Is there anything wrong with tradition? No, of course not, provided it lines up with God's word, and does not attempt to supercede it. So, do you agree, or am I way off base?

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Truthfully, neither the Liturgy (Mass) nor the Bible can save a person. It is only God's grace that saves. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). So we see that it is God's grace which saves, faith being the doorway, or means by which grace enters and gives Life to a person.

But I will tell you plainly, that both the Liturgy (common worship/work of the faithful) and the Scriptures (word of God) are designed so as to powerfully communicate God's grace to a person of faith who wishes to continue to abide in God's grace, or rather, have God's grace continue to abide in them. It is possible that God's saving grace can be sufficiently communicated by each separately. But why would any of us wish to deprive ourselves of either of these means when both are available to us, especially in these days?

tall73 said:

I guess the thing throwing me on this topic is that you have taken the worst example of the mass (those times when it was in a language no one understood) and the best example of the Scriptures (a full Bible with old and New Testament, readily available to be picked up and read by a literate populace) as the basis of your comparison.

For a number of centuries folks had somewhat limited access to the Scriptures, and one of the few places they could hear large amounts of Scripture was first in the synagogues and then in the churches, as it was read publicly.

John records they were even then putting some out of the synagogues. Paul went to the synagogues to root out the church. James indicates if someone comes into your synagogue with a gold ring, etc.

People heard the Scriptures where they were being read. This continued after they were put out of the synagogues. Paul when he was put out of the synagogues in Acts went to a leader's house or for instance to the lecture hall and met there to read the Scriptures and teach the particular Christian message. So public reading of the word was a very legitimate means for hearing the word, along with Christian teaching, and for receiving salvation.

Yes, after some time Latin mass excluded folks who didn't know it. However, at one time Latin was the language of the western empire.

Pitting a later distortion of the early church's worship against a later modern notion of a readily available Bible may not tell us the actual options in previous times.

And since Vatican II it doesn't even tell us the actual options in today's times.

The mass is not just in Latin anymore. And Scripture is included in the mass.

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Let me add to this two quotes:

Bruce Coville said:

Withholding information is the essence of tyranny. Control of the flow of information is the tool of the dictatorship.

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And:

Jim Morrison said:

Whoever controls the media, controls the mind.

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The first 1500 years, of the last two millenia, it was all about control. If you do not believe me, ask the Donatists, or the Waldensians.

God Bless

Till all are one.

Let me explain further.

First, a disclaimer: I am not of the Orthodox, or Roman Catholic faith. And if I am wrong, I apologize.

Secondly: An Orthodox member said:

Truthfully, neither the Liturgy (Mass) nor the Bible can save a person. It is only God's grace that saves. "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph. 2:8). So we see that it is God's grace which saves, faith being the doorway, or means by which grace enters and gives Life to a person.

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To which, I agree.

Hopefully when people go to church, whether its in a Baptist, Catholic, or Orthodox church, where people hear sermons or homilies, it is done by a man who has studied the scriptures and is Spirit led.

Scriptures tell us that:

"For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith:" -Rom. 1:17 (KJV)

A good piece of scripture to use that faith has to be given to a person before they can believe.

The Ethopian Eunach as recorded in Acts supports this also. He was reading scripture, but until he was enlightened, he could not understand it.

Third: It was all about control. In the first 1400 years of the church, the bibles were handwritten copies. They were few and precious. Closely guarded and protected.

Long comes the "moveable press". Ask john Knox what happened when he started to put the sacred word into the hands of the people.

Ask Martin Luther about when he wanted to translate the word into German.

In 1500, what good did it do to preach a homily in Latin, when the common folk spoke German?

It was about control to a degree.

ASk the residents of Bezers, france. yes there was widespread gnostism, but there was also a good presence of Catholics there too. And what happened there?

"Kill them all, God will know his own!"

Up to the point of salvation, I'm sure my Orthodox friend would agree, we stand shoulder to shoulder. Its only after that point that we begin to separate.

But as far as Baptists and most Protestants, the concept of "sola scriptura" (The Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments were given by inspiration of God, and are the only sufficient, certain and authoritative rule of all saving knowledge, faith and obedience.-James P. Boyce, Abstract of Principles, 1858) applies only after the point of salvation.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I agree, it takes the Word of God.

Unless a person trusts in Jesus alone for salvation they are going to live in eternal punishment. If they are putting their trust in works they are going to live in eternal punishment.

Metal Minister said:

I recently had a discussion with several catholic brothers and sisters where I asked this question. Can the mass save by itself? Here's what I mean:

If a man, who'd never heard of Jesus, or Christianity, were to find a bible on the side of the road, he could find salvation within its pages without an outside influence.

Now if that same man, never laid hands upon that bible, but walked into a mass every Sunday, and never knew the what lay in the pages of the word, could he find salvation?
The response was that the bible is a part of a mass. They missed the point. For centuries, this was exactly what was happening. The mass was always performed in Latin, and the people did not understand it. They got nothing of the word, only the wafer at the end. So my question still remains. Can a man find salvation in a mass, without the bible? The short answer, no. Can that same man find salvation in the pages of the bible without the mass? Short answer, yes. This is the essence of Sola Scriptura. That the bible, the inerrant word of our most Holy God, is sufficient for salvation. Is there anything wrong with tradition? No, of course not, provided it lines up with God's word, and does not attempt to supercede it. So, do you agree, or am I way off base?

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Yes I agree.