Locusts upon the earth

Interplanner said:

Likewise the "end" in Dan 9 comes like a flood. It does not mean it would look like a flood, it would draw upon the last time things ended with a flood (hint, hint); the meaning of that was the termination of that world because of incorrigible wickedness...

anyone remember the last time locusts filled the land?

EbedM is right: know the accounts of the OT to find the meaning of Rev. The woman is the antitype of the good wife, of faithful Israel all through the prophets; she is rather like the unfaithful Israel in many of the prophets... It is not through photography and modern technology.

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Just so we understand that all that Revelation borrows from the ol' O.T. is used in an independent way; we do not find even a single O.T. quotation but only adaptations and nothing more, ie, I call appropriations. No governor on the ol' O.T. engine here in Rev.

Brian45 said:

Or it could be that the people back then were having sex with animals , that would make them quite different from us today wouldn't it?

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If a man has sex with a horse, one doesn't get a centaur. All you have is a pervert who raped a horse.

The Bible doesn't talk about genetic modification, gene splicing, or even robotics. The Bible doesn't mention it because it was written before such things were even a twinkle in the eye of human technology.

No. The locusts of the Apocalypse are not helicopters, they are not robots, they are not genetically modified insects, nor are they simply monsters. They are not literal, the Apocalypse is--not surprisingly--using apocalyptic language.

There is an odd thing that has happened in the history of Christianity in the last couple hundred years. That which has historically been taken as literal has become figurative, whereas that which was historically taken as figurative is now taken as literal. The result is that we have a generation of Christians who when reading the Lord Jesus saying, "This is My body" they say, "It's not really His body", but who believe St. John of Patmos was talking about literal bug monsters.

-CryptoLutheran

ebedmelech said:

Pure nonsense...just a casual reading of the passage says NO! Just read it..."the appearance of the locust WAS LIKE HORSES".

They are not literal locusts. Do yourself a favor and as you read the the OT you see armies likened to locusts...especially in Jeremiah 51.

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If you believe this is a human army you have several things to explain:

1) Why are the "locusts" commanded not to harm any green thing, including any tree? This bespeaks itself of literal insects.

2) Why is the duration of the plague very close to the lifespan of a locust (5 months)?

3) How could a human army affect the entire planet? The point of the locust plague is some global cataclysm upon those who have the mark of the beast. I fail to see how a human army could spread out over the entire planet.

4) How exactly does a human army "torment" the entire globe without killing anyone? Again this speaks of insects.

5) Why is it said that these locusts arise out of the bottomless pit, and that they have a leader who is the angel of the bottomless pit (Apollyon)? This speaks of their demonic origin.

Just because John uses simile to describe the locusts does not mean they are not literal insects. In addition, just because there are OT comparisons of locusts to armies does not mean that every single mention of the word "locust" in Scripture refers to an army. If we go off of the description in Revelation, then it appears that these are some form of insect.

Jer 15 and 43 are quoted in 13
Ps 2 in 12
Ps 115 and 135 in 9
Hos 10 in 6 (which is also from Jesus' usage in Lk 23)
to name a few. Metzger has them in bold in Greek because they are quotes

If you are unable to wrap your head around those "grasshoppers" in Rev.9:3, etc., preliminary judgments today that come from God and sent as a curse, don[t even think about going forward to the "horses" in Rev.9:17, etc. Even God wouldn't be able to rescue you from a plunge into the abyss of depression. BTW nothing literal for sure! Just ol' old Jack enjoying the thread.

Achilles6129 said:

If you believe this is a human army you have several things to explain:

1) Why are the "locusts" commanded not to harm any green thing, including any tree? This bespeaks itself of literal insects.

2) Why is the duration of the plague very close to the lifespan of a locust (5 months)?

3) How could a human army affect the entire planet? The point of the locust plague is some global cataclysm upon those who have the mark of the beast. I fail to see how a human army could spread out over the entire planet.

4) How exactly does a human army "torment" the entire globe without killing anyone? Again this speaks of insects.

5) Why is it said that these locusts arise out of the bottomless pit, and that they have a leader who is the angel of the bottomless pit (Apollyon)? This speaks of their demonic origin.

Just because John uses simile to describe the locusts does not mean they are not literal insects. In addition, just because there are OT comparisons of locusts to armies does not mean that every single mention of the word "locust" in Scripture refers to an army. If we go off of the description in Revelation, then it appears that these are some form of insect.

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1) Actually, the fact that they didn't harm any plant life, only those men who have not the seal of God (Holy Spirit) in their foreheads means they are not literal insects.

2) the sign of time (5 months) is figurative, and is also found several times over in scripture as I also showed in my post as a fulfilling of time. (Jesus also spoke of the sign of the times)

3) This human army is made up of false prophets, teachers, guides, leaders who pervert the minds of many and deceive the world with lies.

4) Hench the locust army does not literally kill them, but bring torment upon them.

5) the sign of this army coming out of the pit (hell) is the sign of the children of hell. Just as Jesus told those false teachers in his day, they were teaching their followers to be twofold the children of hell as they were themselves.

Achilles6129 said:

If you believe this is a human army you have several things to explain:

1) Why are the "locusts" commanded not to harm any green thing, including any tree? This bespeaks itself of literal insects.

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This would be the effect of locusts on the land...let the "bell ring" from the locusts plague of Exodus. As you read on in the OT...there are several cases where the likening of armies in battle are locusts...look at these:

Judges 6:5:
For they would come up with their livestock and their tents, they would come in like locusts for number, both they and their camels were innumerable; and they came into the land to devastate it.

Jeremiah 51:14:
14 The Lord of hosts has sworn by Himself: “Surely I will fill you with a population like locusts, And they will cry out with shouts of victory over you.”

Does not war involve the destruction of the land and agriculture? We're dealing in the 1st century here...and the destroying of agriculture is a huge part of the plan.

Achilles6129 said:

2) Why is the duration of the plague very close to the lifespan of a locust (5 months)?

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Again you make the mistake of not accepting what the text says. This is HOW it''s stated...Rev 9:7-11
7 The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
8 They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions.
9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle.
10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt men for five months.

Are you going to tell me after reading what these locusts ARE LIKE..you can't get the picture...

Achilles6129 said:

3) How could a human army affect the entire planet? The point of the locust plague is some global cataclysm upon those who have the mark of the beast. I fail to see how a human army could spread out over the entire planet.

4) How exactly does a human army "torment" the entire globe without killing anyone? Again this speaks of insects.

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Reflect on this time (the 1st century), this is the KNOWN WORLD at that time. But because you buy into futurism you won't allow yourself to see this as war in the 1st century, which is predominantly done by armies.

Achilles6129 said:

5) Why is it said that these locusts arise out of the bottomless pit, and that they have a leader who is the angel of the bottomless pit (Apollyon)? This speaks of their demonic origin.

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This represent the influence of Satanic origin. It's great that you brought his up too. I'm doing a chronological reading of the bible, and I read this the other day as the prophet Michaiah explains to Ahaz, his prophetic vision from God...watch how God does this in 2 Chronicles 18:20-22:
20 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ And the Lord said to him, ‘How?’
21 He said, ‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then He said, ‘You are to entice him and prevail also. Go and do so.’
22 Now therefore, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of these your prophets, for the Lord has proclaimed disaster against you.”

So tell me...who can stop God from moving things the way HE wants things to go? That is some insight (in terms we can understand), of God's Holy Counsel, to bring about what He wants to happen!!!

Achilles6129 said:

Just because John uses simile to describe the locusts does not mean they are not literal insects. In addition, just because there are OT comparisons of locusts to armies does not mean that every single mention of the word "locust" in Scripture refers to an army. If we go off of the description in Revelation, then it appears that these are some form of insect.

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It is the way we've seen God work in the OT under the LIGHT of the NT that allows us to see these things.

The reading of Revelation 9:7-11 makes it very clear this is an army. If you accept what it says...and HOW it says it.

InSpiritInTruth said:

In Revelation chapter 9 we see there is a swarm of locusts loosed by the fallen star from heaven. I believe this fallen star is a sign for Lucifer, and the children of hell were given to him By the Lord as a host. Because we see in Revelation 1:18 it is the Lord who is the only one who has control over these keys of hell. Notice in verse 2 when the bottomless pit is opened the air and the sun became darkened be reason of the smoke.

This sign was also given to us when Jesus was on the cross, when the sun was darkened from the 6th hour to the 9th hour. This is the sign of the third part being darkened, showing how this third part would blinded from the truth, and lack understanding the scriptures by reason of this darkness. Just as Paul said; that blindness would come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles was complete; just as Paul was also a sign of this very thing himself.

In verse 3 we see these locusts were given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. In Deuteronomy 8:15 we see when the children of Israel were led through the wilderness they encountered fiery serpents, and scorpions, and drought. Also in Ezekiel 2:6 the Lord told Ezekiel not to be afraid of the words of the people, and he compared them to briers and thorns, and scorpions.

These signs of the serpents and scorpions was given to show the deadly poison that was contained in the mouths of these false prophets, and evil leaders of the people. In Matthew 23:33 Jesus called those false teachers of the day, serpents, and generation of vipers showing this very same thing. But in Luke 10:19 Jesus empowered his disciples by saying; " I give you power to tread upon serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy. In this we see the Lords disciples will not be harmed by their deadly poison.

And we see this truth in Revelation 9:4 when only those who have not the Seal of God in their foreheads would be hurt. This seal of God is the anointing of the Holy Spirit, and the indwelling of Gods living Word written in their hearts and mind. We are shown this sealing up in Ezekiel 9:4 with the mark set upon the foreheads of the Lords saints before the other angels went out to slay the people who had not this mark.

Back in Revelation 9:5 we see these locusts were to devour the minds of men for 5 months, which is a sign of time given in the days of Noah and the flood. This sign of time is shown as 5 months x 30 days= 150; which can also be shown as 50+50+50= 150; like the 3 groups of 50 that came with their captains to bring Elijah down from the mount, and were consumed by fire. But also in Judges 15:4 we see this sign when Samson would take 300 foxes and join them together 2 by 2 at the tail and light a fire brand between the 2 tails in order to set the crops of the uncircumcised on fire; this is 300 divided by 2= 150.

This consumption by fire was pronounced by Jesus when he said in Luke 12:49; " I am come to send a fire on earth; and what will I if it already be kindled?" This cleansing by fire was shown in Numbers 31:23 as a way to cleanse the spoils of war. This fire the Lord was talking about is shown in James 3:5 with the tongue of man, that boasts of great things, and can kindle a great fire. So again we see it is this false doctrine that would consume and destroy, even the minds of men.

Back in Revelation 9:7 we see the shapes of these locusts were like horses. In Psalm 32:9 we see the sign of this in the horse, and mule which has no understanding. We also see in Revelation 9:7 that these locusts had on their heads crowns like gold. This is seen in Nahum 3:17 where it is written; " Thy crowned are as locusts, and thy captains as great grasshoppers." This shows how these false teachers shall rule like royalty during this time period.

In Revelation 9:8 we see they had the hair of women, which does not show gender, but rather a lack of understanding in scripture. In Ecclesiastes 7:28 we see the preacher sought for those who had understanding; which he only found 1 among a thousand men, but he found no women. This has to do with the generation periods not gender; remember first came man, and then out of man came woman. In this case the woman refers to the Gentile period, and how they would not understand the scriptures by reason of this dark period of time. Just as Jesus declared, the darkness was coming and no man would be able to work.

In Revelation 9:9 we see these locusts had breastplates of iron, which shows their hardness of heart. And we also see in verse 10 that their sting was in their tales, like the scorpions. This mystery is shown in Isaiah 9:15 when the Lord said;" The ancient and honorable, he is the head; and the prophet that speaks lies, he is the tail. So in all these things we see, and understand what these swarms of locusts mean, and to what purpose they served.

Just as we see in Revelation 9:11 that their king over them is the destroyer himself.

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A lot of this is what I am catching as I look at it, in fact that twice the child of hell (in the making) by them (of which) even people can be shown as "a smoke" and they which come out of the smoke, and the being made like and their comparisons.

Now, one thing I was musing on, but have no clarity on it yet, which you mention in your other post was the sign of the "times". Because I was also looking at Elizabeth being hid for a time of five months. But also in relation to Elizabeth is that pertaining to John whose diet consisted of Locusts. Not to mention the sign of the five months in respects to the locusts (there). Maybe I will take this up more privately with you, so I can at least show you how I am reasoning with it (and why my question is still unanswered there) and because of the way its written how I cant line it up (even in similitude) that seems to be hinted at (in times) as shown in Elizabeth.

Can you at least hit it right there for me (here) to perhaps help me catch it if you are at all seeing any connection between in that?

Otherwise, I will go private, I don't like speaking of these things here so much.

InSpiritInTruth said:

1) Actually, the fact that they didn't harm any plant life, only those men who have not the seal of God (Holy Spirit) in their foreheads means they are not literal insects.

2) the sign of time (5 months) is figurative, and is also found several times over in scripture as I also showed in my post as a fulfilling of time. (Jesus also spoke of the sign of the times)

3) This human army is made up of false prophets, teachers, guides, leaders who pervert the minds of many and deceive the world with lies.

4) Hench the locust army does not literally kill them, but bring torment upon them.

5) the sign of this army coming out of the pit (hell) is the sign of the children of hell. Just as Jesus told those false teachers in his day, they were teaching their followers to be twofold the children of hell as they were themselves.

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Simply this is just a picture of the delusions at IIThess.2:11, 12, ie, strike those that don't care for the Truth, IIThess.2:9, 10. Supernatural inflictions; however don't be that concerned as one has to actually meet the Truth of the Word which no one has today hence won't be receiving these horrors. To simplify even more, ie, God allows the demonic gospel to appear as the genuine Gospel. Not picking on you in fact have a lot of respect for you and your words.

InSpiritInTruth said:

1) Actually, the fact that they didn't harm any plant life, only those men who have not the seal of God (Holy Spirit) in their foreheads means they are not literal insects.

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If they were not literal insects then why would it be necessary to command them not to harm plant life? That's the point I was trying to make. Locusts usually harm plants/trees, but these are specifically commanded not to. That lends credence to the idea that they are literal insects.

InSpiritInTruth said:

2) the sign of time (5 months) is figurative, and is also found several times over in scripture as I also showed in my post as a fulfilling of time. (Jesus also spoke of the sign of the times)

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How do you prove that 5 months is figurative? That is an unnecessary reading of the text.

InSpiritInTruth said:

3) This human army is made up of false prophets, teachers, guides, leaders who pervert the minds of many and deceive the world with lies.

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This is a fairly interesting interpretation.

InSpiritInTruth said:

4) Hench the locust army does not literally kill them, but bring torment upon them.

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How exactly do they torment them with their lies?

InSpiritInTruth said:

5) the sign of this army coming out of the pit (hell) is the sign of the children of hell. Just as Jesus told those false teachers in his day, they were teaching their followers to be twofold the children of hell as they were themselves.

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This is quite an interesting interpretation. Sounds quite plausible as well. I still do not quite understand how this would fit in with the description of tormenting them, however. How exactly would lies torment someone? Also, the implication is that the people seek death because of these locusts. Perhaps you could expound on these things.

ebedmelech said:

This would be the effect of locusts on the land...let the "bell ring" from the locusts plague of Exodus. As you read on in the OT...there are several cases where the likening of armies in battle are locusts...look at these:

Judges 6:5:
For they would come up with their livestock and their tents, they would come in like locusts for number, both they and their camels were innumerable; and they came into the land to devastate it.

Jeremiah 51:14:
14 The Lord of hosts has sworn by Himself: “Surely I will fill you with a population like locusts, And they will cry out with shouts of victory over you.”

Does not war involve the destruction of the land and agriculture? We're dealing in the 1st century here...and the destroying of agriculture is a huge part of the plan.

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Very well - so war involves the destruction of land/agriculture. Explain to me how a human army could effect the "stings" mentioned in Rev. 9, and how this army could have such an effect on the global population. Remember that this is a global plague.

ebedmelech said:

Again you make the mistake of not accepting what the text says. This is HOW it''s stated...Rev 9:7-11
7 The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
8 They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions.
9 They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle.
10 They have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt men for five months.

Are you going to tell me after reading what these locusts ARE LIKE..you can't get the picture...

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Right, I see what they're like, but I also see that a locust's lifespan in the wild is about 5 months. This locust plague lasts 5 months. Is this a coincidence? That was my point.

ebedmelech said:

Reflect on this time (the 1st century), this is the KNOWN WORLD at that time. But because you buy into futurism you won't allow yourself to see this as war in the 1st century, which is predominantly done by armies.

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Ah yes I forgot. You take Revelation to be historical.

ebedmelech said:

This represent the influence of Satanic origin.

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Ok, not a bad interpretation.

ebedmelech said:

The reading of Revelation 9:7-11 makes it very clear this is an army. If you accept what it says...and HOW it says it.

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I do not believe that it makes it so clear at all. Use of simile does not mean these are not literal insects. And, there are problems with the locusts being an army, which are addressed in the questions I ask you at the beginning of this post.

Achilles6129 said:

How exactly do they torment them with their lies?

This is quite an interesting interpretation. Sounds quite plausible as well. I still do not quite understand how this would fit in with the description of tormenting them, however. How exactly would lies torment someone? Also, the implication is that the people seek death because of these locusts. Perhaps you could expound on these things.

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I won't get into the sign of time because those things are too hard to discern, but that sign of time 5 months, or the number 150 is shown in various ways throughout scripture, but discerning what it means is another issue.

I believe the torment of the lies, and false doctrine speaks of the curse it brings with it for following it, like drinking poison itself. Just as those who receive the mark of the beast, and worship his image shall also be tormented day and night.

But concerning the serpents and scorpions (who Jesus also refered to, and their poison) which speaks of their words and doctrine.

Psalm 58:4
Their poison is like the poison of a serpent: they are like the deaf adder that stoppeth her ear;
Psalm 140:3
They have sharpened their tongues like a serpent; adders' poison is under their lips. Selah.
Romans 3:13
Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips:
James 3:8
But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison.

So just as poison brings torment, their words and doctrine of lies would also bring torment.

But Jesus said to His disciples they would be able to tread on serpents and scorpions, and their deadly poison would in no wise hurt them.
http://www.christianforums.com/passage/?search=James+3:7-9&version=KJV

I got it!!!

Brian45 said:

Revelation 9:8 - And they had hair as the hair of women,

Well I'll be! look at that! problem solved.

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And if only the breastplates be of silicone, the whole mystery would be made sure

Brian45 said:

No jack I wouldn't dare go there and say something like 4 men to a tank and that the count was only of the horsemen and not of the tanks....lol

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....ever see a woman scorned, ie, restyle her hair as if she was in a fury (Rev.9:8) then we are in that tank together as a team against all those hairy forces.