Works

That rule seems a bit restrictive. There are lots of Christians who believe that works play a crucial role in salvation. Surely there should be room to debate the issue?

wordsoflife said:

I took this quote from the non-denominational forum rules (SOF):

"Promotion of the doctrine of salvation by works is not allowed."

Yet, there are several users who continually post here who do not heed this call.

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That forum rule is consistent with scripture.

Gal 5:7-9
You ran well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? This persuasion does not come from Him who calls you. A little leaven (doctrines of works of the law, Matt 16:12) leavens the whole lump

The doctrine of works of the law is spoken of symbolically as "leaven" (Matt 16:12) and also as "Hagar" Gal 4:24.

Note 1Cor 5:7
Therefore purge out the old leaven, that you may be a new lump, since you truly are unleavened

This is in keeping with the entire chapter of 1Cor 5, which is speaking about one fornicating with his father's wife. The "father" refers to the devil (as Jesus described of those under the law, John 8:44), and his "wife" symbolically refers to Hagar/works of the law (Gal 4:24).

Christians are instructed to flee fornication (1Cor 6:18) with Hagar/the law.
We're instructed to abstain from fornication (1Thess 4:3) with Hagar/the law.

And note 1Cor 5:9
I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

Note also 1Cor 5:13
Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

So we see that the forum rule against works of the law for salvation is consistent with God's will.

Yet, there are several users who continually post here who do not heed this call.

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Can you post an example or two so we can better understand what you mean? Thanks.

oh btw, my understanding is that it's God's salvation and he can give it to anyone he wants, but will he want to give it to those who think they've earned it, or will he want to give it to those who are unwilling to work for his kingdom?

There are problems with either extreme.

candle glow said:

oh btw, my understanding is that it's God's salvation and he can give it to anyone he wants, but will he want to give it to those who think they've earned it, or will he want to give it to those who are unwilling to work for his kingdom?

There are problems with either extreme.

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So it's a good thing that it isn't a human that decides who has salvation and who doesn't.

("Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:27-28) ("Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Ra'hab the harlot justified by works, when she had recieved the messangers, and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:24-26)

child630 said:

("Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law." Romans 3:27-28) ("Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Ra'hab the harlot justified by works, when she had recieved the messangers, and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." James 2:24-26)

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And the works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, as Jesus himself explained in John 6:29.

Which is also consistent with many other scriptures such as below:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Rom 10:9
if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

And note how we are born of God and overcome.

1John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,

1John 5:4,5
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God

Note how works of the law plays absolutely no part in salvation by grace.

hmw said:

And the works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, as Jesus himself explained in John 6:29.

Which is also consistent with many other scriptures such as below:

John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Rom 10:9
if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved

And note how we are born of God and overcome.

1John 5:1
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,

1John 5:4,5
For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith. Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God

Note how works of the law plays absolutely no part in salvation by grace.

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Thank you. I was a little confused.

Does anyone think we can separate "Faith" from "Works". God's Word says if we have "faith" we will have works and it also indicates that our "works" will show our faith.

Seems like where one is, the other is there as well.

Maybe the question is what comes first "faith" or "works"?

CallingInTheDesert said:

Does anyone think we can separate "Faith" from "Works". God's Word says if we have "faith" we will have works and it also indicates that our "works" will show our faith.

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The works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.

The works that denies God, is works of the law. Anyone who preaches that our righteousness is determined by obedience to the law, is in unbelief. They may profess to know God, but by their works of the law they deny Him, Tit 1:16.

hmw said:

The works that shows our faith is to believe in Jesus, John 6:29.

The works that denies God, is works of the law. Anyone who preaches that our righteousness is determined by obedience to the law, is in unbelief. They may profess to know God, but by their works of the law they deny Him, Tit 1:16.

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So, how do we know that we or anyone else are "believing in Jesus"?

How does someone know that they are believing in "Jesus" or believing in "the devil"?

How do you know you are belieiving in "Jesus" and not believing in something else or someone else?

CallingInTheDesert said:

So, how do we know that we or anyone else are "believing in Jesus"?

How does someone know that they are believing in "Jesus" or believing in "the devil"?

How do you know you are belieiving in "Jesus" and not believing in something else or someone else?

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Consider James 1 speaking of how our faith is tested.

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

What temptations are there?
The most common that scripture often warns about is the lust of the flesh in turning back to righteousness by works of the law/fornication with Hagar.

James 1:22-25
But be doers of the word (believing in Jesus), and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work (believing in Jesus, john 6:29), this one will be blessed in what he does.

Those who are forgetful hearers are those who forget that in Christ they are righteous (Rom 4:5) and they instead turn back to the law to determine righteousness by works of the law.

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.
Those under the law are in unbelief.

hmw said:

Consider James 1 speaking of how our faith is tested.

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience. But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

What temptations are there?
The most common that scripture often warns about is the lust of the flesh in turning back to righteousness by works of the law/fornication with Hagar.

James 1:22-25
But be doers of the word (believing in Jesus), and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves. For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man observing his natural face in a mirror; for he observes himself, goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work (believing in Jesus, john 6:29), this one will be blessed in what he does.

Those who are forgetful hearers are those who forget that in Christ they are righteous (Rom 4:5) and they instead turn back to the law to determine righteousness by works of the law.

The sin the world is convicted of is unbelief in Jesus, John 16:9.
Those under the law are in unbelief.

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You highlighted in red that a believer in Christ must





I totally agree with this God's Word, if we have "faith" in Jesus Christ, we must also have the "works" of Jesus Christ - otherwise our "faith" is dead faith.


So, each one of us has to evaluate our "faith" by our "works".

"Promotion of the doctrine of salvation by works is not allowed."

Salvation is by faith.
After salvation, "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience ..."

CallingInTheDesert said:

You highlighted in red that a believer in Christ must

"be doers of the word
(believing in Jesus-your words (not God's Word)),
and not hearers only"​

and ​

"is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work"​

I totally agree with this God's Word, if we have "faith" in Jesus Christ, we must also have the "works" of Jesus Christ - otherwise our "faith" is dead faith.


So, each one of us has to evaluate our "faith" by our "works".

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And Jesus told us that our works are to believe in him, John 6:29.
Scriptures consistently confirm James 1:22-25 that we should be doers of the word/work of believing in Jesus.

But, if anyone follows the lust of the flesh into unbelief/righteousness by works of the law, then by these evil works they show that they deny God.

Such profess to know God, but being a forgetful hearer, they are like the man who sees himself in a mirror but when he looks away from it he immediately forgets what manner of man he was. In other words they hear the gospel, receive Christ, but, then they forget that their faith is counted for righteousness and they then turn back to dead works of the law to determine righteousness (just as you are doing).

hmw: But, if anyone follows the lust of the flesh into unbelief/righteousness by works of the law, then by these evil works they show that they deny God.

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So, in other words;
The only way to be sinless, is to sin.
If we don't sin, then we are sinners because we "deny God" by not sinning.

hmw said:

And Jesus told us that our works are to believe in him, John 6:29.

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Yes, this is TRUE, but what does it mean to believe in Jesus Christ? That is the big question here.

Jesus is the WAY, TRUTH, and the LIFE.

So, to believe in Jesus Christ, we have to believe in what He has done on the cross to get us in the WAY of Him

Then a person has to also believe in God's TRUTH to believe in Jesus Christ.

The last part of Christ we need to also believe in is that all this belief in the previous 2 (the WAY, and TRUTH) will bring us to have LIFE in Him - this is our hope to look forward to during our sanctification process.

If someone doesn't believe in Christ being the only WAY, then they can't even get started in a relationship with God.

If someone believes enough in Christ to get in the WAY of Christ, but refuses God's TRUTH to set them free of their sin and sinful nature, then they will wither away and never receive LIFE in Christ.

But if a person believes to get in the WAY of Christ and then also believes in God's TRUTH, then they will live that Truth and become One with God and receive LIFE when God sees this process complete.

If a person leaves out any of these (the WAY, TRUTH, and LIFE) out of their beliefs, then they don't actually believe in Jesus Christ, but have at best partially believed - which will count for nothing and will get them nothing in the end, except thier own destruction.