Mecca is the Harlot, Not Rome

Lollerskates · Jun 3, 2013

Of course a pope, as it were, was not in existence during John's prophecy because his prophecy is about End of Days. This is why you have to take it for what it is: popes were not rulers of anything until 1929, when they became their own nation-state, sovereign and all. Since then, there have been eight "kings/heads of states/rulers/etc. Francis is the eighth. So when John talks about a harlot that sits on seven hills, who has five kings fallen, one IS, and one is to come that will last a short while, he is having a vision during Pope John Paul II's reign as pope. Benedict XVI is the seventh (lasted only 8 years, first pope to "quit" since Gregory,) and the 8th that is of the seventh is Francis I. Francis is the first Jesuit Pope. The Jesuits are the army of the Church. They work for the commander in chief: the Pope. Francis is OF the seventh. His boss was/is Pope Benedict XVI.

Douggg · Jun 3, 2013

Lollerskates said:
Of course a pope, as it were, was not in existence during John's prophecy because his prophecy is about End of Days.

But John is being told that the beast was already in the bottomless pit in his day. The beast will become the 8th king, of which 5 had already fallen. With one existing at the time. And the seventh king future of John's time.

It is an advanced study, but the crowns on the heads and horns of the beast portrait in Revelation 17, Revelation 12, Revelation 13 are all different - because they are taken at different periods of time.

Revelation 17 - 1st century
Revelation 12 - with 7 years to go before Jesus's Second Coming
Revelation 13 - with 42 months to go before Jesus's Return

The popes, none of them fit, as any of the kings.

This is why you have to take it for what it is: popes were not rulers of anything until 1929, when they became their own nation-state, sovereign and all. Since then, there have been eight "kings/heads of states/rulers/etc. Francis is the eighth. So when John talks about a harlot that sits on seven hills, who has five kings fallen, one IS, and one is to come that will last a short while, he is having a vision during Pope John Paul II's reign as pope. Benedict XVI is the seventh (lasted only 8 years, first pope to "quit" since Gregory,) and the 8th that is of the seventh is Francis I. Francis is the first Jesuit Pope. The Jesuits are the army of the Church. They work for the commander in chief: the Pope. Francis is OF the seventh. His boss was/is Pope Benedict XVI.

John was not having a vision at all regarding the kings - he was being told by the angel what the horns and heads were, and where the actual beast was - because John could not see into the bottomless pit,

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

And the angel said regarding the seven kings "one is", not in the future, but right then at the time of John.

The prophecy of the 7 kings was not complete in the first century, so there are no crowns on the heads in Revelation 17:3

In Revelation 12, with 7 years to go before Jesus Returns, the 7 heads have their crowns, indicating that the 7th king has come to power, the end times Antichrist person. Nothing to do with a pope.

In Revelation 13, with 42 months to go before Jesus Returns, the 7 heads don't have crowns indicating that the prophecy of the 7 kings is over, with one of the heads (the 7th), the Antichrist, mortally wounded and recovered.

The beast is visible to John in Revelation 13, because he has ascended out of the bottomless pit to possess the recovered Antichrist. John doesn't have to be told by an angel anything in Revelation 13. In Revelation 12 and 17, the actual beast is still in the bottomless pit, so what John sees is Satan the power behind the beast.

Doug

Bible2 · Jun 4, 2013

Lollerskates said in post 41:

Benedict XVI is the seventh (lasted only 8 years, first pope to "quit" since Gregory,) and the 8th that is of the seventh is Francis I.

Are you saying that a pope is the Antichrist? If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Catholicism in its past and current form, insofar as Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Christ, whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Son of God, whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b). And Catholicism affirms that Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Catholicism affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that the only man who is God is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whereas the Antichrist will say that he (the Antichrist) is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that Lucifer (Satan) is evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Catholicism in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Catholicism in its current form (as well as Christianity generally, and also Islam), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

Interplanner · Jun 4, 2013

Bible2, I am dissappointed that you haven't posted anything about Acts 26, ie, about a thread I started on that, specifically on how Paul did not go beyond the prophets.

Lollerskates · Jun 4, 2013

Douggg said:
But John is being told that the beast was already in the bottomless pit in his day. The beast will become the 8th king, of which 5 had already fallen. With one existing at the time. And the seventh king future of John's time.

It is an advanced study, but the crowns on the heads and horns of the beast portrait in Revelation 17, Revelation 12, Revelation 13 are all different - because they are taken at different periods of time.

Revelation 17 - 1st century
Revelation 12 - with 7 years to go before Jesus's Second Coming
Revelation 13 - with 42 months to go before Jesus's Return

The popes, none of them fit, as any of the kings.

John was not having a vision at all regarding the kings - he was being told by the angel what the horns and heads were, and where the actual beast was - because John could not see into the bottomless pit,

Revelation 17:7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

And the angel said regarding the seven kings "one is", not in the future, but right then at the time of John.

The prophecy of the 7 kings was not complete in the first century, so there are no crowns on the heads in Revelation 17:3

In Revelation 12, with 7 years to go before Jesus Returns, the 7 heads have their crowns, indicating that the 7th king has come to power, the end times Antichrist person. Nothing to do with a pope.

In Revelation 13, with 42 months to go before Jesus Returns, the 7 heads don't have crowns indicating that the prophecy of the 7 kings is over, with one of the heads (the 7th), the Antichrist, mortally wounded and recovered.

The beast is visible to John in Revelation 13, because he has ascended out of the bottomless pit to possess the recovered Antichrist. John doesn't have to be told by an angel anything in Revelation 13. In Revelation 12 and 17, the actual beast is still in the bottomless pit, so what John sees is Satan the power behind the beast.

Doug

Bible2 said:
Are you saying that a pope is the Antichrist? If so, note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Catholicism in its past and current form, insofar as Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Christ, whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Son of God, whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b). And Catholicism affirms that Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Catholicism affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that the only man who is God is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whereas the Antichrist will say that he (the Antichrist) is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that Lucifer (Satan) is evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Catholicism in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Catholicism in its current form (as well as Christianity generally, and also Islam), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

Let me research my argument/input some more (with your perspectives in mind) before I agree or disagree further. :wave:

Interplanner · Jun 4, 2013

Doug, re John 'already knew he/the beast was in the bottomless pit'
Hmmm, isn't that a scene from the millenium?

vinsight4u · Jun 6, 2013

yeshuasavedme · Jun 6, 2013

vinsight4u said:
Isaiah 21 has a new message starting - a new prophecy (a new burden) at verse 11.
Babylon spoken of in the prior section is the land where Iraq is now.

Isaiah 21 and Jeremiah 49 say nothing as to making the land of Saudi Arabia be referenced as Babylon's land.

Jeremiah 50-51 is a prophecy as to Babylon and it ends showing that the words are for only one place - Babylon. This place is where the message was given and then cast into the Euphrates River. Iraq's land will still be Babylon in the end days

If you want a city linked up with Babylon, check out the prophecies as to Tyre in Lebanon. David even notes considering himself king after the king of Tyre backed him.

The burden against Dumah” (Isaiah 21:11)
“The burden against Arabia” (Isaiah 21:13)
“All the glory of Kedar will fail” (Isaiah 21:16). These are all in Arabia, which is destroyed by Iran “Elam” (Isaiah 21:2).
There has been an immense oversight by many in the field of biblical eschatology: When it comes to the destruction of end-days Babylon, Scripture makes no mention of any of the ancient Babylonian cities – Nineveh, Ur, Babel, Erech, Accad, Sumer, Assur, Calneh, Mari, Karana, Ellpi, Eridu, Kish, or Tikrit. Rather, all the literal references in Scripture are in Arabia.

Saudi Arabia is the desert of the sea.

21:1 The burden of the desert of the sea. As whirlwinds in the south pass through; so it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.

yeshuasavedme · Jun 6, 2013

yeshuasavedme said:
The burden against Dumah (Isaiah 21:11)
The burden against Arabia (Isaiah 21:13)
All the glory of Kedar will fail (Isaiah 21:16). These are all in Arabia, which is destroyed by Iran Elam (Isaiah 21:2).
There has been an immense oversight by many in the field of biblical eschatology: When it comes to the destruction of end-days Babylon, Scripture makes no mention of any of the ancient Babylonian cities Nineveh, Ur, Babel, Erech, Accad, Sumer, Assur, Calneh, Mari, Karana, Ellpi, Eridu, Kish, or Tikrit. Rather, all the literal references in Scripture are in Arabia.

Saudi Arabia is the desert of the sea.

21:1 The burden of the desert of the sea. As whirlwinds in the south pass through; so it cometh from the desert, from a terrible land.

More, from the link in the OP:

...Furthermore, it is impossible to even consider that Isaiah 21 was regarding a historic battle between Persia and ancient Babylon since the multiple references throughout are not connected to ancient Iraq but to Kedar, Tema, Dedan and Dumah, which is in Saudi Arabia near Yathrib (Medina) and today is known as Dumat el-Jandal. Dumah, one of the sons of Ishmael, is also associated with Edom and Seir in Isaiah 21:11. It is believed by many that Kedar, Ishmaels sons, is the line from which Muhammad descended.
Even Muslims recognize this when they read Isaiah 21; they see Isaiah 21:14-15 as the story of Muhammad when the Muslims emigrated from Mecca to Medina (Tema) in which they were fed and rescued from the sword. No Westerner was able to interpret:
The inhabitants of the land of Tema brought water to him that was thirsty, they prevented with their bread him that fled. For they fled from the swords, from the drawn sword, and from the bent bow, and from the grievousness of war.
The Bible depicts that in this time, it will not be like the time when Muhammad fled; all Arabia, including the Glory of Kedar (Mecca), will be destroyed. How else can anyone interpret: No Arab will pitch his tent there, no shepherd will rest his flocks there (Isaiah 13:20)? Arabs pitch tents in Arabia, not Rome. The ultimate fulfillment of this verse is the destruction of the last-days Babylon. We know this because the passage speaks about the day of the Lord (v. 9) with the heavens not giving light (v. 10). This is not historical, but end-times related.
Then we have the Red Sea: The earth is moved at the noise of their fall, at the cry the noise thereof was heard in the Red Sea (Jeremiah 49:21). Red Sea is a geographic indicator as to where the last-days Babylon will be located. Look at Mecca on any map and you will see that it sits near the Red Sea. Some may object that Jeremiah 49 is speaking about Edom, which was primarily located in modern-day Jordan. Yet in Ezekiel 25 Edom stretches from Teman (Yemen) to Dedan (Saudi Arabia) (v. 13). Greater Edom included all of the west coast of the Arabian Peninsula.
Notice the description of her destruction: As Sodom and Gomorrah were overthrown, along with their neighboring towns, says the LORD, so no one will live there; no man will dwell in it (Jeremiah 49:18).
It is no wonder why Iran is focused on Saudi Arabia, since the Bible predicted that the harlot is destroyed by the beast she rides, that is, the nations she deceived with her spiritual harlotry Islam.

Bible2 · Jun 7, 2013

vinsight4u said in post 47:

If you want a city linked up with Babylon, check out the prophecies as to Tyre in Lebanon.

If Ezekiel 28:2 has application to future events, because of its similarity to the never-fulfilled 2 Thessalonians 2:4, then the prince of Tyre could be the future human ruler commonly called the Antichrist (Daniel 11:36, Revelation 13:5-18). If that's the case, then the king of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:12) could be Lucifer/Satan (the dragon), who will empower the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9). Lucifer, before his fall and man's fall, could have been placed as a covering cherub over Eden (Ezekiel 28:13-15).

There's a curious correlation between the prince and the king of Tyre on the one hand (Ezekiel 28), and the use of the name Hiram in the mystical teachings of a worldwide secret society which teaches Gnostic Luciferianism at its highest degree of initiation. For Hiram was the name of the human king of Tyre at the time of the building of King Solomon's temple (1 Kings 5). Also, Hiram was the name of another person from Tyre, the human master workman who helped Solomon build the temple (1 Kings 7:13-14). If the king and the prince of Tyre addressed in Ezekiel 28 are Lucifer and the Antichrist, then the name Hiram would be a perfect code name (not the actual name) for both of them, a name by which their identity within the Gnostic Luciferian teachings of the worldwide secret society could be kept secret from all but its highest-level initiates. Just as the human workman named Hiram built a temple to God in which all the world was to worship (1 Kings 8:41-43), so the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Revelation 13:4), when the Antichrist gains power over the earth (Revelation 13:7).

The Antichrist's future Luciferian rule over the earth could be pictured by the most common, publicly known symbol for the worldwide secret society, in which a drafting/measuring compass, an instrument shaped like the two legs of an "A" (as in "Antichrist"), is sometimes shown standing on top of a globe of the earth. And beneath, as in support of the "A" is a drafting/measuring square, an instrument shaped like an "L" (as in "Lucifer"). Also, found within the "L" is the letter "G", which could ultimately stand for the (false) "Gnosis" (knowledge) of Gnosticism (cf. the original Greek of 1 Timothy 6:20b), which the secret society (mistakenly) thinks can be found in Lucifer. The Antichrist will teach the ancient Gnostic lie that YHWH is evil (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36), and the ancient Gnostic lie that Christ isn't in the flesh (1 John 4:3). The Antichrist will also deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22).

vinsight4u · Jun 7, 2013

vinsight4u · Jun 7, 2013

vinsight4u · Jun 7, 2013

vinsight4u · Jun 7, 2013

yeshuasavedme · Jun 9, 2013

Old Saudi men purchase Syrian girls as young as 9 years old for sex slaves -but we know they also do the same for other nationals, too....this is telling about the current practice which fits the "Mecca is the Harlot" OP.

War casualties: Girls bought by perverted Saudis

Mecca is the Harlot, Not Rome

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