Daniel 8:23 a difficult verse explained

Douggg · Jun 2, 2013

vinsight4u said:
Where did the four horns grow?
In the place of the broken great horn.

Where does Daniel see the little horn come from?
one of the four horns

Where does the little horn come to? And in what manner?

He comes to Israel. In great strength. The little horn in Daniel 8 "stands up" in the latter time of the transgressors' kingdom. "Stands up" mans that he is set outs for war.

None of the countries of any of the four breakup empires have the military strength to fulfill the prophecy. And they are not the fourth empire.

One of the four breakup empires - is just identifying the location of where he will come from with a strong army in his bid to come down to Israel. The army itself is that of the ten king kingdom, the fourth empire, which is the EU in its final form.

Doug

vinsight4u · Jun 5, 2013

Douggg · Jun 5, 2013

vinsight4u said:
Daniel 8:8-9
"...the he goat waxed very great...four notable ones...out of one of them came..."

The little horn comes out of one of the four horns. Daniel is describing what happened during the vision. Daniel was still seeing the goat kingdom and out of one of its four horns -came the little horn.
This little horn was not seen as going to only one place. He went - east, south, and toward Israel. Daniel could have just stated - east, south, and west. The pleasant land of Israel is located to the west of the little horn of the four Greek horns.

goat
four horns
Daniel saw a little horn grow from one of the four horns.
The little horn waxed exceeding great in three specific directions from his land.

If this was just about heading to Israel - Daniel would not have stated "waxed exceeding great toward" three locations.
Each direction was waxed exceeding great toward by the little horn.

south
east
pleasant land

The little horn is not seen as heading south and then turning east or such.
The little horn is taking land -expanding his own kingdom.

Israel////kingdom////east
-----------south---------

They didn't use terms like "southeast" back in those day. To the south and east is just another way of saying southeast.

In Daniel 8:23, the king of fierce countenance shall stand up - that is a term that he is making an military move. That he waxes strong southeast to Israel goes hand and hand that he is coming to Israel as a military venture, and by peace he shall destroy many. He comes to Israel with a strong army with the contention of bringing peace.

Doug

vinsight4u · Jun 6, 2013

vinsight4u · Jun 6, 2013

vinsight4u · Jun 14, 2013

vinsight4u · Jun 14, 2013

Douggg · Jun 15, 2013

vinsight4u said:
Daniel 9 is telling about how the people of the prince - would destroy the city and the sanctuary. This means - the city that was rebuilt after the return from Babylon. It is not referring then to endtimes.

It destruction of the city and sanctuary were prophesied to be after the messiah is cutoff. That means Roman destruction of the city and sanctuary, following Jesus's death and resurrection.

Douggg · Jun 15, 2013

vinsight4u said:
Genesis 28:14 follows a similar pattern and it is showing different directions.

"shalt spread abroad" "to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south"

Daniel 8
"waxed excceeding great" "toward the south, and toward the east"

Genesis 28:14 is not about heading to a certain destination. Daniel 8 is about the destination being Israel.

Doug

Douggg · Jun 15, 2013

vinsight4u said:
For the goat attacking the ram, how did the goat get to the battle?

Did Daniel use multiple directions - as he went south some, then headed east some or such?
no - He came from the west.

"an he goat came from the west"

Now you want that same area of the world to be written of by Daniel using a blend of different directions.

They dd not use terms like southeast. The destination was Israel. To get there, the little horn will head southeast.

Regarding your reference to Daniel 8:5, emphasis on the word "from" the west. Not "to" the east, but "from" the west. The destination is the face of the whole earth. It just saying that Alexander coming from the west would conquer the world. And to do so, he would conquer the Medes and Persians.

5 And as I was considering, behold, an he goat came from the west on the face of the whole earth, and touched not the ground: and the goat had a notable horn between his eyes.

6 And he came to the ram that had two horns, which I had seen standing before the river, and ran unto him in the fury of his power.
7 And I saw him come close unto the ram, and he was moved with choler against him, and smote the ram, and brake his two horns: and there was no power in the ram to stand before him, but he cast him down to the ground, and stamped upon him: and there was none that could deliver the ram out of his hand.

vinsight4u · Jun 15, 2013

Douggg · Jun 15, 2013

vinsight4u said:
When Daniel saw the goat come from Grecia - did he say he went toward -and toward and toward> no -he came from the west.

Hi vinsight4u, with the goat being Alexander lead Greek empire, that's exactly the whole point, when the little horn comes up from one of the four horns. When the little horn arrives in Israel it will be from a place that is north and west of Israel. Which has to be coming to Israel with a strong army from the Macedonia region, i.e. Greece. Greece itself doesn't have a strong army, thus it has to be that Greece is the staging place of the strong army before the little horn heads down to Israel.

He "stands up" from the kingdom of the transgressors, when they will have come to their full strength, i.e. the ten kings. That he "stands up" indicates that he will be heading toward Israel with the intent of doing battle. .... which will be to stop the Gog/Magog invasion, either by heading it off, or with the intent of engaging, the bible is not clear either as to which.

The little horn after he arrives in Israel, the temple sacrifices will start again with the Muslims out of the way, and go on for a time, until the little horn reveals himself to be the man of sin, and stops the daily sacrifice. The little horn is the end times Antichrist, because he cannot be broken by human means, and makes war on the Prince of Princes Jesus.

Doug

vinsight4u · Jul 9, 2013

Douggg · Jul 9, 2013

vinsight4u said:
Hi Douggg,

The goat in Daniel 7 is not Alexander.
The great horn on the goat is the first king - Alexander.

I agree. Daniel 8:5. Here is what I wrote.... "with the goat being Alexander lead Greek empire".

All horns grow out of the goat.

Not directly though. The 4 horns do come directly out of the goat, after the great horn was broke off. They came up. So those are attached directly to the Greek Empire. Those are four KINGDOMS... coming out of the Greek Empire. Historically, we know what those four kingdoms were. Those are done and over with.

8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

The little horn, a king (not a kingdom), came forth out of one of those kingdoms. Since none of those four kingdoms exist any longer, it is talking about the territory. That is why I speculate that the Antichrist's country of origin will be Macedonia (western Greece Macedonia or the country of Macedonia) or one of the balkan states. (But not affiliated with some sort of end times Greek empire theory).

The key to Daniel 8:23 is to figure out who the "transgressors" are. The transgressors are not the four kingdoms. But the ten kings who will rule with the Antichrist.

8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The verse 8:23 doesn't make sense if we substitute the "four kingdoms" from verse 22 for the "their" in verse 23, does it? Take a look. Here is that substitution test run...

23 And in the latter time of the "four kingdoms" kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

So the task is to figure out who those transgressors are who will be in league with the Antichrist when the Abomination of Desolation takes place... to figure out what "their" kingdom is.

For that, we have to go to Daniel 7 and Revelation 17. In Revelation 17, the ten kings align with the Antichrist. In Daniel 7, the ten kings have "their kingdom" which is the fourth kingdom which the little horn comes up among those ten kings of that fourth kingdom.

The fourth kingdom is the one after the Greek empire. It is the Roman Empire, and in the case of the little horn the end times Roman Empire.

The EU is the only power block in that part of the world that has the military strength to carry out the will of the Antichrist. We are just not at that final ten king ruling body stage yet.

The EU began around the same time that Israel became a nation again, and has been evolving going through stages. We have been watching that happen. When it gets to the ten kings, it will be in the latter time of the EU kingdom. That's when the little horn will emerge.

Doug

vinsight4u · Jul 11, 2013

tranquil · Jul 11, 2013

Douggg said:
I agree. Daniel 8:5. Here is what I wrote.... "with the goat being Alexander lead Greek empire".

Not directly though. The 4 horns do come directly out of the goat, after the great horn was broke off. They came up. So those are attached directly to the Greek Empire. Those are four KINGDOMS... coming out of the Greek Empire. Historically, we know what those four kingdoms were. Those are done and over with.
The little horn, a king (not a kingdom), came forth out of one of those kingdoms. Since none of those four kingdoms exist any longer, it is talking about the territory. That is why I speculate that the Antichrist's country of origin will be Macedonia (western Greece Macedonia or the country of Macedonia) or one of the balkan states. (But not affiliated with some sort of end times Greek empire theory).

The key to Daniel 8:23 is to figure out who the "transgressors" are. The transgressors are not the four kingdoms. But the ten kings who will rule with the Antichrist.

The verse 8:23 doesn't make sense if we substitute the "four kingdoms" from verse 22 for the "their" in verse 23, does it? Take a look. Here is that substitution test run...So the task is to figure out who those transgressors are who will be in league with the Antichrist when the Abomination of Desolation takes place... to figure out what "their" kingdom is.

For that, we have to go to Daniel 7 and Revelation 17. In Revelation 17, the ten kings align with the Antichrist. In Daniel 7, the ten kings have "their kingdom" which is the fourth kingdom which the little horn comes up among those ten kings of that fourth kingdom.

The fourth kingdom is the one after the Greek empire. It is the Roman Empire, and in the case of the little horn the end times Roman Empire.

The EU is the only power block in that part of the world that has the military strength to carry out the will of the Antichrist. We are just not at that final ten king ruling body stage yet.

The EU began around the same time that Israel became a nation again, and has been evolving going through stages. We have been watching that happen. When it gets to the ten kings, it will be in the latter time of the EU kingdom. That's when the little horn will emerge.

Doug

I guess I don't understand what this thread is about. There really isn't anything confusing. In modern terms, Daniel's prophecies reads like this:

There is 70 years that the eagle w/ wings that is dominant (UK/US), then the bear/ Russia is dominant, then the 3rd king (an EU dictator) dies killing the bear/ the ram of Dan. 8/ Russia and Iran which topples the EU dictatorship and forms the EU 4 pretty much simultaneous with the end of Russian dominance.

This EU 4/ leopard is Mystery Babylon/ the Catholic Church ruling the EU, which rules in the 1st half of the 7 year trib (the Catholic church is the harlot of Babylon/ not the antichrist, but instead is the decoy antichrist - which is why there are so many people expounding so hard about it, trying to deceive people into worshipping the little horn who will destroy the Pope and Catholicism). Towards the end of the 1260 day alotted rule, the 10 kings under the direction of the antichrist/ little horn will destroy the Pope/ harlot of Babylon, tricking people into thinking they have their true messiah.

The key to Daniel 8:23 is to figure out who the "transgressors" are. The transgressors are not the four kingdoms. But the ten kings who will rule with the Antichrist.

8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

The verse 8:23 doesn't make sense if we substitute the "four kingdoms" from verse 22 for the "their" in verse 23, does it? Take a look. Here is that substitution test run...

23 And in the latter time of the "four kingdoms" kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

So the task is to figure out who those transgressors are who will be in league with the Antichrist when the Abomination of Desolation takes place... to figure out what "their" kingdom is.

For that, we have to go to Daniel 7 and Revelation 17. In Revelation 17, the ten kings align with the Antichrist. In Daniel 7, the ten kings have "their kingdom" which is the fourth kingdom which the little horn comes up among those ten kings of that fourth kingdom.

Yes, we are now in the 4th beast kingdom era, but here is how I understand it, as a simple repeated pattern/ prophecy with cycles within cycles.

There are 70 years of Roman controlled lion w/ eagle wings (Rome's UK/ US), then Roman controlled Russia, then Roman controlled Grecia/ the EU 4, then Roman controlled Rome. Then the rule of the antichrist.

Substitute "mystery babylon" for the '4 kingdoms' kingdom (the 3rd beast).

23 And in the latter time of the "Mystery Babylon" kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

This is why it has been engineered such that there are 2 Popes now. Pope Bergoglio rules/ will rule Roman controlled Grecia/ 4 headed leopard. Then 10 kings get with Pope Benedict to overthrow Pope Bergoglio (thus Pope Benedict appears to be the 'Roman controlled Rome'/ the 4th beast of the 70 year set - which is then followed by God's wrath of the 4 horsemen), then those same 10 kings or another set of 10 kings get with the little horn to depose Pope Benedict (apparently this phase doesn't last more than a year or so since Bergoglio's 1260 days are up 8-24-16 and the mid-point of the 7 year trib is roughly Sept/ Oct 2017).

.

Douggg · Jul 11, 2013

tranquil said:
There is 70 years that the eagle w/ wings that is dominant (UK/US), then the bear/ Russia is dominant, then the 3rd king (an EU dictator) dies killing the bear/ the ram of Dan. 8/ Russia and Iran which topples the EU dictatorship and forms the EU 4 pretty much simultaneous with the end of Russian dominance.

How in the world are you getting any of that from the prophecies in Daniel?

Doug

Douggg · Jul 11, 2013

vinsight4u said:
out of one

The clues are to learn which piece of the Greek empire came out the little horn.

waxing...great is as to different directions

It does not say that he went a bit south, then turned east, then ended up in Israel.

It doesn't say that the little horn comes out the Greek empire, but one of the four breakup kingdoms. None of those four breakup kingdoms exist anymore. So it is the territory, the location, because that is all that is left.

The same thing goes for the body of the first beast in Revelation 13. The leopard, the bear, the lion - none of those exist anymore. So it is that the end times fourth empire will have gained control of the territories of those former empires at the time of the Antichrist-beast's 42 months.

Doug

vinsight4u · Feb 26, 2014

Daniel 8:23 a difficult verse explained

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