Philosophies of men mingled with scriptures

williamgramsmith

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The church is the individual believers. There is no organization that is "the church". Given that truth, it is impossible for the church to persecute the church.

That is not a "truth", that's a falsehood, because the Bible clearly teaches an authorized and authoritative Church was set up by Christ. Those who deny this are follow a religion, not the Bible.

Believers persecuting each other is incomprehensible. Believers combating heresies, that I can see, but combating each other? No.

But without an actual "church", you have no clue OR authority to claim what is "heresy" and what isn't. Your "opinion" is not God's authority and truth, thus you are only persecuting other believers by combating their so-called heresy's.

Further, it's one thing to preach the Gospel and against certain things such as the Apostles did in their letters, but another to go against Christ's words in Mark 9, Luke 9, & Matthew 18 concerning other believers, as well as to bear false witness against them in order to be critical of them. Since 99% of what our critics say of us is falsehood, perversion, and misrepresentation, I don't see how you can claim you aren't "offending" other believers as we claim and Christ warns against in those chapters, and thus how you can believe you are following God's Doctrines?

What is funny is that LDS really wouldn't have much of a problem with our enemy's if they actually were simply critical of who we actually are, instead of their straw-men. I'm all for difference of opinion concerning what a person personally holds sacred. But to misrepresent and lie about people to attack them, that's something else don't you think?
 
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RevelationTestament

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The church is the individual believers. There is no organization that is "the church". Given that truth, it is impossible for the church to persecute the church. Believers persecuting each other is incomprehensible. Believers combating heresies, that I can see, but combating each other? No.

You make my point so easily. "Believers combating heresies" - like the RCC combating the Albigensesians, Waldensians, etc, etc, etc?

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of יהוה, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
 
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A New Dawn

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That is not a "truth", that's a falsehood, because the Bible clearly teaches an authorized and authoritative Church was set up by Christ. Those who deny this are follow a religion, not the Bible.
It is not a falsehood. There was no authorized or authoritative church organization set up by Christ. Just because Christ chose 12 men to travel with him, and sent 70 out to let people know that the King has arrived and to gather the people, doesn't mean that he organized a church. There is clearly no record of Christ starting a church.

But without an actual "church", you have no clue OR authority to claim what is "heresy" and what isn't. Your "opinion" is not God's authority and truth, thus you are only persecuting other believers by combating their so-called heresy's.
I do have a clue as to what heresy is or isn't. I have God living in me, opening my understanding and guiding the way. And Christ told us to combat heresies, and we do so by way of the Spirit living in us.

Further, it's one thing to preach the Gospel and against certain things such as the Apostles did in their letters, but another to go against Christ's words in Mark 9, Luke 9, & Matthew 18 concerning other believers, as well as to bear false witness against them in order to be critical of them. Since 99% of what our critics say of us is falsehood, perversion, and misrepresentation, I don't see how you can claim you aren't "offending" other believers as we claim and Christ warns against in those chapters, and thus how you can believe you are following God's Doctrines?
Nobody is bearing false witness against other believers. We are combating heresies, which we have been commanded to do.
 
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samcarternx

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You make my point so easily. "Believers combating heresies" - like the RCC combating the Albigensesians, Waldensians, etc, etc, etc?

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of יהוה, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
The true church is not divided or it would not stand, but fall as mens' attempts to set up their agenda in place of the true gospel of God, brought to us by His Son Jesus Christ and communicated to us by His eyewitnesses. He gave us a way to prove that His words came from the Father by denying ourselves, picking up our cross, and following Him. I did so and my testimony is added to the others, that they are. Any other gospels are different from Pauls' and should be discarded. Remember as well there is a cursed embedded in changing the truth.
 
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RevelationTestament

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The true church is not divided or it would not stand, but fall as mens' attempts to set up their agenda in place of the true gospel of God, brought to us by His Son Jesus Christ and communicated to us by His eyewitnesses. He gave us a way to prove that His words came from the Father by denying ourselves, picking up our cross, and following Him. I did so and my testimony is added to the others, that they are. Any other gospels are different from Pauls' and should be discarded. Remember as well there is a cursed embedded in changing the truth.

Woe, woe there. Any gospel different from Christ's should be discarded, including Paul if he is different, which I don't see him being significantly different - although I question the wisdom of his comments regarding marriage, even though he said it was not by way of commandment. I do not believe Christ gave one gospel to the Jews, and Paul a different one to the Gentiles if that is what you are getting at. Are you implying that I am "changing the truth?"
I echo your sentiment that we would better follow Christ by denying ourselves, and picking up His cross, and following Him.
I don't see much of this in traditional Christianity.
 
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Raimi Stranger

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Woe, woe there. Any gospel different from Christ's should be discarded, including Paul if he is different, which I don't see him being significantly different - although I question the wisdom of his comments regarding marriage, even though he said it was not by way of commandment. I do not believe Christ gave one gospel to the Jews, and Paul a different one to the Gentiles if that is what you are getting at. Are you implying that I am "changing the truth?"
I echo your sentiment that we would better follow Christ by denying ourselves, and picking up His cross, and following Him.
I don't see much of this in traditional Christianity.

Paul's wisdom about marriage being a great distraction from Love of God and thus of all men by the pressures of pleasing a spouse is echoed by Jesus' revelation :-

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

1 Corinthians 7:33 But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife.
34 There is difference also between a wife and a virgin. The unmarried woman careth for the things of the Lord, that she may be holy both in body and in spirit: but she that is married careth for the things of the world, how she may please her husband.

Paul is simply explaining why saints [those who actually follow Jesus' command to Love, not sin any more, are almost exclusively not married -and have no interest in sex outside marriage like most these days]

The work of searching the whole world set by Jesus for the few saints of this life is almost incompatible with marriage and saints risk their lives continually for sake of Love so it is a life one's spouse cannot be expected to tolerate unless a saint themselves ... bear in mind how few are saints , most will not stop sinning, certainly not most religious and it is obviously a terrible sin that so many pretend to be holy priests who are just sinners looking for an 'easy' life of abuse like other sinners... that is the irony of man being able to lie to ourselves because sin never made life easy or happy, just one of Satan's lies about sin that it does any good to anyone , yet few in THIS life find the way of Love with no more sin that Jesus said is the only way to be saved ... work it out [Jude 1:14, Rev 7:3-4] , about two thousand saints scattered worldwide doing Jesus' work he set and all teh rest of man-unkind living by sin all their lives because it is 'normal' to live by lies of capitalism, religion, modern life, etc... it doesn't end until after Rev 13:3-4, Satan unites the world against the few saints and again saints die for 'heresy' against Satan's lying religion... Jesus comes back early to save the last few else Satan would kill them all... but life as a saint really is not for the married man who wants to 'settle down' to the ways of sin of this world, tolerating them and not caring for the poor it generates [from not sharing, not caring, not Loving all] and kills [50,000 pre day STARVE in misery ... mostly little kids whom God Loves because they never were corrupted by this world... but there are too few saints to save them now and most men care not that their lives are bought by death of others because they will not share what was given by God...

but as I posted earlier in the thread, Jesus showed us how to identify false gospels because Satan will never acknowledge Jesus' anointing by Mary as the Christ.... so mass religion never does ... most flks have no idea what a Christ is [anointed king of Israel sent to re-unite the two nations, the Jews just being the minority nation of the two of Israel]

Mark 14:9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

Ezekiel 37:22 And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:

Exodus 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Matthew 15:24 But he [Jesus] answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

How can anyone raed the bible and not see these verses, but very few register these rather deep truths that destroy the fake stories of mass religion of sinners under Satan leading to utter apostasy -Rev 13:3-4
 
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A New Dawn

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I echo your sentiment that we would better follow Christ by denying ourselves, and picking up His cross, and following Him.
I don't see much of this in traditional Christianity.

If you don't then you aren't looking, or worse, you are purposely closing your eyes.
 
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Raimi Stranger

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I agree with much of what you say, but I would also say that we need to examine all of God's words. Not just those found in the Bible which was compiled by uninspired man.

it's not i who said these things originally, they are indeed simply staed repeatedly many ways even in our tortured bibles ... and indeed no saint would ever translate scripture because Jesus died so that the Truth would come to his few saints DIRECTLY from God, no chance of corruption...

but sinners put faith in religion of sinners , which grabs their belief from belief in Love which is all we can know of God until spirit baptism [which is beyond our current words referring only to this world]

Jesu teaches a very different approach to knowing the Truth , it is not by 'theology' or by listening to preachers of easy salvation without ceasing from sin [no real repentance necessary, just lies to oneself that sin is OK so long as one says a few words and pays the soothsayer]

Jesus says otherwise , echoed by the true saints who have follwoed the way of Love, no more sin abusing folks :-

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

so God teaches all who obey Jesus as Lord and Love... sin is abuse, not Love! :-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

departing from iniquity is NOT 'confessing ' every week the same old sins one will keep doing until death... Jesus came to DESTROY sin, not peropetuate it all one's life by non-repentance in 'confessions' to sinners [who in fact cannot forgive sins anyway, but even God will not give grace until one STOPS sinning, grace is only for sins that are PAST, not still present ...

Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

sin is FORBIDDEN by God for any under grace , the scripture has a very DIFFERENT message about grace than the churches of mass religion of sinners led by sinners dressed up in frocks to pretend they are priests [Jesus and saints never dressed up as OT priests like this , forb the reason that they are not OT priests! - and their authority of God si Love which ALL sinners lack, whether they dress up in pretence or not] :-

Romans 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
 
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williamgramsmith

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It is not a falsehood. There was no authorized or authoritative church organization set up by Christ. Just because Christ chose 12 men to travel with him, and sent 70 out to let people know that the King has arrived and to gather the people, doesn't mean that he organized a church. There is clearly no record of Christ starting a church.

So, prior to my being a Mormon, and I read all these scriptures in the Bible that showed an authoritative and organized Church, with leaders and offices at various levels, authorized practices etc., in your view it was only in "my imagination"???

In your view, the currently what 12 Million members living of the Church, it's also in our "imagination" when we see an organized and authorized Church in the Bible?

It's also in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Ethiopian Churches "imaginations" that Christ and His Apostles LITERALLY set up their churches and they are still here today, they being among the "Seven Churches" the Bible itself speaks of???

It just fascinates me how people who supposedly "read" their Bibles can even say this and think they are being honest of what the Bible states when they say things like this that are so blatantly false.

I do have a clue as to what heresy is or isn't. I have God living in me, opening my understanding and guiding the way. And Christ told us to combat heresies, and we do so by way of the Spirit living in us.

Ya, Mormons don't have "God living in them".... :o
Actually Christ didn't say that. He said "defend the faith" "for the hope that you have." (actually an Apostle said that, I don't recall Christ saying anything directly). Attacking other Faith is not "defending the Faith". LDS follow the command to defend the Faith. You attack Faith.

Notice the words also? "For the hope that you have", used along with "defending the faith". The for the hope part even makes more clear that the "defense" is to be of YOUR OWN beliefs, not attacking other beliefs.

Further, when Christ spoke directly concerning other believers that were not with the Church, nor had their authority, and the Apostles tried to do EXACTLY what you people do to LDS, Christ gave a clear explanation and a harsh warning on this very subject. Mark 9, Luke 9, Matthew 18.

More so, Paul who's believed to have been the biggest Apologist of all, hardly uttered a word "directly" about false teachings.

Nobody is bearing false witness against other believers. We are combating heresies, which we have been commanded to do.

As someone who's beliefs you call "heresies", you all most certainly bear false witness in almost everything you say about us. You don't think so, but since they are OUR beliefs, we would actually know better you know.

Further, Christ's OWN WORDS, state to Preach the Gospel, and not to offend other believers. So, which are you going to believe an "interpretation" from various scriptures for which there were some critical actions and words, or Christ's OWN WORDS directly on the subject???

LDS follow Christ's words....
 
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A New Dawn

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So, prior to my being a Mormon, and I read all these scriptures in the Bible that showed an authoritative and organized Church, with leaders and offices at various levels, authorized practices etc., in your view it was only in "my imagination"???

Show me where he organized a church. We have the records of when JS organized a church, so show me where Christ organized a church. I want to see the statement of faith of the church Christ established, I want to see the name of the church, I want to see the minutes from the meeting. Something that tells me that Christ did more than just send people out to where he was going so there would be people gathered to preach to. Anything.

You can't because He didn't institute an organization. His "ekklesia" was the gathering of believers. That's it. No formal church was started till Christ returned from the resurrection and told them to take the gospel to the world. It's all right there in the Bible.
 
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Ran77

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So, prior to my being a Mormon, and I read all these scriptures in the Bible that showed an authoritative and organized Church, with leaders and offices at various levels, authorized practices etc., in your view it was only in "my imagination"???

In your view, the currently what 12 Million members living of the Church, it's also in our "imagination" when we see an organized and authorized Church in the Bible?

It's also in the Catholic, Orthodox, and Ethiopian Churches "imaginations" that Christ and His Apostles LITERALLY set up their churches and they are still here today, they being among the "Seven Churches" the Bible itself speaks of???

It just fascinates me how people who supposedly "read" their Bibles can even say this and think they are being honest of what the Bible states when they say things like this that are so blatantly false.



Ya, Mormons don't have "God living in them".... :o
Actually Christ didn't say that. He said "defend the faith" "for the hope that you have." (actually an Apostle said that, I don't recall Christ saying anything directly). Attacking other Faith is not "defending the Faith". LDS follow the command to defend the Faith. You attack Faith.

Notice the words also? "For the hope that you have", used along with "defending the faith". The for the hope part even makes more clear that the "defense" is to be of YOUR OWN beliefs, not attacking other beliefs.

Further, when Christ spoke directly concerning other believers that were not with the Church, nor had their authority, and the Apostles tried to do EXACTLY what you people do to LDS, Christ gave a clear explanation and a harsh warning on this very subject. Mark 9, Luke 9, Matthew 18.

More so, Paul who's believed to have been the biggest Apologist of all, hardly uttered a word "directly" about false teachings.



As someone who's beliefs you call "heresies", you all most certainly bear false witness in almost everything you say about us. You don't think so, but since they are OUR beliefs, we would actually know better you know.

Further, Christ's OWN WORDS, state to Preach the Gospel, and not to offend other believers. So, which are you going to believe an "interpretation" from various scriptures for which there were some critical actions and words, or Christ's OWN WORDS directly on the subject???

LDS follow Christ's words....


:clap:

Excellent post.


:clap:
 
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samcarternx

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Woe, woe there. Any gospel different from Christ's should be discarded, including Paul if he is different, which I don't see him being significantly different - although I question the wisdom of his comments regarding marriage, even though he said it was not by way of commandment. I do not believe Christ gave one gospel to the Jews, and Paul a different one to the Gentiles if that is what you are getting at. Are you implying that I am "changing the truth?"
I echo your sentiment that we would better follow Christ by denying ourselves, and picking up His cross, and following Him.
I don't see much of this in traditional Christianity.
No you don't and neither do I. What I see is men doing their best to set up their own agenda in place of God's agenda. I don't pick out individual denominations because they are all trying to do the same.
 
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joneysd

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Woe, woe there. Any gospel different from Christ's should be discarded, including Paul if he is different, which I don't see him being significantly different - although I question the wisdom of his comments regarding marriage, even though he said it was not by way of commandment. I do not believe Christ gave one gospel to the Jews, and Paul a different one to the Gentiles if that is what you are getting at. Are you implying that I am "changing the truth?"
I echo your sentiment that we would better follow Christ by denying ourselves, and picking up His cross, and following Him.
I don't see much of this in traditional Christianity.

if any gospel other than from Christ should be discarded then the BOM goes straight out the window.
 
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RevelationTestament

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if any gospel other than from Christ should be discarded then the BOM goes straight out the window.
The problem for you is that you have to SHOW it being different - which you never have. You just declare it, and expect everyone to believe you. I actually had a REAL conversation with Albion about it - whether it was unbiblical or not, and he came up with blanks....
Next you will jump to some quote of Joseph Smith, and abandon your allegation about the BOM....
 
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joneysd

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The problem for you is that you have to SHOW it being different - which you never have. You just declare it, and expect everyone to believe you. I actually had a REAL conversation with Albion about it - whether it was unbiblical or not, and he came up with blanks....
Next you will jump to some quote of Joseph Smith, and abandon your allegation about the BOM....

the problem with you is you cannot see it when you are shown the doifference.

does the bible teach joseph smith judges who goes to heaven.

does the bible teach plurality of gods.

does the bible teach God was a man before he was God.

the BOM is clearly a different gospel.
 
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the problem with you is you cannot see it when you are shown the doifference.

does the bible teach joseph smith judges who goes to heaven.

does the bible teach plurality of gods.

does the bible teach God was a man before he was God.

the BOM is clearly a different gospel.

Actually, the BoM doesn't teach any of that. The BoM is very similar to the Bible in many respects, and is very Trinitarian in nature. It is the Doctrine & Covenants which determines doctrine in the LDS church.
 
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joneysd

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Actually, the BoM doesn't teach any of that. The BoM is very similar to the Bible in many respects, and is very Trinitarian in nature. It is the Doctrine & Covenants which determines doctrine in the LDS church.

thats very weird as the LDS in here claim the trinity is rubbish and is not biblical, even though joseph smith believed it when he first started.
 
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samcarternx

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It's so misleading to ask people to read the book of Mormon and pray about it instead of asking them to read the Doctrine and Covenants.
I don't need another bible and neither does anyone else. The reason you see so much nonsense is so few are doing what He said. "It is not enough to hear my words, you must do them" "...those that do the will of the Father."
 
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