Self Defense

Belk · May 31, 2013

drew89 said:
Registration defeats the intent of the Second Amendment: to protect us from government tyranny. The government should not know what weapons I have, or even that I have weapons at all. The feasability of that in modern times is irrelevant. The purpose of the amendment was NOT to protect self defense, hunting, or sport shooting.

In what way does it defeat the intent? Simply by knowing you are armed instead of just might be armed gives the government what new power?

Belk · May 31, 2013

drew89 said:
The government should assume citizens are law abiding until they prove otherwise. The burden is not on the citizen to prove they are capable of handling a gun; it is on the government to prove they are not capable (without violating anyone's rights). Innocent until proven guilty, just as in court. Let harsher consequences be the disincentive for breaking gun laws. Do you think criminals who plan on murdering someone are going to follow gun laws? There will always be a black market for guns. The war on drugs has actually boosted the black market for drugs.

Do you think people planning on murdering one another make up the majority of gun violence? That criminals do not follow laws is tautological. We still have laws in place to try to limit the damage. Drunks still drive but we have adopted a multi faceted approach to drunk driving that has reduced the rates by a significant margin in 20 years. Why can we not do the same with guns?

drew89 · May 31, 2013

Belk said:
In what way does it defeat the intent? Simply by knowing you are armed instead of just might be armed gives the government what new power?

Knowing who has guns and where they are sure makes it easier to confiscate them.

drew89 · May 31, 2013

Belk said:
Do you think people planning on murdering one another make up the majority of gun violence? That criminals do not follow laws is tautological. We still have laws in place to try to limit the damage. Drunks still drive but we have adopted a multi faceted approach to drunk driving that has reduced the rates by a significant margin in 20 years. Why can we not do the same with guns?

What do you think makes up the majority of violent crime? How well do you think drug laws are working against drug crime? I'm sure you will have some sort of excuse why that is different...

Belk · May 31, 2013

drew89 said:
Knowing who has guns and where they are sure makes it easier to confiscate them.

And would not going around confiscating weapons kick off the kind of revolt you are talking about needing the guns for in the first place?

Belk · May 31, 2013

drew89 said:
What do you think makes up the majority of violent crime? How well do you think drug laws are working against drug crime? I'm sure you will have some sort of excuse why that is different...

I might have an excuse but I'm not sure what you are asking. Can you rephrase your question?

drew89 · May 31, 2013

Belk said:
And would not going around confiscating weapons kick off the kind of revolt you are talking about needing the guns for in the first place?

Once guns are registered we have no way of knowing if or when guns will ever be confiscated. Maybe the current administration won't, but maybe in 20 years they will and it will be much easier since they know where to go to get the guns.

drew89 · May 31, 2013

Belk said:
I might have an excuse but I'm not sure what you are asking. Can you rephrase your question?

Have drug laws helped the drug problem in the U.S.? If so, how (quantitatively)?

Belk · May 31, 2013

drew89 said:
Once guns are registered we have no way of knowing if or when guns will ever be confiscated. Maybe the current administration won't, but maybe in 20 years they will and it will be much easier since they know where to go to get the guns.

Can you make a case that confiscation is likely to happen in the future? Not a hypothetical situation but an actual case? Personally given that we have constitutional protections in place and consistent court and legislative support coupled with the power of pro gun rights groups I find the idea of a weapon confiscation very unlikely unless there is a significant shift in culture.

Belk · May 31, 2013

drew89 said:
Have drug laws helped the drug problem in the U.S.? If so, how (quantitatively)?

Yes, though not as much as one would hope. 278,687 arrests in 2011 for manufacture or sale of drugs.

drew89 · May 31, 2013

Belk said:
Can you make a case that confiscation is likely to happen in the future? Not a hypothetical situation but an actual case? Personally given that we have constitutional protections in place and consistent court and legislative support coupled with the power of pro gun rights groups I find the idea of a weapon confiscation very unlikely unless there is a significant shift in culture.

How can you make a case for something that might happen in the future that is not hypothetical? The fact that we are talking about "future" and "might" necessarily makes it hypothetical. Yes, we have Constitutional protections, but our government does not always follow the Consitution. See the Patriot Act.

drew89 · May 31, 2013

Belk said:
Yes, though not as much as one would hope. 278,687 arrests in 2011 for manufacture or sale of drugs.

I'm not sure the number of arrests is a good indicator of whether the drug war is working. Is the drug war more of a success if we arrest 200,000 80 year old grandmas smoking weed in their own homes or if we arrest 10,000 violent gang members?

Belk · May 31, 2013

drew89 said:
How can you make a case for something that might happen in the future that is not hypothetical? The fact that we are talking about "future" and "might" necessarily makes it hypothetical. Yes, we have Constitutional protections, but our government does not always follow the Consitution. See the Patriot Act.

Fair point. What I was asking for is some sort of trending data that actually points to the likely hood of this scenario coming to pass. How likely would you rate a scenario of mass gun confiscation in the US?

Belk · May 31, 2013

drew89 said:
I'm not sure the number of arrests is a good indicator of whether the drug war is working. Is the drug war more of a success if we arrest 200,000 80 year old grandmas smoking weed in their own homes or if we arrest 10,000 violent gang members?

Obviously not. If the drug war is not working up to our expectations should we abandon all drug laws?

drew89 · May 31, 2013

Belk said:
Fair point. What I was asking for is some sort of trending data that actually points to the likely hood of this scenario coming to pass. How likely would you rate a scenario of mass gun confiscation in the US?

The trend in public opinion and media influence is what worries me the most. Every time someone gets shot it makes national news and we hear people demanding more gun laws. The only thing keeping them at bay is the fact that gun rights advocates are some of the most vocal politically. Voting for any gun control measure is suicide for most Republicans. However, if the trend continues, there are many who would like to see all guns confiscated. If all semi-autos were banned I would consider that nearly as bad as confiscation.

drew89 · May 31, 2013

Belk said:
Obviously not. If the drug war is not working up to our expectations should we abandon all drug laws?

We should have never had drug laws in the first place. It is a victimless crime.

ChristOurCaptain · May 31, 2013

drew89 said:
We should have never had drug laws in the first place. It is a victimless crime.

That's one of the most short-sighted posts I've read in a long, long time.

drew89 · Jun 4, 2013

ChristOurCaptain said:
That's one of the most short-sighted posts I've read in a long, long time.

Please explain.

Panzerkamfwagen · Jun 4, 2013

Belk said:
Fair point. What I was asking for is some sort of trending data that actually points to the likely hood of this scenario coming to pass. How likely would you rate a scenario of mass gun confiscation in the US?

New Orleans 2005.
The California SKS thing.

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