Catholic views of salvation.....

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I can eat 50 eggs

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Ok guys, help me out here. My wife is finally warming up to the church, but has some questions. She wanted me to get the answers from yall, first because you can explain it in a different way then what I have already, and second, to make sure I've gotten everything correct.

Right now, she has these questions.....

 

1. A child is born. Before being baptised, it dies. What happens to the soul?

2. A child is born, is baptised, then dies shortly there after, while still an infant. What happens in this case?

depending on the answers to the above questions, she will have more. Thanks for helping us out!
 

geocajun

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Originally posted by I can eat 50 eggs


1. A child is born. Before being baptised, it dies. What happens to the soul?



First of all, this is a mystery - we know that man is bound by the sacraments, but we also know that God is not bound by the sacraments.
Well no doubt we are all born stained with origional sin, and the child would be as well.
These verses are inspirational for hope of the unbaptized who have died:
Matthew 8:5-13
We hear the words of this centurion at every Catholic Mass "Lord, I am not worthy to receive you, only say the word, and I shall be healed" (this is paraphrased from scripture).
Jesus says to the centurion (again paraphrased) "Go, your faith has saved him"
This is profound, because the servant who was saved did *nothing* - showed no faith, no input at all..
This centurions faith cured the servent.

also see the following paragraphs from the Catechism:

Sacraments are need for salvation of believers:
1129. "The Church affirms that for believers the sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for salvation.[Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1604.] 'Sacramental grace' is the grace of the Holy Spirit, given by Christ and proper to each sacrament. The Spirit heals and transforms those who receive him by conforming them to the Son of God. The fruit of the sacramental life is that the Spirit of adoption makes the faithful partakers in the divine nature[Cf. 2Pet 1:4.] by uniting them in a living union with the only Son, the Savior."

God is not bound by the Sacraments:
1257. "The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.[Cf. Jn 3:5 .] He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.[Cf. Mt 28:19-20; cf. Council of Trent (1547) DS 1618; LG 14; AG 5.] Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.[Cf. Mk 16:16 .] The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are 'reborn of water and the Spirit.' God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments."

2. A child is born, is baptised, then dies shortly there after, while still an infant. What happens in this case?

well the Child is washed clean from the stain of origional sin at this point, and not culpable until they reach the age of reason.
Though this baby may never be offically canonized a Saint, it is reasonable to conclude that since this baby would have died in a state of justification, it would go to heaven.
 
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isshinwhat

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The answer to both of your questions is rooted in the nature of Original Sin. OS is not a personal sin, but a fallen state. The Catechism states in sections 404-405 that "ORIGINAL SIN is called 'SIN' only in an analogical sense: it is a SIN 'contracted' and not 'committed' - a state and not an act. Although it is proper to each individual, ORIGINAL SIN does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam's descendants. It is a deprivation of ORIGINAL holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to SIN - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence'. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ's grace, erases ORIGINAL SIN and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle."

A child is born into a fallen, but not totally corrupt state. Thus the general consensus among current theologians is that a child who hasn't reached the age of reason cannot be held accountable for his personal sins. That added with the fact that we are born into a fallen state, but not into actual personal sin, leads them to believe that children who have not been Baptized and who have not reached the age of reason will enter Heaven. That is not an official position, for one doesn't exist other than we cannot teach with any certainty one way or the other whether unbaptized children go to Heaven, but we must trust in the Lord that His judgment will be the correct one... and we must pray for them.

The answer to the second would be the child is in Heaven.

God Bless,

Neal
 
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chelcb

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Eggs,

1. A child is born. Before being baptised, it dies. What happens to the soul? 

We leave them to the mercy of God. We can hope that God who desires that all be saved will provide salvation for the child especially since Jesus says “let the little children come to me.”

2. A child is born, is baptised, then dies shortly there after, while still an infant. What happens in this case? 

 The child when baptized became perfectly united to God as his child. The baptized soul is sanctified and since an infant has no personal sin and is so completely innocent he/she has become the most beautiful soul to God second to the soul of his own Mother and is in heaven with them both, the trinity and the Mother of God with all the angels and saints. (These are my opinions, not official Church teachings but I do not think that they go against the Church.)
 
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jukesk9

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Heaven, on both counts.  That was one of my wife's big stumbling blocks before she went through RCIA.  She was concerned about 'limbo.'  It's amazing how some folks' concerns (when converting) are about purgatory, communion of saints, etc. but your wife and mine shared what you posted. 
 
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I can eat 50 eggs

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thanks for your answers, that's pretty much what I told her, but it's really helped her to have it confirmed.

Ok, now here second question......

ok, after being baptized, when does that baptism stop being sufficient to get you into heaven? Can someone elaborate on the "age of reason" I know that young children can sin long before they can reason, so what happens to those sins?
 
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chelcb

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We baptize babies. Babies are pure innocent perfectly sanctified souls. As they grow, we as parents shape their faith by our instruction and example. At the age of reason with continued education we teach the children what sin is and the differences between mortal and venial sins.

At the age of reason the children make their first confession and they receive their first communion. Justification that is given in baptism doesn't cease ever. Once original sin is gone it's gone. Original sin is contracted, not committed. It is the sins that are committed that a child at the age of reason becomes responsible or. The grace is there, the child is growing in this grace as he receives the rest of the sacraments. Confession is the sacrament for committed sins. The Church teaches that when a child reaches the age reason he then is capable of choosing sin or choosing virtue.
 
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jukesk9

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Originally posted by I can eat 50 eggs
thanks for your answers, that's pretty much what I told her, but it's really helped her to have it confirmed.

Ok, now here second question......

ok, after being baptized, when does that baptism stop being sufficient to get you into heaven? Can someone elaborate on the "age of reason" I know that young children can sin long before they can reason, so what happens to those sins?

I'm going to guess here but I would say that they aren't really sins.  If they don't know what they're doing, then it's not sinful.  Even a six year old who knows its wrong to take a pack of gum from the store and does it anyway doesn't possess the intellect and reason that a mature adult does.  I think the Church uses the age of 7 as the age of reason but I think when it comes down to it, it depends on the individual. 

 
 
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jukesk9

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Originally posted by jseek21
Did you know...

The mormon church also believes in this doctrine. Age 8 is the age of accountability for them.

Many LDS children are killed within the time before their 8th birthday, by their own parents.

The vast majority of Protestants baptize babies, too.  The second statement is mighty bold.  Why don't we read about the investigations by police and prosecutions of the parents in the news?  Infant killings always make the news.....
 
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jukesk9

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Originally posted by jseek21
Secondly, could you show me biblical proof for this, not catholic quotes or catecisms.

The vast majority of Christendom baptizes babies.  It ain't just a Catholic thing.  Here's some Scripture.  Again, when you disagree, there are other interpretations of Scripture other than your own.

Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.

Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."

Luke 18:15 - the people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This proves that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.

Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized." This is confirmed in the next verse.

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.

Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.

Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.

Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33.

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.

Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.

1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.

Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

Eph. 2:3- we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception.

2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.

Matt. 8:5-13; Luke 6-10 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith.

Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.

Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.

Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.
 
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jseek21

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Originally posted by jukesk9
The vast majority of Protestants baptize babies, too.  The second statement is mighty bold.  Why don't we read about the investigations by police and prosecutions of the parents in the news?  Infant killings always make the news.....

 

You may not have read of it.  It usually doesn't make it to the news, partially b/c the LDS church is so effective at sealing off information and the parents don't want to say much.  I got this information from Jim Robertson of Concerned Christians (www.concernedchristians.org) (Jim was an ex-LDS primary leader)
 
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