Osas?

Thanks everyone for the thoughts and ideas.

They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us. 1 John 2:19

Example of 1 John 2:19 - Judas was anointed. Judas was empowered. Judas cast out Devils. Judas healed the sick. Judas preached the gospel. This is why Jesus said, "Lord, have we not cast out Devils in your name?" Jesus states, "I don't know who you are."

OSAS = True

I think 2 Peter adds to the discussion. And it may be a good example of what Hentenza was talking about with believers who are firm in the faith being unshakable, and those who do not grow in the faith being in danger.

The book begins with a description of what establishes a person firmly in the faith.



2Pe 1:3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,
2Pe 1:4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

It is through knowledge of Jesus, and His promises grantged to us that we may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped corruption that is in the world.

That particular description presented here in the positive will become important later in the book in the negative.


In view of God's making us partakers of the divine nature Peter says the following:

2Pe 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge,
2Pe 1:6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,
2Pe 1:7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love.
2Pe 1:8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Here we see that those who grow in the qualities of the faith are more fruitful, just as we saw in the parable of Jesus.


2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
2Pe 1:10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.


We are to confirm our calling and election, and the mature believer who grows in these will never fall.


2Pe 1:11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:12 Therefore I intend always to remind you of these qualities, though you know them and are established in the truth that you have.


The one who practices these qualities will gain entrance into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord.

However, later in the book he speaks of those who did not do such.


2Pe 2:20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.

Here we again see that they had escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord, which was what he indicated at the beginning. However, they then were entangled (again similar language to Jesus' parable), and overcome.

Their last end is worse than if they had never known Christ.


2Pe 2:21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them.
2Pe 2:22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: "The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire."

michaelmynameIs said:

the problem with osas being promoted as doctrine -is not whether it is correct or not

but whether it is perceived correctly by those that hear it , as it has the danger of giving hope to those who are not truly saved
- and many who do not understand it ,use it as excuse to live their life in a most ungodly manner , because they heard it preached that" once you are saved you cannot lose your salvation".of course that does not make the osas doctrine incorrect ,it just makes how they are applying it incorrect .

there are times in my life that i knew -in my back-slidden state that had i died, i was not going to heaven , my conscience condemned me ,as i was in sin.
The grace of God restored me ,working in me, by the power of the Holy Spirit, Godly repentance (different from intellectual repentance - different as cheese from coal )

Thus i know in the grace of God, he sustained my life until i was restored to peace with him through the blood of Jesus and as such, was always saved by grace , but i knew in my God-given conscience that I was not always saved ,while in rebellion!
So both perceptions ,in my view .. "could be " deemed as correct .depending how you perceive each.

But.. one of these two doctrines has A greater risk of inadvertently giving license to accepted and continued sin .which is living in the flesh ,which results in unrighteousness ,which results in death .
so imo we must choose Carefully how we promote either ,for i see clearly that both can be perceived as right .we do not have to take sides on the issue

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Although I firmly believe that the doctrine of OSAS is a false doctrine smuggled into the Church in the early years of the Protestant Reformation, I have seen the other side of the scenario that you have presented to us. That flipside scenario is that of the man or woman who is a true believer in Christ but who is still in the process of fully realizing that Jesus has set them free from the bonds of sin (John 8:31-36, etc.) and are still struggling to overcome a sin in their life. Such people can, after very many attempts to “get the victory” over that sin, come to the incorrect belief that they have lost their salvation because of the sin over which they have not yet realized the victory that is theirs in Christ. So, what do we do? We preach and teach the whole truth—emphasizing what Christ Jesus accomplished for us when he died on the cross for us. We do not stop there, however; rather we live the truth that we preach and teach, allowing Christ to effectually minister His love, compassion, and saving grace through us each moment of our lives.

How many sins does it take to remove us from eternal life?

Peter sinned a number of times as recorded in scriptures.

Paul sinned a few times himself, as recorded in scripture.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." -Jn. 10:27-29 (KJV)

Like the Tootsie Pop comerical: How many sins does it take for us to take ourselves out of the Father's hands?

And if we are able, have the ability, to take ourselves out of His hands, who is ultimately the more powerful; God; or man?

God Bless

TIll all are one.

PrincetonGuy said:

Although I firmly believe that the doctrine of OSAS is a false doctrine smuggled into the Church in the early years of the Protestant Reformation, I have seen the other side of the scenario that you have presented to us. That flipside scenario is that of the man or woman who is a true believer in Christ but who is still in the process of fully realizing that Jesus has set them free from the bonds of sin (John 8:31-36, etc.) and are still struggling to overcome a sin in their life. Such people can, after very many attempts to “get the victory” over that sin, come to the incorrect belief that they have lost their salvation because of the sin over which they have not yet realized the victory that is theirs in Christ. So, what do we do? We preach and teach the whole truth—emphasizing what Christ Jesus accomplished for us when he died on the cross for us. We do not stop there, however; rather we live the truth that we preach and teach, allowing Christ to effectually minister His love, compassion, and saving grace through us each moment of our lives.

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perhaps i would say ,those who do not listen ,do not follow , do not allow ongoing sanctification ,though they first believed - are no longer abiding in Christ .
thus my conclusion ..once you abide in Christ you are forever saved - As long as you remain abiding in Christ .

michaelmynameIs said:

perhaps i would say ,those who do not listen ,do not follow , do not allow ongoing sanctification ,though they first believed - are no longer abiding in Christ .
thus my conclusion ..once you abide in Christ you are forever saved - As long as you remain abiding in Christ .

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I agree with this.

2Tim2:8 Remember that Jesus Christ, of the seed of David, was raised from the dead according to my gospel, 9 for which I suffer trouble as an evildoer, even to the point of chains; but the word of God is not chained. 10 Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

11 This is a faithful saying:

For if we died with Him,
We shall also live with Him.
12 If we endure,
We shall also reign with Him.
If we deny Him,
He also will deny us.
13 If we are faithless,
He remains faithful;
He cannot deny Himself.

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Warnings continue~~words addressed to Timothy from the Apostle...

PrincetonGuy said:

Although I firmly believe that the doctrine of OSAS is a false doctrine smuggled into the Church in the early years of the Protestant Reformation, I have seen the other side of the scenario that you have presented to us. That flipside scenario is that of the man or woman who is a true believer in Christ but who is still in the process of fully realizing that Jesus has set them free from the bonds of sin (John 8:31-36, etc.) and are still struggling to overcome a sin in their life. Such people can, after very many attempts to “get the victory” over that sin, come to the incorrect belief that they have lost their salvation because of the sin over which they have not yet realized the victory that is theirs in Christ. So, what do we do? We preach and teach the whole truth—emphasizing what Christ Jesus accomplished for us when he died on the cross for us. We do not stop there, however; rather we live the truth that we preach and teach, allowing Christ to effectually minister His love, compassion, and saving grace through us each moment of our lives.

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Yet - these people have little or no hope if you teach them it is possible to lose salvation. What exactly did Jesus' death accomplish if they can lose salvation. You seem to me to inconsistent.

PrincetonGuy said:

100 is a much larger number than 0, and there are in the Bible more than 100 verses that teach that a Christian can lose his salvation. Here are 6 of them:

Heb. 6:4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
7. For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8. but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.
9. But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. (NASB, 1995)

Up until the 16th century, this passage was universally interpreted as teaching that a Christian could lose his salvation, and the large majority of Bible scholars today still hold to that position. Indeed, this passage of Scripture gives us the most detailed description of what it means to be saved that we find anywhere in the Bible, and the end of these saved persons who subsequently fall away from the Christian faith is eternal damnation in the fires of hell. This was also the doctrine of our earliest Baptist forefathers before some Baptists heard a brand new doctrine that had been recently conceived by some men in Europe, and spread this new doctrine among their Baptist brothers causing it to take over like a firestorm.

The author of the Epistle to the Hebrews wrote his Epistle using the terminology and phraseology of the very early Church. Therefore, in order to accurately interpret the Epistle to the Hebrews, it is essential to have a solid background in the writings of the very early Church and the terminology and phraseology that they used.

The phrase in verse 4, “those who have once been enlightened,” is a reference to water baptism. Indeed, Justin Martyr (died in 165 A.D.) wrote that the term “enlightenment” was used as a synonym for water baptism of converts to Christianity and he uses the term “the enlightened one” for a person who has been baptized. And the Peshitta, an ancient Syriac translation of the Greek New Testament, renders (when translated into English) the phrase in verse 4, “who have gone down into baptism.”

The phrase in verse 4, “have tasted of the heavenly gift,” was variously interpreted during the first 1500 years, but it was ALWAYS interpreted as describing a born-again Christian. Some, for example, saw it to be a reference to the Eucharist; others saw it to be a reference to the teaching of Christ in John 6:31-58. Still others saw it to be a reference to the forgiveness of sins; others saw it to be a reference to the blessings conferred upon the Christian believer.

The phrase in verse 4, “and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,” is an obvious reference to receiving the Holy Spirit, something that, in the New Testament, happens EXCLUSIVELY to those who have been saved.

The phrase in verse 5, “and have tasted the good word of God,” is a clear reference to the Christian’s experience of hearing the word of God preached and taught and the consequential experience of it in his life as a believer.

The phrase in verse 5, “and the powers of the age to come,” is a reference to the miracles that were performed by the Apostles and other Christians as a foreshadowing of the kingdom to come, and to the other blessings that Christians experience now in part but shall experience in their fullness in the future kingdom.

The phrase in verse 6, “and then have fallen away,” can be properly interpreted only to be speaking of falling from grace and the Christian faith, something that can NOT happen until AFTER a person is saved.

The phrases in verse 6, “it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame,” tell us of the absolutely horrendous consequence of a Christian falling from grace, making the death of Christ on the cross for his sins to be of no effect. This passage expressly speaks of a person who has heard the Gospel, believed it, was saved and baptized, repented of his sins, and enjoyed the blessing of being a born-again Christian—but who subsequently chose to reject Christ and return to his sins. And the fate of such a person could not possibly be any worse—it is “impossible to renew them again to repentance.” Most obviously it is not impossible to renew an unsaved person to repentance if they have repented but not been born again and then fall back into sin. Therefore, the person spoken of has necessarily been born again but has fallen away from the Christian faith. And the born-again Christian who, of his own free will, chooses to reject the Christ who redeemed him is beyond redemption and damned to the fires of hell for eternity.

Verses 7 & 8 are an analogy used to support the author’s statements. Just as the ground which once brought forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled received a blessing from God, and the ground that now yields thorns and thistles is worthless and ends up being burned, so the Christian which once brought forth good fruit unto God but who now brings forth bad fruit ends up being burned in the fires of hell.

Verse 9 tells us that the author has been warning his Christian readers about things that do not accompany salvation, things that happen to Christians who fall away from the faith. Nonetheless, he is reassuring them that that he does not expect them to fall away, as some others had done, but is convinced of better things concerning them, and things that, in their case, accompany salvation, even though he felt that he needed to warn them of the horrendous consequences of apostasy from the Christian faith.


Because of the severity of the Greek word translated “impossible” in verse 6, some very early Christians rejected the Epistle to the Hebrews as not being a part of the New Testament Canon, but its place in the New Testament Canon is now well established and its warning is stern.

(Please see also my above post in which over 100 verses are listed.)

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So I assume that you believe that if a person loses their salvation that they can't ever regain it then - right?

Behe's Boy said:

Yet - these people have little or no hope if you teach them it is possible to lose salvation. What exactly did Jesus' death accomplish if they can lose salvation. You seem to me to inconsistent.

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First of all, from what are Christians saved? Their mother-in-law? King Kong? The Great Tribulation? No! Christians are saved from their sins!

Matt. 1:21.21. “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

Christians are not just saved from the consequences of their sins—they are saved from their sins. Therefore, those Christians who revert to their sins like a dog returns to its vomit, or a sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire (2 Peter 2:22) are no longer saved from their sins. That is, they are no longer saved! “How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?” Hebrews 10:29.

The Christian’s hope is not in a false doctrine first conceived in the 16th century as a consequence of a new, aberrational understanding of the sovereignty of God; a Christians hope is in his righteousness that he received by faith:

Gal. 5:5. For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

A Christian who tosses into a trashcan the righteousness that Christ Jesus imparted to him at the cost of His own life no longer has a valid hope—nothing but an empty hope in a false doctrine. Indeed, his hope is a one-way ticket to hell!

Oh, but you may argue that it is not our righteousness that is our hope, but the righteousness of Christ that is our hope. “But you did not learn Christ in this way, if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus, that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit, and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.” Eph. 4:20-24. Moreover, is the righteousness of Christ the hope of the unconverted or of the devil? No, the righteousness of Christ is of no avail to us unless we have “put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.”

1 John 3:7-8. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
8. the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

Well, then, you may ask, “Can a man be saved simply by refraining from sinning and doing good works?” To that I reply, No!

Isa. 64.66. For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

Unless we have put on, and continue to wear, the righteousness of Christ as our own, we are dressed in filthy rags and are destined for hell.

You may ask, “Do we do this in our own strength?” To that question I reply, “No, that is not possible because of the frailty of human flesh. God Himself is our strength so long as we are abiding in Christ.”

Psalms 81:1. Sing for joy to God our strength; Shout joyfully to the God of Jacob.

John 15:1. “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2. “Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3. “You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4. “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5. “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7. “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.”
8. “My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9. “Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10. “If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
11. “These things I have spoken to you so that My joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full.

John 3:36. “He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

(All quotations from Scripture are from the NASB, 1995)

Behe's Boy said:

So I assume that you believe that if a person loses their salvation that they can't ever regain it then - right?

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The only place in the entire Bible where that doctrine is explicitly found is in Hebrews 6:6—and it is found there ONLY if the word ‘impossible’ is to be interpreted with its full, literal force. Moreover, throughout the Bible we find promises of God’s forgiveness to those persons who repent of their sins. Therefore, the Church has struggled with the question that you are asking from its earliest days. In all humility, I must answer that I am not sure of the correct answer.

PrincetonGuy said:

The only place in the entire Bible where that doctrine is explicitly found is in Hebrews 6:6—and it is found there ONLY if the word ‘impossible’ is to be interpreted with its full, literal force. Moreover, throughout the Bible we find promises of God’s forgiveness to those persons who repent of their sins. Therefore, the Church has struggled with the question that you are asking from its earliest days. In all humility, I must answer that I am not sure of the correct answer.

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Thanks for your honesty on this. I'd say you have a problem then - particularly when it comes to evangelizing.

I'll come back and discuss more when I'm not limited to an iPad...

Behe's Boy said:

Thanks for your honesty on this. I'd say you have a problem then - particularly when it comes to evangelizing.

I'll come back and discuss more when I'm not limited to an iPad...

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Two quick points for your iPad,

1. The concept of the eternal security of the believer in Christ (preservation of the saints, perseverance of the saints, etc) was not introduced to the Church until the 16th century (as evidenced by the fact that it is not found in any literature prior to that time), but we have a whole library of literature from the first 1,500 years of the Church in which the doctrine of the conditional security of the believer in Christ is discussed but NEVER defended against any other view—because there were no other views until the Protestant Reformation. Nonetheless, the Christian faith spread with the force and speed of a firestorm throughout the world!

2. Statistically, the most successful churches in their evangelism during the past 100 years have been churches that teach conditional security rather than eternal security. This has been especially true in Asia, Africa, Mexico, and Central and South America.

PrincetonGuy said:

Two quick points for your iPad,

1. The concept of the eternal security of the believer in Christ (preservation of the saints, perseverance of the saints, etc) was not introduced to the Church until the 16th century (as evidenced by the fact that it is not found in any literature prior to that time), but we have a whole library of literature from the first 1,500 years of the Church in which the doctrine of the conditional security of the believer in Christ is discussed but NEVER defended against any other view—because there were no other views until the Protestant Reformation. Nonetheless, the Christian faith spread with the force and speed of a firestorm throughout the world!

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That statement is questionable.

The Perseverance of the Saints: A History of the Doctrine by John Jefferson Davis (1991 JETS)

PrincetonGuy said:

First of all, from what are Christians saved? Their mother-in-law? King Kong? The Great Tribulation? No! Christians are saved from their sins!

Matt. 1:21.21. “She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”

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I didn't ask from what are Christians saved from - I specifically asked what did Jesus' death accomplish?

In regards to the verse you referenced above - how are we saved from our sins? When are we saved from our sins?

PrincetonGuy said:

Two quick points for your iPad,

1. The concept of the eternal security of the believer in Christ (preservation of the saints, perseverance of the saints, etc) was not introduced to the Church until the 16th century (as evidenced by the fact that it is not found in any literature prior to that time), but we have a whole library of literature from the first 1,500 years of the Church in which the doctrine of the conditional security of the believer in Christ is discussed but NEVER defended against any other view—because there were no other views until the Protestant Reformation. Nonetheless, the Christian faith spread with the force and speed of a firestorm throughout the world!

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I would to stick to scripture alone on this issue - that should be the final authority over history. Also - as has been pointed out there is some historical evidence that goes contrary to your claim.

2. Statistically, the most successful churches in their evangelism during the past 100 years have been churches that teach conditional security rather than eternal security. This has been especially true in Asia, Africa, Mexico, and Central and South America.

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Which churches? Can you give some examples?

PrincetonGuy said:

Although I firmly believe that the doctrine of OSAS is a false doctrine smuggled into the Church in the early years of the Protestant Reformation, I have seen the other side of the scenario that you have presented to us. That flipside scenario is that of the man or woman who is a true believer in Christ but who is still in the process of fully realizing that Jesus has set them free from the bonds of sin (John 8:31-36, etc.) and are still struggling to overcome a sin in their life. Such people can, after very many attempts to “get the victory” over that sin, come to the incorrect belief that they have lost their salvation because of the sin over which they have not yet realized the victory that is theirs in Christ. So, what do we do? We preach and teach the whole truth—emphasizing what Christ Jesus accomplished for us when he died on the cross for us. We do not stop there, however; rather we live the truth that we preach and teach, allowing Christ to effectually minister His love, compassion, and saving grace through us each moment of our lives.

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PrincetonGuy,

I consider that the language of 'once saved, always saved' is misleading. As I did a lengthy exposition of this topic in relation to Hebrew 6:4-8, I found that the Scriptures support loss of salvation with no opportunity for repentance if apostasy is committed. This is my exposition: 'Once saved, always saved or once saved, lost again: An exposition of Hebrews 6:4-8'.

I consider 'once saved, always saved' is dangerous language as it too often is associated with loss of salvation because somebody sins. Sinless perfection is not something that I have experienced in this life. I don't find these emphases to be biblical doctrines.

My understanding, as I've tried to explain in the article, is that perseverance of the saints is better language. True saints should persevere in faith, but there is the possibility that apostasy can be committed and salvation is lost permanently, with no hope of restoration. Or, as Hebrews 6:4, 6 emphasise, 'It is impossible to restore again to repentance ... if they then fall away [commit apostasy]'.

Sincerely in Christ,
Oz

Basically if you apostize and do not ever repent than you loose your salvation. You essentially give up on God.