A Short History of the Doctrine of a Rapture before the Great Tribulation

Biblewriter said:

to Bible 2

Read the title to the thread. This thread is not about strictly pre- 7 year trib statements. It is about statements about a rapture before the Great Tribulation.

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Psalm 75:2,3, in Hebrew language teaches exactly the rapture before the tribulation.
PSalm 75:2 לקח laqach מועד mow`ed שפט shaphat מישר meyshar

Verse 3 ארץ 'erets ישב yashab מוג muwg עמוד `ammuwd סלה celah

לקח laqach -from blb.org concordance:
1) to take, get, fetch, lay hold of, seize, receive, acquire, buy, bring, marry, take a wife, snatch, take away
translated in AV:
AV — take 747, receive 61, take away 51, fetch 31, bring 25, get 6, take out 6, carry away 5, married 4, buy 3, misc 26


מועד mow`ed -from blueletterbible.org concordance:
1) appointed place, appointed time, meeting
a) appointed time
1) appointed time (general)
2) sacred season, set feast, appointed season
b) appointed meeting
c) appointed place
d) appointed sign or signal
e) tent of meeting
translated in AV:
AV — congregation 150, feast 23, season 13, appointed 12, time 12, assembly 4, solemnity 4, solemn 2, days 1, sign 1, synagogues 1

שפט shaphat -from blb.org concordance:
1) to judge, govern, vindicate, punish
Translated in AV — judge (v) 119, judge (n) 60, plead 11, avenged 2, condemn 2, execute 2, judgment 2, defend 1, deliver 1, misc 3

The "שפט shaphat" is not for punishment of the congregation which is raptured/laqach/taken away, but is -as follows in verse 3- for the condemnation of the wicked inhabitants of the earth and for their punishment, as the Greek Lexicon at the site tells us.


מישר meyshar -from blb.org concordance:
1) evenness, uprightness, straightness, equity
translated in AV-— equity 4, uprightly 3, uprightness 3, right things 2, agreement 1, aright 1, equal 1, right 1, righteously 1, sweetly 1, upright 1


3 ארץ 'erets -earth context is "all" the earth
ישב yashab -blb concordance:
to dwell, remain, sit, abide
translated -AV — dwell 437, inhabitant 221, sit 172, abide 70, inhabit 39, down 26, remain 23, in 22, tarry 19, set 14, continue 5, place 7, still 5, taken 5, misc 23

מוג muwg -blb concordance
1) to melt, cause to melt
translated AV — melt 5, dissolve 4, faint 3, melt away 2, consumed 1, fainthearted 1, soft 1

Lexicon: to flow, flow down -to melt
it is to be fainthearted to faint in heart:

Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
תכן takan -blb concordance
1) to regulate, measure, estimate, ponder, balance, make even, level, weigh, be equal, be weighed out, test, prove
translated -AV — equal 7, weigh 3, pondereth 2, unequal 2, directed 1, misc 3

The Lexicon is most enlightening at the blb link for תכן takan....

עמוד `ammuwd blb concordance
1) pillar, column translated -AV — pillar 109

He will shake down the pillars that hold the earth and reset them at the time of the rapture. Rebel angels will fall, and from the raptured holy sons of God He will choose those who will be set in the fallen ones places, as their rewards are given to them, so as to rule in righteousness over earth, which is the theme carried out in many Scriptures.

The rewards banquet has to happen in heaven before the raptured sons of God can return with Him and the holy watcher angels so as to set up His kingdom of God on earth for the millennial reign.....they rule from Eden above/Mount Zion of the heavenlies, just like the angels do now; but the wicked will be cast down and the adopted sons of God will take their places as the "pillars of earth" "reset".

Biblewriter said:

And NOT ONE explicit verse exists in the whole Bible says the rapture will not be until after the tribulation. Not One.

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you're right not just one but there are a number of scriptures which emphatically state there is one return and clearly say it's after tribulation and some are even directly prophesied by Christ himself to his apostles

but what's odd here is the fact that the only way you could refute this truth is an attempt to "borrow" my argument against your false doctrine and place it on post trib...................so in effect you are conceding that you don't have any explicit verses to present for your doctrine hence it is based soley on assumption according to the doctrine

hence..................
Christ's return is both prophecy and promise, therefore your doctrine's prophecies and promises are NOT built on any explicit scriptural references but rather on ASSUMPTION

as.sume
Verb

• Suppose to be the case, without proof: "afraid of what people are going to assume".

..........you suppose it to be the case without proof, more simply put you take for granted that it is truth but without solid evidence that it is


now this raises another point ...........it should be obvious that when God sends his spirit to teach that God does not work this way, ie, for us to just take things for granted...........the very reason that servants of God are taught by scripture to PROVE ALL THINGS (1Thessalonians 5:21) and to try the spirits (1John 4:1)..........finally to study (2Timothy 2:15)


but sadly pretribbers are not heeding this advice from God..........they are just assuming (taking for granted) that this doctrine is truth even with no evidence from scripture


?

Biblewriter said:

As to no scripture speaking of a return in 2 phases, no OT scripture ever said Messiah would come more than once.

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oh contrare..............Daniel's prophecy clearly foretells of Christ's first advent and his crucifiction also adding Isaiah's prophecies about his first advent

then moving to David's prophecies that God would not leave his Holy One in the grave (Christ) and that he would ascend back to heaven..........so here we have Christ's resurection and asension back to heaven

now moving to Zechariah's prophecy that Christ would return with his saints at a certain point in time to Jerusalem defending it against the gentiles that came against Jerusalem to destroy it, then setting up his Kingdom on earth..................

so we have the first and second coming of Christ foretold in OT scripture.....................

but what is still missing in both the OT and NT is pretrib's second coming in 2 phases, ie , first to gather saints then second to return after tribuation...............no OT prophet ever spoke of it..........no apostles or Christ himself EVER mention, foretell or promise a 2 phase return as per pretrib's false teachings

this certainly raises a question, why would something so important to saints , an event so great in scope NEVER be taught or even mentioned in scripture ?

the answer should be obvious, scripture doesn't teach a 2 phase return because the pretrib doctrine is an invention of men, not a prophecy inspired by God

to BW re #23
I don't know if they mention it or not, but they stand for a historical problem you haven't addressed. How could the Papacy with all its staff and libraries have missed your futurism so totally that it had to commission someone to explain another kind of AC, to protect the 'good' name of the pope? I believe I've asked you this before. For it was the purpose they (Ribera and Alcazar) were appointed for and the time (mid-late 1500s). The pope would certainly have wanted the oldest source he could point to, in order to defeat the reformers claim.

Where were all these sources when historians like Schaff and D'Aubigne and Pieper discussed the reformation and found that Irving and the Brethren were bringing in Romanist views, without any formal connection to Rome, of course. "They (R&A) represent a remarkable triumph of the theories of Rome's Counter Reformation" --R. Brinsmead, editor, Present Truth, 1974.

I don't know of a church historian out there who finds an ongoing continuity of sources on this. Yet they know what R&A were about. Sorry, but I find too much similarity with the futurization of Mt 24 & //s. The historical meaning is established enough to have resulted in artwork over the centuries, but never anything that portrays futurism until the late 1800s after the Brethren.

And then there is Tragelles' comment from the times. Tragelles was at Powercourt, and what he says does not indicate any awareness of the doctrine before Irving and the Brethren:

"I am not aware that there was any defniite teaching that there should be a Secret Rapture of the Church at a secret coming until this was given forth as an 'utterance' in Mr. Irving's church from ...the voice of the Spirit. But whether anyone ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose." --S. Tragelles, THE HOPE OF CHRIST'S COMING, p35.

That is to say, they themselves believed they had recieved this direct from the Spirit. They did not believe they were continuing anything from long church history. Extremely curious, isn't it?

Your proof did not start til 130 AD. So do the math: you meant to say the last 3 of the 1st 4 centuries.

Irving may have said that about charismatic gifts, but the futurist interests and doctrines were the same. Anyway, Tragelles was closer to it than either of us.

The thing is this: it is extremely unnerving to keep on claiming futurism centuries on end, than to say the material is historic, and expected the end 'immediately' but the Father decided not. Myself, I could not live with the claim to be on the end of the seat and frantically searching all over the headlines day in and out. You've seen what it does to people here, and to Pastor Camping 2x. The historic position is far more stabilizing and secure.

Many of the evangelists from the period in question forward were pretty rubbish on justificaton by faith. They tended to think of it as an initial experience and that tended to be minimized in favor of other great things the Spirit would do etc. Both of which are mistakes as the historic position sees it. Justification is an eschatological phenomenon, says Rom 3. The day of God's justice has arrived for those who will accept it and the gift. It is the forefront of what OT eschatology was looking for, not events in modern Israel or wars or plagues or evil. 'Today in your hearing the Scripture is fulfilled.' 'The time is coming and now is.' Even the one you quoted on resurrection: 'the time is coming and is now when the dead will hear the voice of the Son and live.' Extremely present tense, making futurism, if there is any, a piddly sideshow.

Biblewriter said:

Many object to the doctrine of the rapture being before the tribulation on the grounds that this is a relatively new doctrine, one that was never taught before 1830. They claim that this proves it cannot be correct. But this is error, for a rapture before the great tribulation has been taught throughout church history. (The great tribulation is the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week.)

The very oldest commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length that has survived to the present day is the last ten chapters of the famous work by Irenaeus, titled “Against Heresies.” This it thought to have been written between 186 and 188 AD. (There were older Christian comments on Bible prophecy, but all of them that have survived to the present day are short.) Irenaeus wrote of the evil of the nations in general, and then said, "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption'" (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, Chapter XXIX, section 2.)

We need to notice the following elements in this short statement:

First, the church will be "suddenly caught up." This is an obvious reference to the rapture. Second, after the church is "suddenly caught up," "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." Lest anyone claim that this is not specifically stated to be after “the church is "suddenly caught up," please note that the grammatical construction (when) -- (one event takes place) -- (a second event takes place) has two possible meanings. It either means that the two events will take place at the same time or it means that the second event will take place after the first event. But it cannot mean that the second event takes place before the first event. In this case the first event is clearly instantaneous and the second event will obviously consume a significant period of time. So it is unreasonable to argue that the writer’s intention was anything other than to state that this “tribulation” would take place after the church is “suddenly caught up.”

So this statement clearly teaches that the rapture will occur before the great tribulation. But Irenaeus also had the church suffering under persecution from the Antichrist. So his position was what would today be called a mid-tribulation rapture.

Next we come to a late third century commentary on the Revelation, which said concerning Revelation 14:6, “‘And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.’”] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.” Then, concerning Revelation 15:1, it said “‘And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.’] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”

(“Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John,” by Victorinus.) The date this was written is unknown, but Victorinus is thought to have flourished around 270 AD, and to have died in 303 AD.

These statements are plainly pre-tribulational. For he foresaw the church “taken away” long before the time of the Antichrist in Revelation 13, and he explicitly mentioned that “the Church shall have gone out of the midst” during the seven last plagues of Revelation 15.

Again, the following statement by John of Crysostem is evidence of the pre-tribulation rapture having been taught in early Christian centuries.

“2 Thessalonians ii. 6–9
“‘And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of His mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of His coming: even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan.’
“One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholdeth, that is, hindereth him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him.” (Homilies on 2 Thessalonians, Homily IV, by John Chrysostom. This is thought to have been written sometime between the years 395 and 407.)

[from Volume XIII of “Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers,” series 2, as translated by James Tweed and edited by Philip Schaff, as found in the American edition edited by Phillip Schaff , and as found online at http://www.ccel.org.]

Although it is strangely stated, this appears to be a saying that some in the day of John of Crysostom were saying that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6 is the Holy Spirit. As this is one of the key elements of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, this appears to be evidence that some were teaching this doctrine around the beginning of the fifth century. This is all the more important historically, because the man who mentioned it did not himself believe it.

But in addition to these critically important comments from the early centuries of the church, there is a document whose age and author is unknown, but which is known to have been in Church libraries before the year 800. One of the surviving copies of this document say its author was Isidore of Seville, (Who is believed to have lived from 560 to 636.) but all the rest say it was written by Ephraem. Based on events referred to in this document as impending, various scholars have estimated its date from as early as 373 to as late as 627. (The latest of these possible dates, along with the time of Isidore of Seville, would classify the date of this document as early medieval.) As scholars do not believe the unknown author could have been the famous Ephraem the Syrian, (who is also known as Ephraem of Nisbis) they call this unknown author Pseudo-Ephraem. This document says:

“Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” author unknown but called Pseudo-Ephraem, section 2.)

[From “The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition,” by Paul J. Alexander, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985, 2.10. Cited there from “Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters,” C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Christiania, 1890, 208-20. As found online at On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, andthe End of the World. This included a Latin text of the pseudo-Ephraem document prepared from four ancient manuscripts. ]

Moving now to late medieval times, an anonymously written history of a fourteenth century leader of a sect called the Apostolic Brethren, who called himself “Brother Dolcino,”said of him:

“Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist.” (“Historia Fratris Dulcini,” anonymous, 1316, as found in Codice Ambrosiano-H. 80, and as translated from the Latin by Francis X. Gumerlock in “Before Darby,” p. 3.)
Note: This was was edited in 1551 and was utilized in the 1600’s in several other ecclesiastical histories of the area of Vercelli and Novara. The date of 1316 is confirmed in R. Kestenberg-Gladstein, “The Third Reich: A Fifteenth-Century Polemic Against Joachism, and Its Background” in Delno West, ed., Joachim of Fiore in Christian Thought, Vol 2 (New York: Burt Franklin & Co., 1975), 599, no. 49. Eugenio Anagnine describes the Historia as a “opera stesa probabilmente da un contemporaneo di Biella (1304-7).” See Eugenio Anagnine, Dolcino (Firenze: La Nuova Italia, 1964), p. 1.)

This can be read online at:
http://francisgumerlock.com/wp-cont...apture Citation in the Fourteenth Century.pdf

So this record says that Brother Dolcino taught a rapture after the beginning of the time of Antichrist, but before its end. This again appears to be a position that would today be called mid tribulation rapture, but would certainly qualify as a rapture before the great tribulation.

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Short? I've read novels that weren't that long.

looks like people believe it about every 300 years!

Irving and Darby shared Brethren roots even if Darby called "utterances" satanic. You don't have to have "manifestations of the Spirit" to have a cockamanee doctrine. The idea of a "parenthesis" church is hooey. But it had to happen because he was so far off the pulse of the NT anyway.

Maitland (d1866), Todd (d1869) and Newman (d1890) were the 1st three Anglican or Protestant leaders to doubt the Reformation understanding of AC; they were the Oxford movement. It was a victory of the counter reformation, and the Brethren roots shared thinking on that.

Biblewriter said in post 31:

But my comment was not about Papias, but about Jerome, who wrote in the fifth century that, "We should therefore concur with the traditional interpretation of all the commentators of the Christian Church, that at the end of the world, when the Roman Empire is to be destroyed, there shall be ten kings who will partition the Roman world amongst themselves. Then an insignificant eleventh king will arise, who will overcome three of the ten kings... Then after they have been slain, the seven other kings will bow their necks to the victor." (Jerome’s comments on Daniel 7:8, as found in “Jerome’s Commentary on Daniel,” pg. 77, translated by Gleason L. Archer, Jr., published by Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1958.)

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Jerome could be right. For in Daniel 7, the first three beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the fourth beast, or fourth "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman Empire. And the ten horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent ten major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman Empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These ten nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The ten part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the ten horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand, and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other, could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the ten as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country. And the little horn arising from "among" the ten major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman Empire. And before that, it was part of one of the four Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these four kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of three of the ten major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, that is, a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9). This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control over all ten of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like, for example, when Napoleon gained control over different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

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Biblewriter said in post 27:

The New Testament shows tow furutre comings of Jesus in exactly the same way the Old Testament showed two comings of Messiah, not by stating that fact, but by showing it. For Jesus said in John 14:3 that "I will come again, and receive you to myself. But, as recorded in Jude 14, He had already said through Enoch that "the lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints." He cannot come for them and with them at the same time.

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Note that those scriptures don't require two future comings of Christ.

Regarding John 14:2-3, it means that one of the reasons that Jesus left was to prepare a place for the church in the literal city of New Jerusalem, the Father's house in heaven (Revelation 21:2-3). And John 14:3 means that Jesus' leaving to prepare a place for the church means that he's not done with the church, but will come back to it. John 14:3 means that the church will be received to Jesus where he will be at his second coming, which will be in the sky (1 Thessalonians 4:17), on his way down to the present earth at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Matthew 24:30-31, Zechariah 14:3-21), which won't occur until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). The church will live in its place in New Jerusalem (Revelation 21:24 to 22:5) on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3) sometime after the millennium and other events are over (Revelation 20:7-15). For during the millennium, the bodily resurrected church will be ruling on the present earth with the returned Jesus (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Zechariah 14:3-21).

The church has already come to the Father's house, New Jerusalem, which is currently in heaven, in the spiritual sense of coming under the New Covenant (Hebrews 12:22-24, Galatians 4:24-26, Matthew 26:28). Also, the souls of obedient people in the church go to the Father's house when they die, for their souls go into heaven to be with Jesus when they die (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And they go into paradise (Luke 23:43), which is in heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b,4), in the city of New Jerusalem (Revelation 2:7 and Revelation 22:2).

Regarding Jude 14, note that 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 refer to Jesus' second coming, when the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the third heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who survived the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up together as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:29-31).

It's because of this second-coming rapture into the sky (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12) that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

Biblewriter said in post 27:

Again, in Matthew 25, we read that after the bridegroom has come and the door is shut, others will come saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. (verses 10-11) But in Matthew 13:30, we find that the tares, which he said represent the wicked, will be gathered before the wheat, which he said represent the righteous.

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Note that those scriptures don't require two future comings of Christ.

The ten virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus will not occur until his second coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage will not occur until after the tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his second coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Regarding Matthew 13:30, the subsequent explanation in Matthew 13:40-42 refers to the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-14), after the future millennium and subsequent events (Revelation 20:7-10), when the unsaved will be cast into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:15). In Matthew 13:43, the kingdom of the Father is after the great white throne judgment, when a new earth will be created and God the Father will descend from heaven in the literal city of New Jerusalem to live with the church on the new earth (Revelation 21:1-3).

Interplanner said in post 32:

The idea of a "parenthesis" church is hooey.

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That's right. For the church will continue on the earth throughout all ages (Ephesians 3:21). The church will continue on the earth throughout the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4), and then throughout the subsequent millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29), and then forever on the new earth (Revelation 21:1 to 22:5).

Futurism per se should be distinguished from dispensationalism. For futurism per se is correct, because the tribulation and 2nd-coming prophecies of Revelation chapters 6 to 19 and Matthew 24 have never been fulfilled. But dispensationalism is mistaken, because all genetic Jews in the church remain Israel (Romans 11:1), and all genetic Gentiles in the church have been grafted into Israel (Romans 11:17,24, Ephesians 2:12,19, Galatians 3:29). So the entire church is Israel (Revelation 21:9,12; 1 Peter 2:9-10). This is necessary, for all those in the church are saved only by the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28; 1 Corinthians 11:25; 2 Corinthians 3:6, Hebrews 9:15), and the New Covenant is made only with Israel (Jeremiah 31:31-34, John 4:22b). John 10:16 refers to the "other sheep" of believers who are Gentiles being brought into "this fold" of Israel, which is the same as the "one fold" of the church (1 Corinthians 12:13, Ephesians 4:4-6, Revelation 21:9,12). Also, all those in the church, no matter whether they're genetic Jews (Acts 22:3) or genetic Gentiles (Romans 16:4b), have become spiritually-circumcised Jews if they've undergone the spiritual circumcision of water-immersion (burial) baptism into Jesus (Romans 2:29, Philippians 3:3, Colossians 2:11-13).


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Interplanner said in post 20:

BW, with all the material covered, how could you not mention Ribera and Alcaraz, the Jesuits commissioned by the Papacy's Counterreformation, to write an eschatology that made someone else AC, not the Pope?

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Regarding the futurist idea that the Antichrist isn't the pope, that isn't based on any Jesuit teachings, but on the simple, scriptural fact that the papacy has never fulfilled the detailed references to the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) in Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 16:2-16, and Revelation 19:19-21. Nor has the papacy ever fulfilled other Antichrist scriptures (e.g. 2 Thessalonians 2:3-9, Daniel 11:31,36, cf. Matthew 24:15).

The Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Catholicism in its past and current form, insofar as Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Christ, whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Catholicism affirms that Jesus is the Son of God, whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Son of God (1 John 2:22b). And Catholicism affirms that Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Catholicism affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that the only man who is God is Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whereas the Antichrist will say that he (the Antichrist) is God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Catholicism affirms that Lucifer (Satan) is evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Catholicism in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), the Antichrist, and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be an apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Catholicism in its current form (as well as Christianity generally, and also Islam), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

The beast which comes up out of the earth (Revelation 13:11-16) represents the individual man who will become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13). He could be a (secretly apostate) pope who at some point during his tenure will make a great push for peace and unity between Christianity and Islam. He could say something like: "Why do we fight each other? Are we not all the spiritual children of Abraham and of his God, the one God? Can't we lay aside our foolish, man-made differences of theology, which have done us no good at all, but only brought us hatred and violence, and unite into one religion of Abraham, one religion of peace, based on love for the one God and love for our fellow man? What's more important than this?"

He could be so skillful in elucidating what the moderate Muslims could call "the true, peaceful, loving nature of Islam", that he could be hailed by them worldwide as (in their words) "a Great Imam, come to rescue our beloved Islam from the bad reputation falsely given to it by the terrorists". In this way, a pope could come to hold high positions of power in two religions at the same time, which could be symbolized by the two horns of the False Prophet lamb (Revelation 13:11). This would be similar to how the seven horns of the true-Jesus lamb in Revelation 5:6 could represent the true Jesus holding seven positions of power at the same time (compare Jesus wearing many crowns at the same time in Revelation 19:12). The False Prophet could even say that he is Jesus. (But he won't say that he's Christ, for the False Prophet and the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ, and will deny that Christ is in the flesh: 1 John 2:22; 2 John 1:7.)

Once the False Prophet by his amazing miracles has brought the world under his spell (Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), including many Muslims and Christians who may not care much for scriptural dogma, but could go wild over his signs and wonders, he could begin to (in his words) "restore to the world the real message which was spoken by me (Jesus) at my first coming, and by the great prophet Mohammed, but which message became corrupted by power-hungry men when they copied and changed the early manuscripts of the Bible and the Koran". He could then gradually initiate the world into the Antichrist's Gnostic Luciferianism (1 John 4:3, Revelation 13:4-6), a religion which could have existed since ancient times in some "mystery" cults, and which still exists today in the highest degree of initiation of a worldwide secret society. The False Prophet could present his miraculously calling fire down from heaven (Revelation 13:13) as purported proof that Lucifer (the dragon, Satan) and the Antichrist are the true God (Revelation 13:4-8, Revelation 12:9), in an inversion of how back in Old Testament times, Elijah miraculously called fire down from heaven to prove that YHWH is the true God (1 Kings 18:37-39).

If a (secretly apostate) pope does become the Antichrist's False Prophet (Revelation 13:11-16, Revelation 19:20, Revelation 16:13), adherents of Catholicism will have to decide what their ultimate source of truth is: Is it the pope and the RCC, or God and the Bible? Many adherents of Catholicism who know God and the Bible well and hold to them as their ultimate source of truth will no doubt be utterly aghast at the false doctrines of a False Prophet pope. Such adherents of Catholicism could demand that he be removed for heresy and apostasy, and that the cardinals elect a new pope. But other adherents of Catholicism, including many cardinals, bishops, and priests, could be deceived (along with most of the rest of the world) into believing the False Prophet pope's false doctrines because of his ability to perform the most amazing miracles (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20; compare Matthew 24:24).

And so a great schism could arise within the RCC. Compare the Akita prophecy: "The work of the devil will infiltrate even into the Church in such a way that one will see cardinals opposing cardinals, bishops against bishops". Many adherents of Catholicism could follow the False Prophet pope, while other adherents of Catholicism could reject him and eventually even elect their own, new pope, who they could declare to be the "True pope". But this new, "True pope" could then be murdered, along with many of his followers, by the False Prophet pope's soldiers. Compare the Third Secret of Fatima: "he [the pope] was killed by a group of soldiers who fired bullets and arrows at him, and in the same way there died one after another the other Bishops, Priests, men and women Religious, and various lay people of different ranks and positions". Could the soldiers firing "arrows" be the pope's Swiss guards, whose weapons and colorful uniforms hark back to the Middle Ages?

After this slaughter, the False Prophet pope could manage to retain the papacy and full control of the Vatican, and through his (deceived) cardinals, bishops, and priests, retain full control of all RCC cathedrals, parishes, churches, etc., throughout the world. And when the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) obtains power over all nations, he and the False Prophet will make war against true, Biblical Christians (whether they are adherents of Catholicism or not) throughout the world, and will physically overcome them and kill them in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

It is only when the Antichrist has completely broken all the physical power of the true church (which consists of all true believers, whether they are adherents of Catholicism or not: Ephesians 4:4-6) that the future tribulation will end (Daniel 12:7b) and Jesus' second coming will immediately occur, at which time he will resurrect and rapture (gather together) the church (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6). At his second coming, Jesus will tread the winepress of God's wrath alone (Isaiah 63:3, Revelation 19:15-21), and so he/God will get all the glory for defeating the power of evil on the earth (Deuteronomy 32:39-43), for he/God will not share this glory with the church (cf. Isaiah 42:8-14, Isaiah 26:18).

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Interplanner said in post 26:

And then there is Tragelles' comment from the times. Tragelles was at Powercourt, and what he says does not indicate any awareness of the doctrine before Irving and the Brethren:

"I am not aware that there was any defniite teaching that there should be a Secret Rapture of the Church at a secret coming until this was given forth as an 'utterance' in Mr. Irving's church from ...the voice of the Spirit. But whether anyone ever asserted such a thing or not, it was from that supposed revelation that the modern doctrine and the modern phraseology respecting it arose." --S. Tragelles, THE HOPE OF CHRIST'S COMING, p35.

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The mistaken pre-tribulation rapture view feels that 1 Thessalonians 5:2 supports the idea of an imminent, pre-tribulation, secret coming of Jesus to rapture the church and begin the tribulation. But not all thieves in the night come secretly, like cat burglars. Some like to rob homes via what's called a home invasion, which is quite obvious and can involve the thieves not only stealing, but also killing and destroying (John 10:10; 2 Thessalonians 1:8-10, Revelation 19:7-21).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2, Matthew 24:43-44, Revelation 16:15) doesn't mean that he will come quietly or secretly. "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God" (1 Thessalonians 4:16), "with a great sound of a trumpet" (Matthew 24:31). And "as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be" (Matthew 24:27,43,44). "Behold, I come as a thief" (Revelation 16:15), "Behold, he cometh with clouds [1 Thessalonians 4:17]; and every eye shall see him" (Revelation 1:7).

Similarly, Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come upon even Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' second coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his second coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

Interplanner said in post 29:

The thing is this: it is extremely unnerving to keep on claiming futurism centuries on end, than to say the material is historic, and expected the end 'immediately' but the Father decided not.

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Note that the timing referred to Matthew 24:29-30 doesn't refer to what was "expected at first", but refers to Jesus' own words about when his second coming must occur in relation to the never-fulfilled tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, regarding "but the Father decided not", are you thinking of Acts 1:7? If so, that verse could mean that it wasn't for the apostles to know at that time the date (as in the year, month, and day) of Jesus' second coming, when he will restore the Davidic kingdom of Israel (Acts 1:6-7, Acts 3:20-21, Luke 1:32-33, Isaiah 9:7, Zechariah 14:3-21, Isaiah 2:1-4). Acts 1:7 doesn't require that no believers will ever come to know the date of the second coming before it happens. Similarly, Matthew 24:36,42,44 doesn't require that. For Matthew 24:36,42,44 also refers to Jesus' second coming (Matthew 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). So in Matthew 24:42,44, Jesus can mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the second coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3b). In the context of Matthew 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4).

Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible that at some point in the future, some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the second coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think that Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-tribulation and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim that he will come when nobody thinks he will (Matthew 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Matthew 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Corinthians 2:11). If we claim that the first verse means that no man will ever know the date of the second coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim that the second verse means that no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the second coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:12-13). He can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (John 16:13), including the date of the second coming. For, again, Jesus suggests that it is possible for believers to know when the second coming will occur and to watch for it (Matthew 24:43-44a; 1 Thessalonians 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the second coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the second coming.

Jesus could return on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a third Jewish temple (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15, Daniel 11:31,36, Matthew 24:15).

Interplanner said in post 29:

Myself, I could not live with the claim to be on the end of the seat and frantically searching all over the headlines day in and out.

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Futurism per se doesn't require any "frantic" searching of the headlines. Instead, futurism can calmly consider today's headlines regarding such things as geopolitics and technology, in order to help believers consider different ways for how exactly the never-fulfilled, yet still understandable, and almost entirely literal, highly-detailed prophecies in Revelation chapters 6 to 18 might be fulfilled in our future. For example, Christians at any time in the past could understand that Revelation 6:4-8 refers to a horrible, literal war which will start the tribulation, and which, with its aftermath of famines and epidemics, will end up killing a fourth of the world. They could understand this without having to know, for example, what nation will start the war, or what weapons will be employed in the war. All futurism does is consider these things.

For another example, Christians at any time in the past could understand that Revelation 13:14-15 refers to a literal image (Greek: "eikon", something made in the likeness) of the Antichrist, which will appear to be alive, which will speak, and which people will have to worship or be killed. Christians in the past could understand this without having to know, for example, whether the image will be two-dimensional or three-dimensional (or both), or what it will be made of, or how it will be made to speak and appear to be alive. All futurism does is consider these things.

Interplanner said in post 29:

The historic position is far more stabilizing and secure.

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If by "the historic position", you mean historicism and preterism, they could actually leave believers in a less secure position spiritually. For preterism (whether full or partial) and historicism (in its various modern forms), as well as pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all have originated from the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these five views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD. Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the third heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), or is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these five views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These five views may have left some in the church completely unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these five views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Interplanner said in post 29:

Even the one you quoted on resurrection: 'the time is coming and is now when the dead will hear the voice of the Son and live.' Extremely present tense, making futurism, if there is any, a piddly sideshow.

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John 5:25 says "The hour is coming, and now is [Greek present tense, not perfect tense], when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live" (John 5:25). "The hour is coming" refers to the still-future time of the first resurrection, the physical resurrection of the church at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Romans 8:23-25). In John 5:25, "and now is" referred to the time of Jesus' first coming, when he on the Cross "cried with a loud voice", and some dead people heard it and came back to life (Matthew 27:50,52).

Regarding the nearby John 5:28-29, it wasn't until later (compare John 16:12) that Jesus showed the apostle John that there will be two (still-unfulfilled) bodily resurrections separated by a thousand years (Revelation 20:5). John 5:28-29 can include both of these, for the original Greek word translated as "hour" doesn't have to mean a literal hour, but can refer figuratively to any period of time. For example, the last "hour" of 1 John 2:18 (Greek) has been going on for the last 2,000 years. So the "hour" of everyone's still-future bodily resurrection (John 5:28-29) can easily span over a thousand-year period (Revelation 20:5).

Also, at both the first and second resurrection, some will undergo "the resurrection of life", while others will undergo "the resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29). For the first resurrection, at Jesus' not-yet-fulfilled second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16), before the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6), will be of all those who became Christians (1 Corinthians 15:21-23). And some of them will lose their salvation at the second coming (e.g. Luke 12:45-46), so that their resurrection will be a "resurrection of damnation" (John 5:29), a resurrection "unto shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), because of such things as unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29), unrepentant laziness (Matthew 25:26,30), or apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8).

The second resurrection, at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15), after the future millennium and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15), will include all those of all times who never became Christians, and all those who became Christians during the millennium (Isaiah 66:19-21). At the great white throne judgment, only those Christians who will lose their salvation, and so will have their names blotted out of the book of life (Revelation 3:5), will be cast into the everlasting punishment of the lake of fire along with all non-Christians (Revelation 20:15,10, Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:45-46).

At the onset of this series of posts BibleWriter's opening statement used a part of Irenaeus's passage in 'Against Heresy's' as a supporting text to enhance his thoughts regarding the Pre-Trib position.
In rebuttal concerning the following Irenaeus passage , "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be."2 For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome, they are crowned with incorruption."

It seems rather clear that the subject of 'And therefore' is not the next part of the sentence but the latter part of the paragraph. It is here we see that the last contest of the righteous in which they must overcome the fear of death by beheading or the starvation and slow death of their loved ones is what the passage is teaching about.
Furthermore a Pre-Trib rapture involves no overcoming other then day to day living and as such would not warrant any special attention being paid to it at all. This is another separate point apart from the actual paragraph itself but I think it fits in well with my thought.
Your interpretation of this passage is flawed IMHO BibleWriter.
love ya

Joseph,
Good point. Same as made in another thread here, about why people would get all worked up about something they are gone from.

Bible2,
I have no idea what you are saying and you say too much. Re "expected at first." The original material is what was expected at first. There would be the DofJ and the end of Daniels weeks, pertaining to Judea, and then the end of the world.

If you don't sort those things out, you're just talking past me. I don't just take your word for it; you have to have reasons. Anyone can turn Scritpure into a firehose, and overquote it.

Interplanner said in post 39:

There would be the DofJ and the end of Daniels weeks, pertaining to Judea, and then the end of the world.

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Regarding Matthew 24:16, there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) today, and they contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a third Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation of the earth (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16 of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution) would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all those in the church that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).