Replacement Theology

coraline said:

It's called proper Biblical hermeneutics and exegesis- comparing scripture with scripture for interpretation of scripture!
Zechariah 13:1 ... In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zechariah 13:7 says "... smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered". There again this passage of Zechariah 13 is all concerning the same time frame. When Christ died and the Shepherd was smitten.
John 4:13-14 ... 13) Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
This makes it plain. When Christ came He gave us salvation and water for the heart. Why can we see the symbolic language of Christ here but many times people cannot see the similar symbolic language of Revelation? There is no crying or weeping, or death, or thirsting, or hungering now. We are no longer under the bondage of the law. Christ has set us free!
Isaiah 12:3 ... Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.
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Revelation 21:7 ... He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
When did we become the sons of God? When Christ came and we became joint heirs with Him. We are now the sons of God if we are saved.
I John 3:1-2 ... 1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Romans 8:14 ... For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
John 1:12 ... But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Galatians 4:5-7 ... 5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7) Wherefore thou are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
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Revelation 21:8 ... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Anyone that is a liar, whoremonger, etc. cannot enter into the kingdom of God. None of these can be a part of the church or be in the New Jerusalem.
Ephesians 5:5 ... For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
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Revelation 21:9-10 ... 9) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. 10) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
We read here that the angel tells John that He will show him the bride, the Lamb’s wife. He then proceeds to show him the New Jerusalem. Who is the Lamb’s wife? The church.
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Revelation 21:11 ... Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
The New Jerusalem has the glory of God and her light is like unto a stone most precious. We can read on in Revelation 21:23 and see that the, "Lamb is the light thereof", of the New Jerusalem. Notice these passages concerning Christ as a stone most precious.
I Peter 2:4-5 ... 4) To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 28:16 ... Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Zechariah 3:9 ... For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
We know from Revelation 5:6 that Jesus is the one with seven eyes. He is the one spoken of in Zechariah 3:9 ... "upon one stone shall be seven eyes". Notice also in the passage that the Lord says that He will "remove the iniquity of that land in one day". What day is that one day? That day is the day of the cross, when the chief cornerstone was laid.
Matthew 21:42-44 ... 42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes? 43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof, 44) and whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
This passage in Matthew is spoken concerning Christ and how the Jews rejected Him but that He has become the head of the corner. Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken.
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Revelation 21:12-13 ... 12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
We can read about the literal gates set up of the children of Israel in Ezekiel 48. The gates described here are not literal gates, but gates of praise.
Isaiah 26:1-2 ... 1) In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks. 2) Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
Isaiah 60:18 ... Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shall call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
Zechariah 2:5 ... For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
We can read Isaiah 60:1-3 and know that this is the time of Christ’s first coming. The rest of the chapter also pertains to the same time period.
Isaiah 60:3 ... And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
When did this happen? The gentiles were grafted in by Christ at His first coming.
Romans 11:17 ... And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
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Revelation 21:14-21 ... 14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18) And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19) And the foundations of the all of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, and chalcedony; the fourth, san emerald; 20) The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21) And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
The city lieth foursquare. The foundations were of all manner of precious stones. Compare this information to Exodus 27 about the priest’s breastplate. We need to also look into Isaiah.
Isaiah 54:10-12 ... 10) For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee. 11) O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires. 12) And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
There again this all happens through salvation by Jesus Christ. As we read earlier we have walls of salvation. When was the covenant of peace made? When Christ died on the cross. The new covenant was established.
Ephesians 2:19-22 ... 19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Notice in Ephesians 2:20 ... that we are now built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets and that Jesus Christ himself is the chief corner stone. This is what is said in revelation 21:14 of the foundation of the New Jerusalem. The names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are in the foundation walls. We are now as the church built together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.
(Excerpt from the New Jerusalem by Thracia Gharst)

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But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

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JLB777 said:

Its called twisting God's word.



This has not happened yet.

We are the temple of God.

That is completely different than what Revelation 21:22 states.

All the lexicon gymnastics in the world won't change that fact.


2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. 4 And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it. 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it. 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb's Book of Life. Revelation 21:2-4,22-27


This is a future event!


JLB

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coraline said:

Oh right, you anticipate a third temple being built Israel.

LOL. We are not going back to animal sacrifices.

Get real. Stop wasting my time.

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coraline said:

Oh right, you anticipate a third temple being built Israel.

LOL. We are not going back to animal sacrifices.

Get real. Stop wasting my time.

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Zeek said:

The third Temple seems to be a distinct possibility as the Temple Mount Faithful have virtually everything in place, all that is needed is a stray rocket to cleanse the area of those abominations, a decisive battle and they will be up there constructing it before you can blink an eye.

Then there is the question of the fourth Temple and the re-institution of animal sacrifices mentioned in Ezekiel...or is that all figurative? (Ez 43)

But what all this has to do with Replacement Theology is beyond me.

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Zeek said:

The third Temple seems to be a distinct possibility as the Temple Mount Faithful have virtually everything in place, all that is needed is a stray rocket to cleanse the area of those abominations, a decisive battle and they will be up there constructing it before you can blink an eye.

Then there is the question of the fourth Temple and the re-institution of animal sacrifices mentioned in Ezekiel...or is that all figurative? (Ez 43)

But what all this has to do with Replacement Theology is beyond me.

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coraline said:

Right, it has to do with certain dispensationalists who insidiously inject that doctrine into everyone else's threads.

God already judged Israel when He took the kingdom away from them in the first century AD.
And He isn't giving it back to them either! God hardened 2/3 of Israel in that wicked generation (Zech13, etc.) God is the Potter.

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JLB777 said:

Zechariah 13 has not happened yet.

Zechariah 13 is an continuation of 12, which has yet to happen.


JLB

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coraline said:

Right, it has to do with certain dispensationalists who insidiously inject that doctrine into everyone else's threads.

God already judged Israel when He took the kingdom away from them in the first century AD.
And He isn't giving it back to them either! God hardened 2/3 of Israel in that wicked generation (Zech13, etc.) God is the Potter.

And the Old Covenant waxed old and passed away too, bc Jesus was the Mediator of the Old to the New.

They were made "deaf and blind" bc God is Sovereign and chose so. They were hardened and they WILL NEVER BE UNHARDENED as dispensationals claim! They were judged in the war when the Romans sacked them and their temple!
As I noted before in Romans 9-11, only the remnant was saved by grace in the New Covenant (at that present time, Rom.11:5)
They rest were judged and suffered God's wrath in the Jewish /Roman war in AD67-70.
ALL people today either accept Christ or they don't!
The Jews were no longer God's chosen people and He's not going to inflict Armageddon on them again either.

And dispensationals talk about "anti-semitism!"

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coraline said:

I know you are hung up on dispensational prophecies and can't hear anything else.
So I'd rather do something positive and enjoyable today than interpret prophecies to you!

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Barraco said:

I can't disagree with anything you said. I do want to address Romans 11:6-26, however.

After Jerusalem and the temple was destroyed, Jews that weren't killed or made slaves went into hiding. One could say that it was dangerous to boast of circumcision. So we see the Hebrew Christians of that time renouncing all forma of Judaism and being called by a new name - Christian. So everyone blended in with the Gentiles. As Revelation 12 shows, the woman (the elect of Israel at that time) went into hiding among the Gentiles.

But we know that Jews maintained their heritage in secret, if possible long after the Diaspora. Romans 11 looks forward to the time when the Jews would be UNblinded. Paul also connected said event to the resurrection.

Paul's optimism is no doubt attached to his love for his fellow countrymen, but also may be looking forward to a time when the Gospel fills the hearts of ALL nations, so that ALL of Israel will be saved.

What do you think?

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coraline said:

But WHEN did the remnant of Israel go into "hiding among the gentiles" as you put it? ( oh, I 'm sorry I thought you were referring to Rev.12)

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This was before AD70 and the destruction of the temple and not after.

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The Faithful of Israel came first for salvation. Then the faithful of the Gentiles were grafted in to the commonwealth of Israel and all her promises.

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Paul makes it clear in Romans 9-11 that there were" 2 Israels " in play in the Text when Romans was written (AD 58 ish)

The Israel of God are the remnant (11:5) and the rest, those from the part of Israel who rejected their Messiah, God predestined to be hardened, blind and deaf.

Paul says in Timothy to forget about useless genealogies for a reason. Because he's referring to the Judaiziring scoffers in those days.

When Herod's temple was destroyed, so were the genealogical records within it.

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Paul's mystery of Jew and Gentile in Christ became the Faith.

Israel today is just like India or Saudi Arabia. Unsaved!

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Barraco said:

I was. The faithful if Israel were the apostles and first disciples. These were the 'first' mentioned in Romans 1:12. These are also the 144,000 that were sealed before God's wrath was taken out on Judea in 66 CE. They, and they alone, are the elect that Paul spoke of. She went into hiding when the Jews killed Stephan. When the Romans persecuted the apostles and elect. This was the war in heaven.

"And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death." (Revelation 12:10, 11 ESV)

Shortly after the persecution under Nero ended, the elect in Jerusalem fled to the Gentiles due to the civil war going on between John, Simon, and Eleazor. As the war in Judea ensued, the Jews tried to deceive the elect, saying that the Messiah had come to the temple and promised to deliver all that fled to Jerusalem. Not the elect though. She fled to the Gentiles and brought them the Gospel. That was what was meant in Rev. 7 when it showed first the 144,000 being sealed and then the great multitude of Gentiles that had come out of great tribulation.

The flood of lies and all the revolutionaries among the Jews were swallowed up my the Roman army, scattering the Jews to the four winds and killing several hundred thousands to 1.1 million Jews. Since the Jews rejected the disciples of Jesus, the elect weren't considered Jews. They mixed in with the Gentiles and their Gospel was warmly received. Just as Matthew 21:43 showed, the promises of Abraham were taken from the Jews and given to the Gentiles.




Agreed! Finally! I didn't think anyone would see it that way.


Agreed again!


Agreed. The severing of the natural branches occurred during the Jewish War from 66-70 CE. Six trumpets were blasted by the time the kingdom was taken from the natural Jews and given to the spiritual Jews. Hopefully, some day the natural branches will have their blindness healed and they can be grafted back in.


I look toward the day when the knowledge of the LORD fills the earth and Christ's authority is recognized in every nation and government. So ALL of Israel will be saved.

"For if their rejection means the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance mean but life from the dead? And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree. Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob"; "and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins." As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." (Romans 11:15, 23-29 ESV)

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coraline said:

This is all good, I'm glad we are in agreement on almost all here.

Only , I see in Romans 9-11 that the "All Israel" to be saved Paul cites to as "Jew and Gentile in Christ."

When he said a part of Israel was hardened., some think it to mean some of Israel were only partially hardened.
This is not the case when we examine the Greek. God hardened a part of Israel, the majority in fact. Only the Remnant would be spared from God's wrath in the AD66-70 war.

There is no favoritism with God. An unsaved Jew today is just the same as an unsaved atheist or Muslim. etc.

I see salvation for the world only in the sense that God calls those in the world out of darkness and into His marvelous light

This is the Prophecy I believe is ongoing and endless:

Isaiah 9:6,7)
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace
There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom,
To order it and establish it with judgment and justice
From that time forward, even forever.
The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

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Barraco said:

Revelation 11 shows the kingdom of God being lived out by both the 144,000 and the Gentile multitude mentioned in Revelation 7. They inherit the blessings of Abraham in as much as they spread righteousness throughout the earth (which the nations hate) and they serve God as priests and kings (Rev. 1:6, 5:10, 20:6.) But according to Revelation 10:11, the prophecy of the two witnesses is about many nations, languages, tribes, and kings. It is, as you said, all inclusive.

They demonstrate even further that they have inherited Abraham's promises in as much as those that curse them are cursed. Those that harm them are harmed in the same way.

The two witnesses describe what is known as the Times of the Gentiles, the time in which Jerusalem belongs to them, see Luke 21:20-24. Paul, in Romans 11:25-26, shows that the Jews (i.e. the Jewish Nation) would be blinded until the Fullness of Gentiles have come in. Thus, when the Two Witnesses finish their testimony, the kingdom of God will have taken hold in all nations except for Israel. Then Israel's blindness will be healed. After the Two Witnesses are resurrected and raptured, and the earthquake destroys a tenth of Jerusalem and kills 7,000 people, the rest there will glorify God.

Even Revelation 11 points to a time when all nations will bow to the kingship of Christ, including the Jewish Nation.

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JLB777 said:

May 14th, 1948.

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coraline said:

There is a section for your Dispensationalism theology.

Don't hijack this thread to post your opinions of Zionism.

Israel today is just a political ally of the U.S. And we certainly favor Israel's culture over Islam's.
Excect maybe for Pres. Obama, who is a Muslim lover and wants to destroy this country's military and economy.

Even the "religious Jews" today believe "the end of Biblical Judaism" was in AD70.

There is only their man-made religious rabbinic Judaism today.

Enough said. I rest my case. Zionism is boring and a waste of my productive time.

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JLB777 said:

God's promise's to Abraham are Eternal.

The Old Covenat was replaced by the New at the cross, not 70 AD.

JLB

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coraline said:

Abrahamic covenant was the "ministration of death?"

The old covenant had to wax old and pass away AFTER Christ introduced the new.

Heaven and earth had to pass before the Law was changed.

Deal with it!

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