Can Christians lose there salvation?

Whatever resurection that we come up in will reveal if we 'REALLY' had any working faith in Christ or not! try the RECORD BOOKS in Eccl. 12's last couple verses. Or Daniel 7:9-10 BOOKS, or Rev's 12 verse of chapter 20,
one more? OK, READ JAMES 2:8-12----P/N/B/

Ps: Oh' yes, what happenes to the ones whose faith is 'sickening' to Christ? see Rev. 3:16-17

Calvin, what do you do---read the first sentence or two and then skip the rest of the post???

Please go back and read ALL of post #195, and then #188. Had you read all of post #195, you would easily have seen that "we are saved by works" was sarcastic. I didn't mean it as a test, but a test it was for you---and you failed. What is the point of answering your posts if you don't read the answers?

RE your post #200---if WE deny HIM, then HE has not denied US, has He? This was really answered in my post #188---please read the second blue paragraph (and the one following). Can a FAITHLESS still be saved? Or do you think this is regarding those who have NEVER BEEN SAVED IN THE FIRST PLACE?

"Can a FAITHLESS still be saved?"

If you're christian God gives you faith..thus if you're a christian you can't can't have faith..hehe..love those double negatives.

Dear ALL:
Before anymore posts on this topic are written, I suggest a reading of John 17. In it we see one of the most beautiful love stories ever written. God gives the elect to His Son, and as Jesus goes to the cross He gives them back to the Father and one day the elect will be given from the Father to the Son. Does anyone actually think that they themselves or anyone or anything else can snatch a love gift to the Father from the Son out of the Father's hands? If so, how can we possibly have hope that our salvation means anything? These are my views as a calvinist, since I have nothing to do with gaining my salvation, I can have nothing to do with losing it.
Rejoicing in God's Irresistible Grace,
Calvinist

No, never. Accepting Christ isn't a two ways street. You accept Him cause He's been waiting for you.

Salvation is an eternal gift. Conviction is you're suffering.

God gives you faith..

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So SAVING-FAITH is a gift from God? You understand Eph2:8 to be saying: "For by grace through grace have you been saved..."? If SAVING-FAITH is bequeathed by God to us, UNILATERALLY, then that is exactly what Eph2 says---saving-faith is nothing more than ADDITIONAL GRACE.

Please show me a Scripture that says, "SAVING-FAITH, comes from GOD? I understand Paul to be saying (Rom10), "faith comes from hearing (the Word)"; and "with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Where in that is saving-faith, or BELIEF, comes from GOD?

Where is the verse that says "God GIVES saving-faith to whom HE chooses?" Where?

Hi, Calvin! The "giving by the Father to Jesus" mirrors parts of John6. Tell me---what is the mechanism behind the "giving"? Does God give some to Jesus, and THEN THEY BELIEVE? Or do they BELIEVE, and God GIVES THEM TO JESUS?

May we look at John6? Verse 42: And they were saying, "Is this not Jesus, son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know?" In other words, "We saw this gujy grow up from a CHILD, didn't we! Who does He think He IS?!?! Much of the passage thus asserts Jesus' equality to God. In verse 28ff, "What shall we do that we may do the works of God?" And Jesus said, "The WORK of God, is that you believe in whom He has SENT." They pressed Him further as to what He had meant about salvation, He spoke of "God's BREAD". They said, "Give us this bread!" Jesus said, "I AM the bread of life; he who comes to me shall not hunger, he who believes shall not thirst. But you have seen Me and do not believe! All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and he who comes I will not cast out. For I came not to do MY will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me---that all He has given Me I shall lose nothing, but raise it up the last day. For this is the will of the Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up the last day."

Verses 39 and 40 make two different references:
1. Those God has given Jesus, God's will is for Jesus to raise up.
2. Those who behold the Son and believe in Him, God's will is for them to be saved and Jesus to raise them up.

But are they really TWO SEPARATE REFERENCES? Are there TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS that Jesus will raise up? NO! Only ONE!

So, it is ONE group who, in verse 39, that God gives Jesus.

And it is the SAME GROUP who in verse 40, believe in Jesus.

Here then is the question: which came first, the GIVING-TO-JESUS, or the BELIEVING-TO-ETERNAL-LIFE? Verse 39 says "All God gives Jesus, HE WILL RAISE UP". Verse 40 says, "All who BELIEVE in Jesus, HE WILL RAISE UP". There is no sequence here---they are PARALLEL. Those who God gives Jesus, ARE they who BELIEVE!

There is no way to understand this passage to indicate, "God gives certain ones to Jesus BEFORE they believe, and THEN they SUBSEQUENTLY believe." No, it's SIMULTANEOUS---they believe AND GOD GIVES THEM TO JESUS!

This passage asserts Jesus' deity; thus Jesus makes the assertion that "if you TRULY come to God in BELIEF, then God gives you to ME!" Because Jesus is EQUAL TO GOD.

In both 39 & 40, the "WILL", is "THELEMA-DESIRE"; there is a will of God that is a DECREE, "Boulema"; nowhere does it say God DECREES certain ones' salvation. It is His DESIRE that those who see Jesus believe in Him, and they will be given to Jesus!

What I am laboring to prove, is that "God's giving-them-to-Jesus, is BECAUSE OF THEIR BELIEF!

But there are some who WILL NOT believe. Why? If GOD decress salvation, then it's because He has NOT decreed it FOR THEM. Yet, in Jn3:19-20, and in Jn8:43-44, John (and in the 2nd, Jesus Himself) very plainly states WHY some won't believe: "because they don't WANT to, they WANT to do evil things, they LOVE DARKNESS, rather than coming to ME-THE-LIGHT!" Do you not see complete, unhindered volition in all of this? God does not choose anyone for salvation, God DESIRES ALL to be saved (1Tim2:4), "If ANYONE enters through Me, he shall be saved!" (Jn10:9) "TIS---ANYONE!"

Salvation is absolutely unlimited in availability---atonement is not limited. "Let whosoever will (O Thelos) take of the water of life freely!" Rev22:17

In John 17, Jesus says, "Thine they were, and Thou hast given them to Me." Do you understand? They were God's, through belief; and because Jesus is the MESSIAH, bringing the NEW COVENANT---thus, in the OLD covenant, they believed in God; Jesus being the NEW covenant, they were given to Jesus.

"Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid; you believe in God, believe also in Me." Jn14:1

Salvation is through belief. We believe in God, we believe in Jesus; we receive Jesus as Lord and Savior, God gives us to Jesus. Not sequential, parallel---all at once. And Jesus will lift us up the last day.

Hi,
you are correct! The post is a good one. If it was emailed to me I would use it [if] I had his permission? ---P/N/B/

My email is:

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SORRY! cherco I mis/spelled in the bottom one!
pastornb@cherco.net
P/N/B/

pastornb@cherico.net

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Originally posted by jayemcintyre
What Ben has said far mroe elequently than me is what I believe. God does in deed save the elect, but I believe that those who believe are the elect, not the elect that believe.

your sister in Christ

Jay

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There are several issues that must be resolved before the "words" of scripture will have meaning in this issue. The basic reason this is true is a simple one. You can find scripture that says that if you fall away you can't come back. (a huge problem) You can find scripture that says that God will let you back (forgive you). So, it's not words!!!!! It's doctrine based upon words.

To understand and form a doctrine you can't pull a word here and there and make an argument from it. Scripture is revealed, it's not an intellectual book.

To form a doctrine concerning salvation you must resolve:
God nature in Salvation
The reason for the cross
The Ministry of Jesus to the Jews
The Ministry of Peter and James to the Jews
The Ministry of Paul to the gentiles
The reason for the Hebrew law
The Jew
The gentile
Mans nature
The tension between the old law and the new covenant.
The tension between Peter and Paul in the area of gentile conversions.
And more.
And more.

I have decided to refrain from discussing this issue because my understanding of the above has convinced me that God saved me (past tense). But, it's not a verse by verse issue, it's His nature, the cross, the ministry of Jesus, the ministry of Peter, James, John and Paul in proper perspective, my nature (born dead), God's nature (in love with me) that has shown me this.

Teachers have been sent, the bible promised it and God did provide them.
I suggest that anyone interested in this area seek out teachers. But challenge them to support views. Here is a method: If you have an understanding of Gods nature, use it!. I would also suggest that seeking another verse to support a position that has no doctrinal basis is like playing "pick up sticks". You might have one or two but at some point your pile is going to spill all over the floor.

Blessings

Hi,
just a couple thoughts on this one?? Perhaps one might want to see what Inspired Scripture tells us? And DOCTRINE is the word used in the below quote.

2 Tim. 3:16 says that this is EXACTLY what God would have us to do! Elder Mike is right on this one paragraph at least, (smile) for we need ALL OF THE PIECES OF THE SUBJECT PUZZEL TO HAVE THE PICTURE IN PLACE! Notice: "[ALL SCRIPTURE] IS GIVEN BY THE INSPIRATION OF GOD, and [Is profitable for DOCTRINE] for reproof, for correction, for instruction IN RIGHTOUSNESS." --------------------------Run we MUST!!!!!!!

But, we are told HOW to do this RUNNING! In Isa. 28 we are told in verse one of 'drunkards'?? (spiritual ones! drunk on the 'wine' & error, of Babylonian confussion! see Rev. 17:4-6)
and 'that are overcome with wine!' (verse 1)

This thread is in question?? the graph is also perplexing! Some are 'drunk' with error! (me, you, or us? we can't ALL be right! No smile, just a LOVING fact!)

Verse 7-10 in part ibide. & with emphasise.

"But they (who are they? we will see later on!) also have erred through wine, and through strong drink, [ARE OUT OF THE WAY;] the [*PRIEST AND THE *PROPHET] HAVE ERRED through strong drink, they are swallowed [UP IN WINE], (notice! what way?) [THEY ARE OUT OF THE WAY] through strong drink; [they ERR IN VISION, AND STUMBLE IN JUDGEMENT].

For [ALL TABLES ARE FULL OF VOMIT AND FILTHINESS, SO THAT THERE IS NO PLACE CLEAN.] ...

(before we go on. the Word's Word of TABLES is important! Where do you go to get FED 'SPIRITUAL FOOD'? You know that Christ told us in Matt. 4:4 'That man does not live by BREAD alone, BUT BY [EVERY WORD] THAT PROCEEDETH OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD'!!
And in Psalms 69:20-22 Christ the Word, tells us that the [*Table (denomination) would BECOME A *TRAPE] and 'Let them be BLOTTED OUT OF THE BOOK ... AND NOT BE WRITTEN WITH THE RIGHTOUS'.)

OK: Now back to how we can understand the 'VOMIT' on the Master's past/tense TABLES?? Pay CLOSE ATTENTION!

verse 9 of Isa. 28, ... Whom shall He teach KNOWLEDGE? and whom shall HE MAKE TO UNDERSTAND [[*DOCTRINE?]] ... For precept [MUST] BE UPON PRECEPT; PRECEPT UPON PRECEPT, **LINE UPON LINE, LINE UPON LINE, **HEAR A LITTLE, AND THERE A LITTLE." ---Run in OTHER WORDS!

The BOTTOM LINE is for the child of God to search the entire Scripture for each DOCTRINE! Get ALL the verses together & there will be the TRUE PICTURE!

And this DOCTRINE THREAD??
NEVER WILL The Word of the Master VIOLATE Rev. 14:6 or Heb. 13:20's "EVERLASTING GOSPEL" or "EVERLASTING COVENANT"! ETERNAL IS LONG BEFORE MAN WAS CREATED! And God's COVENANT IS ETERNALLY CONDITIONAL!
So 'if' man & angels were created Very good & perfect, why were they not ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED? ----P/N/B/
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Originally posted by eldermike

(zapped for content)

To understand and form a doctrine you can't pull a word here and there and make an argument from it. Scripture is revealed, it's not an intellectual book.

[/B]

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You can find scripture that says that if you fall away you can't come back.

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What verse says "you can't come back"? Most often, this is one interpretation of Heb6:4-6. Have you ever read my "interpretation"? Really, not mine---rather, that of those who translated the NASV, among others.

The passage uses "adunatos"---which means, in a fashion, "impossible"; my Greek-scholar-friend tells me, "impossible with things, unable with men". The actual Greek definition (see bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible or www.blueletterbible.com) says "unable, powerless, impotent, impossible". Notice it says, "impossible to make them REPENT"---not, "imipossible to restore to salvation"---their refusal to repent is totally on their shoulders (once again, volition). The FULCRUM of the passage, the REASON they WON'T repent (the reason they don't WANT to repent), is:

BECAUSE (NIV)
SEEING AS (KJV)
SINCE (NASV)
WHILE! (NASV, footnote)

...they fall away and crucify Christ to themselves anew, holding Him to public shame (contempt).

"PARAPIPTOS" is rendered in the "AORIST" form, which very much supports the "continual, presently-occurring-fallING-away".

my understanding of the above has convinced me that God saved me (past tense).

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We agree---we WERE saved, PAST TENSE. It occurs to me that nearly all of my posts here, contend for the nature of salvation. Salvation is FELLOWSHIP with Jesus, with the Spirit, with God through Christ. Fellowship. 1Jn1:3,6. Salvation was accomplished on the Cross---sufficient, complete; Jesus destined-for-the-Cross from the foundation of the World.

"He who HAS the Son has the life; he who has NOT the Son of God has not the life; I write this that you may KNOW you have eternal life." 1Jn5:12-13

Fellowship. He who HAS Jesus, HAS salvation. IS saved. Past tense. Saved two thousand years ago, from a horribly painful Cross. Such love I cannot understand---but I can receive it with humbleness and grattitude!

We HAVE Jesus through belief, through receiving Him into our hearts. Jesus-in-our-hearts is the fellowship, the communion between two real entities, Jesus-and-me, Jesus-and-you.

God's NATURE is exactly why I cannot accept "Predestined-Election". God is infinitely Good, perfectly Just. Those who go to Hell---they must do so by their own fault----it would not be just for it to be God's fault. God is perfect love; for pefect love and perfect justice to exist, salvation must be provided to all, and each is saved when he/she "receives the abundance of grace and the gift of righteousness" (Rom5:17).

But my OPINION of "love and justice" would be nothing if not supported by Scripture---and it is. Salvation, justification, redemption---is offered to ALL (Rom5:18, 1Jn2:2). He who BELIEVES is SAVED (you know the verses). But those who REFUSE to believe, who LOVE darkness and evil, justly deserve condemnation.

As Ezekiel 11 says, "I will give then a new heart, I will remove their hearts of stone and give them hearts of flesh---they will walk in My ways and obey Me, and they will be My people and I their God; but those whose hearts REMAIN going after their detestable things and abominations, I will bring their conduct down on their HEADS!"

ive noticed something Ben you seem to goto the Greek when a verse comes up that you don't agree with. What about the verses you do

Here's a coherent presenation against this doctrine.

http://www.omegaministry.org/saved.html

The trick is, if once saved always saved is true, how do you know when you're saved the first time?

If it's that hard to tell, then it's pointless to believe in once saved always saved.

It gives you a license for immorality to use the words of... I forget.  But it's in one of the epistles

For those of you who believe Christians can lose their salvation, what does it take for a Christian to lose his or her salvation? And then, at that point, what does it take for the same person to regain their salvation?

God saves us under the Covenant. It is defined as EVERLASTING. (all created ones are free 'in' this law) Man/kind AGREES to the conditions of God. (the ten commandments) This law points out sin! And the wages of sin are eternal death. OK, so far??

OK: We accept this contract. (covenant) We surrender the will. And then & only then are we born again. (see Acts 5:32) Now we have the PROVISIONS of the agreement to do the LORDS WORKS OF FAITH. To GROW UP, to MATURE, to DEVELOPE CHARACTER. (see Phil. 4:13 & 2 Cor. 12:9) All along the way, IT IS OUR FREE DECISION TO CONTINUE ON.

SO: we are like PARDONED from prison? ('s'atan is a hard taskmaster) The Lord sets us free! So what happens when we VIOLATE OUR PAROLE? (see Gen. 4:6-7)

We see in 1 Jn. 5:16-17 that there is a sin [not] unto death, yet it says that all 'unrightousness' is SIN. And that there is [a sin unto death]. In the beginning stages of TRANGRESSION, (or sin) we are still easily convicted of sin by the Holy Spirit. When we seen sin, we have the tools to make a free choice! And if we freely choose not to OBEY? We Grieve the Holy Spirit & Quence His work! (try Gen. 6:3) The Lord does not easily give up on us. Yet when we continue on sinning knowingly, regardless if it is a sin of commission or that of omission, WE BECOME HARDENED TO THE HOLY SPIRITS LEADING! (see Rom. 8:14) Being 'LED' is not being forced!

Anyway: When sin is FINISHED It bringeth forth death! Read James 1:14-15. So the bottom line is that ALL sin is very dangerous. Yet, when it is continued on KNOWINGLY, AND OPENLY it will then be PRESUMPTION. (See Psm. 19:13) And will finally fill up the UNPARDONABLE cup of the Lord's Grace. See Heb. 6:6 or Matt. 12:31-32. And in the final Judgement, ALL RECORDED Works will decide ones fate! (see Eccl. 12:13-14)----P/N/B/

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Originally posted by settergren
For those of you who believe Christians can lose their salvation, what does it take for a Christian to lose his or her salvation? And then, at that point, what does it take for the same person to regain their salvation?

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ive noticed something Ben you seem to goto the Greek when a verse comes up that you don't agree with. What about the verses you do

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I go to the Greek to discern the intent of the writer. In Heb6 some say "they WERE NEVER SAVED---just SQUATTERS, visitors-but-never-knew-JESUS"; but the Greek clearly uses, "METOCHOS"---does that allow them to be UNSAVED? It doesn't. And to answer those who say "you can NEVER BE RE-SAVED", the passage doesn't say that either. It only says, "there is no power to restore them to repentance BECAUSE and WHILE they willingly fall away".

If there is a passage of which you think I'm wrong in my understanding, especially Greek, please by all means tell me; I am not a Greek Scholar. In the Heb6 verse, the NASV translators absolutely inserted "WHILE" in the footnote---the only purpose of "WHILE" in the passage at all, is to present the concept of "continual, willful, rebellion". I have a strong suspicion the translators of the NASV know quite a bit more about Scripture and Greek than I do...

well as I believe that to be saved you must believe in that saving grace and repent your sins I also believe that if you stop believing or stop repenting then your salvation will be lost.

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What SHE said!

The reason I persist in these discussions, is that I find myself contending for the nature of salvation. OSAS is not ONE belief, but rather, THREE:

1. Carnal---believe that salvation is RELATIONSHIP apart from FELLOWSHIP; one can be DRUNKARDS and FORNICATORS and ROBBERS and REVILERS, but still be saved...
2. Predestined-Election (or "Reformed Theology", or "CALVINISM" or "UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION" or "Irresistible Grace" or "Limited Atonement")---believe that God has CREATED some for Heaven, and the REST He has created for HELL. Those God CHOSE from the BEGINNING will be saved (nothing you can do about it), those He chooses to IGNORE (for reasons maybe only HE understands), are hopelessly condemned. Faith is but a BEQUEATH of God, He INSTALLS saving-faith in the hearts of those whom He has PRE-CHOSEN.
3. Eternal Security---believe that salvation is offered universally, and he who RECEIVES the free gift (receives Christ), is SAVED; but once "IN", God either changes their hearts so they CANNOT fall, or He interferes dynamically to PREVENT them from leaving, OR---some actually believe God will KILL them (citing 1Cor5:5--ignoring the fact that this would present a HORRIBLY IMMORAL PERSON at the GATES of HEAVEN!!!)

SOOO----(I tend to long posts, don't I???) to ask "what it takes to LOSE salvation", would be the OPPOSITE of what it takes to BE saved!

As Jay eloquently said, "UNBELIEF"! James 1 says "DO NOT BE DECEIVED, my BELOVED BRETHREN"---lust causes sin, sin causes death. Heb3 says, "be careful your hearts not be hardened by the deceitfulness of sins to falling away from the living God".

Col2:6 says, "As you have RECEIVED Christ, so WALK IN Him".

The NATURE of SALVATION, is FELLOWSHIP; there is no "SAVED" apart from the fellowship. Salvation is "abiding in Him" (1Jn4:14-16) Jesus says, in John15, "Anyone who does NOT abide in Me, is cast off as a dried branch ...and is cast into the fire and BURNED!" John asserts in 2:1:7-9 that WE (the saved) are to be wary of the deceivers, and not go too far and not abide in ...Christ!"[/color]

If salvation is BELIEF, then unsalvation is UNBELIEF. Salvation is LORDSHIP---unless we are born again we are not saved; and BORN AGAIN, is "united/immersed-in/buried in Christ" (Rom6), it is "Jesus in us" (Gal2:20), it is "a new creation" (2Cor5:17).

One who receives Jesus as LORD (Master---Rom10:9-10), is saved; one who is deceived by sin, heart hardened to "falling away from the living God" (Heb3), is not saved. Every facet of OSAS contends "they were never saved in the FIRST place"---but Scripture does not bear this out. Those in Heb6, were saved; those in James 5:19-20, were saved. Those in 2Pet2:20-22, were saved. Those in Heb10:26-26, were saved.

Salvation is fellowship---and it requires perseverence, steadfastness, endurance.

...it requires "abiding in Christ"...