Women are especially evil?

Ariadne_GR said:

fortunately women ... don't require your approval.

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It's not even about fortune, Ariadne - there are laws in place, and we have a say in who writes them!!!(Can't you tell you're talking to a Democratic Party volunteer... The midterm election's on our nose!)

But laws are secular, Mariya, they are evil! Btw, hope you know my style well enough that sarcasm becomes apparent! There are laws, there is God-given freewill and everyone is not a carbon copy of each other. Some will never understand such a concept however.

Ariadne_GR said:

But laws are secular, Mariya, they are evil! Btw, hope you know my style well enough that sarcasm becomes apparent! There are laws, there is God-given freewill and everyone is not a carbon copy of each other. Some will never understand such a concept however.

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Laws are evil? Then I guess I can go home?... (I'm now at work, doing overtime, at a law office, LOL).

And I should go home also being that I'm a lawyer. What areas does the office you work at specialise in? I finally got out of family law and in personal injury now, on the side of the insurance company of course!

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Since when is it even proper to comment on another individual's private choices? If folks like to philosophize about what women in general should/should not do - fine, keep writing. But to comment on a specific person present? Her choices are not subject to anyone's discussion or evaluation, are they?

I appreciate the attempt gracefullamb, though I don't want to rehash some of the reactions from those here. TAW prides itself on being welcoming but all I have seen is intolerance and judgmental comments from a certain few. Obviously the post you quoted is directed at me with the childfree reference but this isn't about me, it's a thread about women in general and I'd prefer it stays that way. Thank you for your kind words however. I have actually become more open to the idea of marriage, but the men I meet tend to open with the dealbreaker and as such loving the single life. If the right one comes along, he does, if not that is still perfectly okay with me!

Ariadne_GR said:

Yes, it's very hard for you to understand I know. You can think it evil all you want but fortunately women who do have children and who choose not to know the reasons why for themselves and don't require your approval.

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Actually, I think YOU don't understand ME. And understanding is the key. If you UNDERSTAND something, you can make a judgement about it. If you don't, then all of your ideas about it will go wrong.

I make NO personal judgements about YOU personally. I don't know you. I speak only about the ideas, and the IDEAS are bad - though very often the people who hold them are kind, loving, full of good intentions, like my best friend from childhood leading the fight for "LGBT" "rights". He was my best friend for many years and I know a ton about him. But his ideas are terrible and will tear apart our society. I love him and can say dozens of good things about him, but his world view, the nature of truth, sex and human relations, is wrong.

As to "thinking it evil", we'd need some clarification. I think it entirely Orthodox to be "husband-free" or "wife-free", especially if you are a monastic. But the determined philosophical avoidance of children - either because a married couple is trying to avoid children or because a single person is avoiding marriage NOT because God has called them to a monastic life but BECAUSE they want to avoid children - is wrong. It is the wrong attitude towards life, towards the family, and towards children. It is a massive form of ingratitude, for we were all children and all want to enjoy the good things in life, yet are focused on the self to the point of denying it to children, refusing to "pay it forward".

Again, I make no judgements about you, and I can certainly imagine temporary situations (the sort a priest would bless) that can require abstaining from marital relations and consequently children. But the term "child free" represents a determined philosophical stance outside of any monastic, or even Christian context to not have children - ever, and to see that as a good thing.

There is a fairly simple test - that of the married Orthodox woman flouting such a stance that has suddenly found herself pregnant. She has set herself against having children, and has taken all of the modern means to prevent them, yet God has given her this child. What now? What good are all of her "child free" slogans and assertions? We know abortion is murder. A huge part of Orthodox Christian life is смирение, humbling ourselves to whatever God gives us. But the "child free" slogan says "I will not have it!" this is nothing other than the same pride of self-will that brought about the Fall, and that we all experience, and are called to crush, on a daily basis. The nature of the "choice" is that it says "Let MY will be done, not Thine!"

Ariadne_GR said:

But laws are secular, Mariya, they are evil! Btw, hope you know my style well enough that sarcasm becomes apparent! There are laws, there is God-given freewill and everyone is not a carbon copy of each other. Some will never understand such a concept however.

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I do not say that law itself is evil. It is a necessity in the Fallen order. Nor do I call for "carbon copies". If anything, it is people who, for example, deny the differences between men and women who do that, who seek to make us all interchangeable. I thank God for the differences and that others are NOT me.

But laws that have turned from and deny God, and do the will of the prince of this world, ARE evil. Are laws that seek to force Christians to fund abortifacients, for instance, not evil? Is there not such thing as an evil law?

Law is not the benchmark of morality. Everything Hitler did in Germany as ruler was legal. But it was highly immoral.
So I understand the concepts Ariadne. I merely have the audacity to disagree with you. And I see a difference between people and their ideas, as I said in my remark about my best friend.

As always Rus, a pleasure dealing with you. One only needs to say the term childfree to get your hackles up. Idolatry to a degree perhaps? You know people who are not so sensitive to other people's values and opinions are statistically happier.

gracefullamb said:

That part in bold is the only part I'm commenting on. I get the the childfree label is a bit abrasive, I can't even argue that it isn't, unless one takes into account exactly what Ariadne stated when she first came here and some of the response she got. She made it clear when she first started posting, she was looking for a place that wouldn't look down their nose at her or pressure her because she doesn't feel called to marry and never has felt called to that. I am sorry but some here on TAW have shown a good deal hypocrisy with her. Some at that time and since, have called her a feminist, selfish, and even immature for this. Really? How is her feeling called to a celibate life outside of monasticism any different than our resident bachelors that are given a free pass. How is her feeling called to being single and thus never have children selfish, but our resident bachelors are never told these words. We have several men here at TAW that have made it clear they do not feel called to ever marry but no one ever accuses them of being selfish. No one ever tells those men they'll change their mind when they meet the right gal. No one says to them it is simply the modern western view. Yet she has had people tell her it's because she is a feminist, because she is young, hasn't met the right man, or because she is selfish.

I don't get her decision because I don't feel called to a lifetime of being single and honestly most times I disagree with the position she holds. I do get though why she might have said enough and decided to be abrasive of getting her point across. Why is it alright for a man to feel called to be single and no one tries to demean him or make him feel he is doing something sinful, no one so much as bats eye at it but when a woman has expressed that, some on TAW have decided to demean her and express her motives are sinful? Honestly I have seen no one here attack our resident bachelors for the same exact thing, not being called to marriage, so why the double standard?

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The misunderstandings I see here, GL, are
1) I do not know much about anyone here. I speak to ideas, not people. This, I think, is one difference between men and women, that men speak to ideas and women speak to each other. So as far as I'm concerned, you're reading personal attacks into what I say that are simply not there.
2) If "child free" means "I am called to bachelorhood/spinsterhood", then truly we are talking at cross-purposes. But that is NOT what people who use the term generally mean. They mean that they CHOOSE to avoid children and are trying to cast that choice as a good one. I have yet to see a single Orthodox member rebuking another here for being single. Yet that is what you say is being done. All I have EVER seen at TAW is good will towards celibacy. We say, "Go for it!" But "child free", as an idea, is NOT about celibacy, either in the intent of its users or in the meaning of the idea of being "free from children".

There have been other ideas called "feminist" that have been expressed by members here, we'd have to take each of those ideas on a case-by-case basis. But as an idea, "child free" needs to be torn down. We as Orthodox need to realize that it has nothing to do with either celibacy or monasticism, both of which have gotten along for many centuries without any such term.

There is nothing "wrong" with being single in and of itself, certainly not if the motivation is godly. But the motivation may be ungodly, too. There IS something wrong with being single if one despises the opposite sex, or children, and wants to keep them out of their life, not to pursue God in a cave, but to pursue the "freedom" of the modern single secular life, and that IS what the term "child free" is about.

So I see no double standard at all. If any man here flew the term "child free", I'd give him the same blast from my double-barreled shotgun. The trouble is not in the sex of the person using the term, but in the term itself.

Ariadne_GR said:

As always Rus, a pleasure dealing with you. One only needs to say the term childfree to get your hackles up. Idolatry to a degree perhaps? You know people who are not so sensitive to other people's values and opinions are statistically happier.

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Well, Ariadne, I don't think you're making any effort to understand what I've said about WHY it's bad as a term in itself, just from the choice of words, or how it is actually being used to approve of really ungodly things, even though you yourself, hopefully, do not approve of those things.

I've learned that there ARE such things as evil euphemisms. Would "the Final Solution" get up a Jew's hackles? Of course, and the Jew is not being "idolatrous" - he recognizes a term that makes horrible things (aimed at him and his people, no less) sound inoffensive. If you don't realize that innocuous-sounding terms can really be used to approve of or justify sin, I don't know how else to get that across to you.

Our values OUGHT to be, not our own, but those of the Orthodox Church (and we ought not to even call them "values", but "morals". If everybody has their own private "values" (a term that implies moral relativism, and "value" itself, is an economic term, a term of the marketplace, of buying and selling, something that ought never be applied to morality) then there IS no right or wrong, no sin (for one person's sin is then merely another person's "value".

It must be truly difficult to be you, seeing evil everywhere you go. Just because you can't fathom that any woman could exist that could, gasp, not have a desire to have children, that does not make your view the only view. And this thread actually had nothing to do with this issue, but because you get so caught up in this issue, it comes up again and again. Your point always becomes lost in the hostility of your posts. It's your choice to see evil where there is none, and place your own interpretation on words and meanings. You're placing a blanket generalisation on people from all mixes of backgrounds. Some may love kids, but don't want to have their own, some may have no interest in motherhood/fatherhood, there are multitudes of reasons. Why the intense interest in the wombs of women? You haven't walked in their shoes, you know nothing about their lives other than you seem to interpret their desire to responsibly weigh up whether parenthood is right for them and make a decision, to mean that they are the scum of the earth. How sad that one cannot see the beauty in life as it is.

Ariadne_GR said:

I appreciate the attempt gracefullamb, though I don't want to rehash some of the reactions from those here. TAW prides itself on being welcoming but all I have seen is intolerance and judgmental comments from a certain few. Obviously the post you quoted is directed at me with the childfree reference but this isn't about me, it's a thread about women in general and I'd prefer it stays that way. Thank you for your kind words however. I have actually become more open to the idea of marriage, but the men I meet tend to open with the dealbreaker and as such loving the single life. If the right one comes along, he does, if not that is still perfectly okay with me!

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The next time someone feels it's his or her right to comment on your private life, just make up a crazy reason! In my case, I have worked in my current office for 3 and a half years. The (mostly female) team, of course, became curious as to why I do not date. I avoided the subject but they were so persistent that I had to just tell them the true reason: I was sexually assaulted as a child, the offender went to jail, and that I'm not comfortable with men. Everyone left me alone! I remember once sharing it on this forum also, and no one said a word. So, why not make something up for nosey folks! People do not know others' individual circumstances, so when someone passes judgments on another it doesn't speak in the favor of either his/her intelligence or his/her breeding.

And if someone on this forum insistently comments on your posts in a negative manner - there's always the ignore list.

To answer your earlier question: I work at an immigration law office. I don't make a lot of money, but I love the job. I get to know so many people from different countries, with different stories. I work mainly with abused women, I relate to them well. It's a great feeling when you have been able to help someone!

Ariadne_GR said:

It must be truly difficult to be you, seeing evil everywhere you go. Just because you can't fathom that any woman could exist that could, gasp, not have a desire to have children, that does not make your view the only view. And this thread actually had nothing to do with this issue, but because you get so caught up in this issue, it comes up again and again. Your point always becomes lost in the hostility of your posts. It's your choice to see evil where there is none, and place your own interpretation on words and meanings. You're placing a blanket generalisation on people from all mixes of backgrounds. Some may love kids, but don't want to have their own, some may have no interest in motherhood/fatherhood, there are multitudes of reasons. Why the intense interest in the wombs of women? You haven't walked in their shoes, you know nothing about their lives other than you seem to interpret their desire to responsibly weigh up whether parenthood is right for them and make a decision, to mean that they are the scum of the earth. How sad that one cannot see the beauty in life as it is.

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From the peanut gallery...Rus doesn't seem to be hostile at all, he has been quite charitable in speaking the truth in love. I can't discern why you are sensing hostility, but I think you should consider that he is not being hostile.

I Timothy:12-14 NKJV

And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression.

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I'd also ask non-Orthodox visitors to refrain from teaching here.

And ladies, I don't think the things you think I think. And Kristos is right - no hostility towards others from me! About the only thing I feel right now is frustration that you think
I think that

no woman could exist that could, gasp, not have a desire to have children

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. I don't think any such thing. You misread me. I not only imagine it; I have been there, as has my wife, at times.

In short, you take my observations and twist them to unrecognizability and find the most hostile and dark spin that can even be imagined. I have NO "interest in wombs" as such, do NOT think anyone to be "the scum of the earth", and in general, you are imagining a Rusmeister that doesn't exist. I am NOT commenting on your personal lives in anything peculiar to you - I am speaking about what is true in general for everyone. I pass no individual judgement. I say that ideas are bad, WHOEVER holds them. And surely some, if not all of us, hold bad ideas, and it is right to say that ideas may be bad.

You are speaking to things I don't say at all. You don't understand what I AM saying. Frustration on my part - yes. Hostility - no. I'll keep trying to make my meaning as clear as I can. Maybe I've been doing a poor job on that, but some people here have understood me anyway.

Oh gosh, being so busy living life I only have time to respond to one post. Time is so precious, God has given us one life to live after all and it should be spent in worthy pursuits.

Mariya, that's a good one. I am very sorry however to hear that. I agree with the section I bolded from your post. I can't imagine feeling the right to judge in those circumstances.

It sounds like rewarding work. It must be difficult, some men are afraid of smart, strong and independent women, hence the abused women that you deal with. It's a matter of control. I've only come across a few battered women in my work and they were indeed broken.

Keep enjoying what you are doing and thank you for your responses. It's refreshing to see posts in here that are kind and thoughtful.

Mariya116 said:

The next time someone feels it's his or her right to comment on your private life, just make up a crazy reason! In my case, I have worked in my current office for 3 and a half years. The (mostly female) team, of course, became curious as to why I do not date. I avoided the subject but they were so persistent that I had to just tell them the true reason: I was sexually assaulted as a child, the offender went to jail, and that I'm not comfortable with men. Everyone left me alone! I remember once sharing it on this forum also, and no one said a word. So, why not make something up for nosey folks! People do not know others' individual circumstances, so when someone passes judgments on another it doesn't speak in the favor of either his/her intelligence or his/her breeding.

And if someone on this forum insistently comments on your posts in a negative manner - there's always the ignore list.

To answer your earlier question: I work at an immigration law office. I don't make a lot of money, but I love the job. I get to know so many people from different countries, with different stories. I work mainly with abused women, I relate to them well. It's a great feeling when you have been able to help someone!

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