Replacement Theology

coraline · May 19, 2013

by janxharris:

I follow much of what you are saying, but I am still unclear of your position. Would you tell me your understanding of Matthew 23:39 please?

Well, my position is "remnant theology" as opposed to "replacement theology" where Israel of the Bible is concerned.

The difference may be recognized by the fact that God judged Israel in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.

As far as Matthew 23:39 ............
Israel was seeing their Messiah in person, as Jesus says in the next passage. But fact was and is, that most of Israel rejected Him.
So, in verse 39, I believe Jesus is saying to Israel that He wasn't going to visit them anymore during his earthly ministry; go back to their cities and feasts, do miracles, etc. for they were unwilling.

Jesus Laments over Jerusalem

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! [g] (Matt.23:37-39)

And what's more is that that "wicked generation" of Jews had their fate prophesied in the O.T. too (Zech 13-14) Also Isaiah 2-4 and Isa.65-66)

However, God had chosen an elect remnant to be saved by grace. We see this in Acts 2, in Peter's sermon. Which I see as an allusion of fulfillment of Zech. 12 and to the remnant of Israel.

Hope I was able to articulate my points clearly enough.

janxharris · May 19, 2013

coraline said:
by janxharris:Well, my position is "remnant theology" as opposed to "replacement theology" where Israel of the Bible is concerned.

The difference may be recognized by the fact that God judged Israel in the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70.

As far as Matthew 23:39 ............
Israel was seeing their Messiah in person, as Jesus says in the next passage.
But fact was and is, that most of Israel rejected Him.
So, in verse 39, I believe Jesus is saying to Israel that He wasn't going to visit them anymore during his earthly ministry; go back to their cities and feasts, do miracles, etc. for they were unwilling.

How does:
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

Translate to:
Jesus is saying to Israel that He wasn't going to visit them any more during his earthly ministry; go back to their cities and feasts, do miracles, etc. for they were unwilling.

You make no mention of the words: Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

However, God had chosen an elect remnant to be saved by grace. We see this in Acts 2, in Peter's sermon. Which I see as an allusion of fulfillment of Zech. 12 and to the remnant of Israel.

What do you mean by allusion of fulfillment?

Jack Terrence · May 19, 2013

janxharris said:
Translate to:
Jesus is saying to Israel that He wasn't going to visit them any more during his earthly ministry; go back to their cities and feasts, do miracles, etc. for they were unwilling.

Jesus was saying it to THAT generation. There is no reference whatsoever to any future generation. It was conditional. They failed to meet the condition. Jesus left the door open for them for one last time and they shut the door upon themselves.

The kingdom was TAKEN AWAY from them. All is fulfilled through the Church. Example: The resurrection and rapture was promised TO ISRAEL (Hosea 13:14), but is fulfilled in the Church instead (1 Cor. 15:50-55),

Commentary on Hosea 13:14:

[T]his verse is one of the old Testament great affirmations of God's power over the last enemy, death. Whereas the old Israel of Hosea's time did not avail itself of the divine power over death, the true spiritual Israel experiences it. Reformation Study Bible note, p. 1379

Hosea 13 with 1 Corinthians 15 destroys the view that Israel still has a future. The dispensationalists CANNOT wiggle out of this one. Furthermore, Paul and Barnabas denounced them saying,

It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us:

I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.

Paul told the Gentiles at Ephesus that he was a "prisoner" for their sakes, (Eph. 3:1). He was a prisoner for preaching the "hope of Israel" to them Acts 28:20).

This is inescapable! The dispensationalists say that the church cannot take away so much as one promise from Israel. Yet it is the church and not Israel that experiences Israel's resurrection and rapture! The church "takes" nothing. Israel FORFEITED it all!

The only thing the dispensationalist can do to be consistent is to deny that the resurrection and the rapture is for the church.

No more time today.

coraline · May 19, 2013

janxharris said:
How does:
For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

Translate to:
Jesus is saying to Israel that He wasn't going to visit them any more during his earthly ministry; go back to their cities and feasts, do miracles, etc. for they were unwilling.

You make no mention of the words: ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’

Well, bc Matt.23:39 is directed at unbelieving Jews and Jesus gives reasons all through Matt.23 why they won't see Him again during his ministry.
These are not the Jews that repented and were baptized in the Spirit.

Acts 2:36-47,
(Peter speaking at Pentecost)
36 “Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
38 Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.”
A Vital Church Grows

40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, “Be saved from this perverse generation.” 41 Then those who gladly[g] received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them. 42 And they continued steadfastly in the apostles’ doctrine and fellowship, in the breaking of bread, and in prayers. 43 Then fear came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. 44 Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, 45 and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.
46 So continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they ate their food with gladness and simplicity of heart, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church[h] daily those who were being saved.

This is part of the "remnant at the present time saved by grace" (Romans 11)
I'm sure there were more,. God gave a prophetic number of 144,000. It's not literal, but it incorporates the #12 times the 12 tribes of Israel.
(That's a story in itself, lol!)

What do you mean by allusion of fulfillment?

Acts 2 above is pointing to the fulfillment of OT prophecy in Zech.12-14.
The timing is correct. This is the "Day of the Lord" for Israel in prophecy- AD70. Judgment on the Jews who would not have Him reign over them as Messiah.
The Shepherd Savior

7 “Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,”
Says the Lord of hosts.
“Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;
Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass in all the land,”
Says the Lord,
“That two-thirds in it shall be cut off and die,
But one–third shall be left in it:
9 I will bring the one–third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name,
And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people’;
And each one will say, ‘The Lord is my God.’”

This passage separates the 2 Jerusalems (Paul spoke of in Galatians)
The Jerusalem that was then "in bondage with her children" and the Jerusalem which is above, free, and the mother of us all!

jdbear · May 20, 2013

coraline said,
Second, Israel's salvation would come at the time of Israel's judgment. See also Isaiah 2-4; 64-66; Zechariah 12-14, etc.. In other words, Israel would be saved by judgment, not from judgment. She would be saved by eschatological transformation, not national restoration.

Saved by judgement? That's interesting.

coraline said,
In Zech.12-14 we see that a remnant of Israel was going to be saved and in ch.13, 2/3 of Israel was going to be destroyed.

Also interesting. I'll have to look at this more closely.

coraline said,
1) Jesus is referring to natural Israel in the Lk.13 parable. This I believe happened in the fall of Jerusalem and the temple made with hands in AD70.

The angels remove the wicked from the Kingdom at the end of this world as we know it.

coraline said,
2) And when is the kingdom to come? You say "it hasn't been manifested yet. Is it here now or is it yet future?

It's here now, but will be manifested in the future

coraline said,
When John and Jesus began to preach, they said that the kingdom of heaven was "at hand" - it was near! We also saw that later in His ministry Jesus said that the kingdom had arrived:

"At hand" means within your reach and through faith, the Kingdom has alway been within reach.

coraline said,
Matthew 12:28, "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.
Now, if the kingdom of God had come in the first century, then it should be clear that the nature of the kingdom was spiritual. Time defines nature. Jesus said that the kingdom "has come" - TIME, so the NATURE of his kingdom must be spiritual. I think that Jesus tried to stress this point by saying that the kingdom did not come with observation:
Luke 17:20, The Pharisees asked Jesus when the kingdom of God would come. He answered them, "People can't observe the coming of the kingdom of God.

Jesus was speaking of the Kingdom in a spiritual sense.

coraline said,
The spiritual nature of the kingdom is easy to understand if you see that the kingdom is the church. The Kingdom and the Church are synonymous. The two words are used as synonyms in Matthew:
Matthew 16:18-19, "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Here Jesus discusses the Kingdom and the Church almost in the same breath. Jesus tells Peter, "The confession you just made will be the foundation of My Church and I'm going to give you authority in the kingdom". When Jesus told Peter he was giving him authority in the Kingdom, was Peter being given power of something that he would never exercise. Would this exercise of power not happen in his life time? Had the Kingdom really come? Jesus said that the Kingdom "had come".
If you accept the concept of the Church and the Kingdom are one, then lights should begin turning on. We could say that when a person enters into a Covenant relationship with God by faith and becomes a member of his church that he also gains citizenship in Christ's Kingdom.
Colossians 1:12-14 (NKJV) giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
The Kingdom of the Son, Kingdom of light, and the redemption and forgiveness of sins are present tense. Rescued from the dominion of darkness is past tense. Why is the kingdom of the son and the kingdom of light present tense? Because the kingdom had come and it was present when Colossians was written.
So, let's look at how the Bible describes the Kingdom and the Church. We receive redemption and forgiveness in the Church:
Acts 2:47 (NKJV) praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
We also see that redemption and forgiveness of sins happens in the Kingdom of Christ:
Colossians 1:13-14 (NKJV) He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
So redemption and forgiveness of sins happens in the Church and in the Kingdom of Christ. Why? Because they're the same. Could you have redemption in one and not the other? NO! The kingdom is the church, and the church is the kingdom.
Matthew 19:23-26 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Their question, "Who then can be saved?" revealed the connection in their mind between entering the kingdom of heaven (v. 23) with being saved (v. 25). To enter God's kingdom is to be saved, and to be saved is to be in God's kingdom.
Both the Church and Kingdom are spoken of as being present tense. Both are spoken of as where we receive redemption and forgiveness of sins through Jesus. Both the Kingdom and the Church are headed by Christ.

I don't think the Church and Kingdom are the same. I think the Church is within the Kingdom. The Kingdom encompasses the entire earth, but Israel has definite geographical bounds in the eternals. I believe the Church (the Bride of Christ) and Israel are synonymous. The Kingdom and the Church have been here from the beginning, that is members of them. I think Israel (the Church or Bride of God) is a select group of believers

jdbear · May 20, 2013

janxharris said,
Not sure why you have said this but, yes, God could have chosen anyone.

Because salvation (or damnation) has nothing to do with race.

janx said,
Because God's people (the Jews) had, in general, rejected Him, God made the decision to switch and work through the Gentiles (the Gentile church). I agree, it does include Messianic Jews.

There is only one church which is comprised of Jews and gentiles.

janx said,
I do agree but it is true that most members of the church are gentiles. Romans 9 is clear on this:
vv.30-33
What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone. As it is written: See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes people to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who believes in him will never be put to shame.

I think Adam and Eve were the first two church members. I think saved Israel and the church are synonymous.

janx said,
For me this verse is key. Jesus cannot be speaking of all men because not all men will believe in Him.
Also, He cannot be speaking of all Jews, for the same reason. It is the Jewish religious leaders that Jesus attacks in this chapter (Matthew 23):
v.15
Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.
Jesus is making the point that it is the teachers that are to have greater responsibility (James 3:1).
Since Christians then and now do and would say those words 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord' (there, I just said them), Jesus is not talking about 'anyone'. His words can only make sense if their application is restricted to unbelieving Jews and particularly the Jewish religious leaders

But janx, we weren't always Christians. When did we see Jesus? Wasn't it when we learned to say, "Blessed is He...?" It's true that Jesus was speaking to the Rabbis, but His words apply to everyone.

janx said,
Indeed, God only has an intimate relationship with believers.

Exactly. You cannot see Jesus unless you love Him. It applies to everyone.
"...the world...seeth him not..." Jn.14:17

Okay, but I'm not sure how that helps.

It's another example of not seeing. "Unless you are born again, you cannot see the Kingdom of God." The wicked will be taken out of the Kingdom, which means in some way, they're in it now.

Hismessenger · May 20, 2013

Replacement theology is a distraction to keep us from the truth. The truth is, Israel has never been just about a physical people but about those who believe by faith in the risen savior. The fact of the matter is that Abraham was a gentile saved by grace through faith. Look at his origins and where he came from. The Idolatrous nation of Ur. His father practiced idolatry but God gave him a heart to trust his faith and follow where God would lead.. The true Israel is borne of the heart, not nationality. So Israel has always, those of faith, been the true church. There is no replacement of that which has always been

hismessenger

coraline · May 20, 2013

jdbear said:
Saved by judgement? That's interesting.
Also interesting. I'll have to look at this more closely.

Ok,

The angels remove the wicked from the Kingdom at the end of this world as we know it.

End of this world? No. That's was too religious for me. I am spiritual. God sent me a reality check on that one years ago!
The end of the age, yes. And that was Israel's "age" and judgment. Remnant saved, wicked destroyed.

It's here now, but will be manifested in the future

I just wrote a long post about the kingdom of God. I asked you at the end what do you mean "it hasn't been manifested yet"
Why ignore my post and state the same thing again?

"At hand" means within your reach and through faith, the Kingdom has alway been within reach.

Don't try to kid this kid. God can tell time to us. He does it throughout the Bible. At hand means "near in time" Thank you.

Jesus was speaking of the Kingdom in a spiritual sense.

Of course. And He said it had come upon those He was speaking to.

So. what other kingdom did Jesus say would come or happen or manifest?

Can you give me proof of Him saying a renewed physical kingdom of flesh and blood was going to manifest later?

I don't think the Church and Kingdom are the same. I think the Church is within the Kingdom. The Kingdom encompasses the entire earth, but Israel has definite geographical bounds in the eternals. I believe the Church (the Bride of Christ) and Israel are synonymous. The Kingdom and the Church have been here from the beginning, that is members of them. I think Israel (the Church or Bride of God) is a select group of believers

That's ok.
But I disagree.
I like my exegesis better how the kingdom of God is actually His church.

coraline · May 21, 2013

by jdbear:

I don't think the Church and Kingdom are the same. I think the Church is within the Kingdom. The Kingdom encompasses the entire earth, but Israel has definite geographical bounds in the eternals.

With further inspection of your response, this doesn't make sense to me. This seems to be saying that the Kingdom includes unbelievers, since you say that the Kingdom encompasses the entire earth, which it does, but is ONLY for believers!
I'm sure those not in the kingdom of light are in the darkness.

Also,

The Kingdom and the Church have been here from the beginning, that is members of them. I think Israel (the Church or Bride of God) is a select group of believers

I'm scratching my head.... Believers in what?
And what is a "select believer?"

LittleLambofJesus · May 21, 2013

coraline said:
by jdbear:

With further inspection of your response, this doesn't make sense to me. This seems to be saying that the Kingdom includes unbelievers, since you say that the Kingdom encompasses the entire earth, which it does, but is ONLY for believers!
I'm sure those not in the kingdom of light are in the darkness.

Also,

I'm scratching my head.... Believers in what?
And what is a "select believer?"

Could that be the same as "elect believer"? :idea:

Isa 65:22
They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, [so shall be] the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Mat 24:31
"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

.

coraline · May 21, 2013

LittleLambofJesus said:
Could that be the same as "elect believer"?

Isa 65:22
They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, [so shall be] the days of My people,
And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.

Mat 24:31
"And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet,
and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

.

I don't know, that's why I'm asking jdbear.

Even if he means "elect" as in your examples, God doesn't use the phrase "elect believers."
One couldn't be His "elect" and not be a "believer"

by jdbear:

I believe the Church (the Bride of Christ) and Israel are synonymous. The Kingdom and the Church have been here from the beginning, that is members of them. I think Israel (the Church or Bride of God) is a select group of believers

It stands to reason that one is a believer or they are not. They may be called a "select group" but why the classifications of believers?

The "elect" were always those of Faith,.

Maybe jdbear will answer sometime today.

But he's still in the hot seat about the "kingdom hasn't been manifested yet" question I asked.

jdbear · May 21, 2013

coraline said,
End of this world? No. That's was too religious for me. I am spiritual. God sent me a reality check on that one years ago!
The end of the age, yes. And that was Israel's "age" and judgment. Remnant saved, wicked destroyed.

coraline, I made a mistake in citing Lk.13 when I was actually citing Mt.13. When Jesus explained the parable of the wheat and tares (vss.36-43), He said we are now growing along with the children of the devil and at the "end of the world" (vs.39), they wicked will be gathered "out of His Kingdom..." (vs.41).
" the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it." Pr.2:22
Why are the devils people torn out of the earth? Because Gods people are going to "inherit the earth." Mt.5:5

coraline said,
Don't try to kid this kid. God can tell time to us. He does it throughout the Bible. At hand means "near in time" Thank you.

You're welcome kid, but with respect to the Kingdom being "at hand", Jesus said it was here now. You said it yourself:

Your quote:
Of course. And He said it had come upon those He was speaking to.

So when He told His disciples to preach the Kingdom was at hand (Mt.10:7), He meant it was here now, not "near in time." It was within their reach, or "at" their "hand" to take.

coraline said,
So. what other kingdom did Jesus say would come or happen or manifest?

There is no "other Kingdom." The one and only Kingdom is being sown in the earth now and will be manifested when believers are physically raised from the dead.

coraline said,
Can you give me proof of Him saying a renewed physical kingdom of flesh and blood was going to manifest later?

Flesh and blood (1 Cor.15:50) doesn't inherit the Kingdom, but the body is sown in weakness and raised in power (same chapt.) This includes the body believers will be given when the physical resurrection occurs. We reap what we sow, but nobody knows exactly what the furture body will look like. If we didn't know it, we would never imagine that a oak tree comes from an acorn. This is what the resurrection will be like.

coraline said,
That's ok.
But I disagree.
I like my exegesis better how the kingdom of God is actually His church.

The Church is called the Bride, which is called the New Jerusalem. This Jerusalem is called the City of God. This City which comes from Heaven will be located within the Nation of Israel and has definite boundaries. Therefore, it doesn't encompass the entire earth:

"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.." Heb.12:22
"...and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal." (1500 miles cubed) Re.21:16
The Kingdom does encompass the entire earth:
"...and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." Da.2:35
"...The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ..." Re.11:15
I think it's very possible that being a Citizen of the City is a reward for faithful service to God:
"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name." Re.3:12
Contrary to Jesus' words, most Christians think there is nothing to overcome. They believe every saved person is entitled to the reward Jesus speaks of here. I disagree:
"...every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour." 1 Cor.3:8
"And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities." Lk.19:17
There will be a heirarchy in the Kingdom which fills the earth, with the Jewel being where God in Person lives:
"And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever..." Eze.43:7

coraline said,
I just wrote a long post about the kingdom of God. I asked you at the end what do you mean "it hasn't been manifested yet"
Why ignore my post and state the same thing again?

Ok, I will go back and comment on your hard work, but I'm exhausted from working at work and around the house so I appreciate your patience.

coraline · May 22, 2013

jdbear said:

coraline, I made a mistake in citing Lk.13 when I was actually citing Mt.13. When Jesus explained the parable of the wheat and tares (vss.36-43), He said we are now growing along with the children of the devil and at the "end of the world" (vs.39), they wicked will be gathered "out of His Kingdom..." (vs.41).
" the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it." Pr.2:22
Why are the devils people torn out of the earth? Because Gods people are going to "inherit the earth." Mt.5:5

No problem. I didn't check the "Luke" parable quote either with my response.
Anyway, Jesus did give parables throughout the synoptic gospels that referred to natural Israel only.
How do we know this?
Well, Jesus' ministry was confined to the cities in earthly Israel. He said :
24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Mt.15:24)

And this includes Mt.13 parable of the wheat & tares.
Jesus had told the Pharisees how a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. And in that context He was speaking not just a general statement, but about Israel's kingdom- the one which would be "taken away from them."

Why are the devils people torn out of the earth? Because Gods people are going to "inherit the earth." Mt.5:5

The Sermon on the Mount Beatitudes is not about judgment, It's about those in the "spirit" in the New Covenant of grace- its teachings and their blessings IN THIS LIFE!
5 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness’ sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you. (Mt.5:5-12)

You're welcome kid, but with respect to the Kingdom being "at hand", Jesus said it was here now. You said it yourself:

So when He told His disciples to preach the Kingdom was at hand (Mt.10:7), He meant it was here now, not "near in time." It was within their reach, or "at" their "hand" to take.

That's not what my previous post said. In Mt.10:7, He told his disciples still to preach the kingdom was "at hand."
When John and Jesus began to preach, they said that the kingdom of heaven was "at hand" - it was near! We also saw that later in His ministry Jesus said that the kingdom had arrived:

Matthew 12:28, "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

coraline said,
Can you give me proof of Him saying a renewed physical kingdom of flesh and blood was going to manifest later?

Flesh and blood (1 Cor.15:50) doesn't inherit the Kingdom, but the body is sown in weakness and raised in power (same chapt.) This includes the body believers will be given when the physical resurrection occurs. We reap what we sow, but nobody knows exactly what the furture body will look like. If we didn't know it, we would never imagine that a oak tree comes from an acorn. This is what the resurrection will be like.

Paul isn't describing a " resurrection of the flesh" to heaven here.
He's describing the resurrection of our spirit (immortality of) and eternal life, when the New Covenant would be consummated.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”[g]
55 “O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?”[i]

56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

The Church is called the Bride, which is called the New Jerusalem. This Jerusalem is called the City of God. This City which comes from Heaven will be located within the Nation of Israel and has definite boundaries. Therefore, it doesn't encompass the entire earth:

First of all, in Revelation, "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" The New Jerusalem is indeed the "spiritual" city depiction in the New Covenant (heaven and earth)
Indeed, the city came from heaven and is the Bride.
The city is shaped like a square to represent the "holy of holies" in the original temple.

Earthly Jerusalem is NOT in the New Covenant of Grace in Christ. This is the Jerusalem which "is above, free, and the mother of us all" in Galatians.

This New Jerusalem is the Kingdom of believers worldwide.

Outside are "the dogs" etc.

But notice how the salvation call is still going on there/here:

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But[h] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev.22:14-17)

jdbear · May 23, 2013

coraline said,
The spiritual nature of the kingdom is easy to understand if you see that the kingdom is the church. The Kingdom and the Church are synonymous. The two words are used as synonyms in Matthew:
Matthew 16:18-19, "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. 19 "And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."
Here Jesus discusses the Kingdom and the Church almost in the same breath. Jesus tells Peter, "The confession you just made will be the foundation of My Church and I'm going to give you authority in the kingdom". When Jesus told Peter he was giving him authority in the Kingdom, was Peter being given power of something that he would never exercise. Would this exercise of power not happen in his life time? Had the Kingdom really come? Jesus said that the Kingdom "had come".

Jesus also said that twelve would sit on thrones judging the tribes of Israel. From this statement and the ones you cited, should we draw the conclusion in the regeneration, no other nations will exist?

coraline said,
If you accept the concept of the Church and the Kingdom are one, then lights should begin turning on. We could say that when a person enters into a Covenant relationship with God by faith and becomes a member of his church that he also gains citizenship in Christ's Kingdom.
Colossians 1:12-14 (NKJV) giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
The Kingdom of the Son, Kingdom of light, and the redemption and forgiveness of sins are present tense. Rescued from the dominion of darkness is past tense. Why is the kingdom of the son and the kingdom of light present tense? Because the kingdom had come and it was present when Colossians was written.

All true, but the Kingdom of God permeates the entire earth. The New Jerusalem does not. If you cannot explain this inconsistancy, you might be wrong.

coraline said,
So, let's look at how the Bible describes the Kingdom and the Church. We receive redemption and forgiveness in the Church:
Acts 2:47 (NKJV) praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
We also see that redemption and forgiveness of sins happens in the Kingdom of Christ:
Colossians 1:13-14 (NKJV) He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins.
So redemption and forgiveness of sins happens in the Church and in the Kingdom of Christ. Why? Because they're the same. Could you have redemption in one and not the other? NO! The kingdom is the church, and the church is the kingdom.
Matthew 19:23-26 (NKJV) Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Assuredly, I say to you that it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 "And again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." 25 When His disciples heard it, they were greatly astonished, saying, "Who then can be saved?" 26 But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Their question, "Who then can be saved?" revealed the connection in their mind between entering the kingdom of heaven (v. 23) with being saved (v. 25). To enter God's kingdom is to be saved, and to be saved is to be in God's kingdom.
Both the Church and Kingdom are spoken of as being present tense. Both are spoken of as where we receive redemption and forgiveness of sins through Jesus. Both the Kingdom and the Church are headed by Christ.

That's true, but I think it's possible citizenship in the Kingdom of God is the result of Christs' work and citizenship in the Capital City within the Kingdom of God is a reward of the believers works.

coraline said,
No problem. I didn't check the "Luke" parable quote either with my response.
Anyway, Jesus did give parables throughout the synoptic gospels that referred to natural Israel only.

That's true, but Mt.13 isn't one of them.

coraline said,
How do we know this?
Well, Jesus' ministry was confined to the cities in earthly Israel. He said :
24 But He answered and said, I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Mt.15:24)

It is obvious Jesus said this to test the Samaritan womans faith. If this wasn't the case, He wouldn't have honored her request.

coraline said,
And this includes Mt.13 parable of the wheat & tares.

No it doesn't. The time frame of this passage is the end of the world and describes a one time furtue event that will forever separate the the faithful from the faithless by the faithless being cast into fire.

coraline said,
Jesus had told the Pharisees how a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand. And in that context He was speaking not just a general statement, but about Israel's kingdom- the one which would be "taken away from them."

No He wasn't. Jesus was referring to Satans kingdom and the logical teaching that Satan doesn't undo his own work. He said this because the Rabbis accused Him of performing miracles by the power of the devil.

coraline said,
The Sermon on the Mount Beatitudes is not about judgment, It's about those in the "spirit" in the New Covenant of grace- its teachings and their blessings IN THIS LIFE!

Actually sis, the sermon on the mount continues until the end of chapter 7 and does speak about judgement, but you totally ignored the text I cited dealing with Satans children being removed out of Gods Kingdom.

coraline said,
That's not what my previous post said. In Mt.10:7, He told his disciples still to preach the kingdom was "at hand."
When John and Jesus began to preach, they said that the kingdom of heaven was "at hand" - it was near! We also saw that later in His ministry Jesus said that the kingdom had arrived:
Matthew 12:28, "But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.

The Kingdom of God has been here since the beginning of creation.

coraline said,
Paul isn't describing a " resurrection of the flesh" to heaven here.
He's describing the resurrection of our spirit (immortality of) and eternal life, when the New Covenant would be consummated.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory.[g]
55 O Death, where is your sting?[h]
O Hades, where is your victory?
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

No sis. Paul is describing a transformed bodily resurrection from the grave like the one Jesus experienced.

coraline said,
Earthly Jerusalem is NOT in the New Covenant of Grace in Christ. This is the Jerusalem which "is above, free, and the mother of us all" in Galatians. This New Jerusalem is the Kingdom of believers worldwide.
Outside are "the dogs" etc.
But notice how the salvation call is still going on there/here:
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments,[g] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But[h] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. (Rev.22:14-17)

Click to expand...

Well my friend, we have a big problem if outside the New Jerusalem there are dogs etc., because the Prophets have said the entire earth will be filled with the knowledge of God and be at peace. No way that could be if there were sorcerers running around outside. Also, gentile believers enter into the promises God first made with the Jews. Jesus' "church" will include Abraham, Isaac, etc.

coraline · May 23, 2013

jdbear said:
Jesus also said that twelve would sit on thrones judging the tribes of Israel. From this statement and the ones you cited, should we draw the conclusion in the regeneration, no other nations will exist?

Maybe you misunderstand what and when the "regeneration" is!
Did you get born again and "put on the new man?"
So, my answer is YES, the gentiles too were going to be saved. Israel was going to have a major Spiritual awakening and covenant change through their Messiah, but the gentiles were going to be grafted in. God showed this to Peter in Acts 10.
Paul describes this regeneration in Col.3 5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

All true, but the Kingdom of God permeates the entire earth. The New Jerusalem does not. If you cannot explain this inconsistancy, you might be wrong.

You also said this:

The Church is called the Bride, which is called the New Jerusalem. This Jerusalem is called the City of God. This City which comes from Heaven will be located within the Nation of Israel and has definite boundaries. Therefore, it doesn't encompass the entire earth:

I disagree with that. The Kingdom of God is within you, and the New Jerusalem is the church universal.
And regarding the New Jerusalem, the things of God are spiritual in essence and not material. God is not concerned with literal pearls and gold. But for our finite minds, He gives us something to relate to. God gives us the symbolic description of the New Jerusalem.
Like the prophets said, its walls are salvation and its gates are praise.

That's true, but I think it's possible citizenship in the Kingdom of God is the result of Christs' work and citizenship in the Capital City within the Kingdom of God is a reward of the believers works.

"Citizenship in the kingdom of God?"
Paul says our "citizenship is in heaven" We are temples of the living God through the Spirit if we are Christ's. The kingdom of God is within us. It is spiritual then and not a literal kingdom, like the Pharisees asked Jesus "when the kingdom of God would come."

That's true, but Mt.13 isn't one of them.

Of course it is. There was a reason Jesus spoke in parables to the Jews.See Matthew 13:10: And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" Study it a little more and see that 2/3 of Israel was predestined by God in that generation to be destroyed. (Romans 9-11; Zech.13; Isa.2-4; Isa.65-66)

It is obvious Jesus said this to test the Samaritan womans faith. If this wasn't the case, He wouldn't have honored her request.

Read it again please. Jesus wasn't "testing" anyone. He granted her a miracle bc she showed her faith!

No it doesn't. The time frame of this passage is the end of the world and describes a one time furtue event that will forever separate the the faithful from the faithless by the faithless being cast into fire.

The "end of the age" is what you are referring to as "the end of the material world as we know it." (see Matthew 24: 1-3. Note: the KJV is in error to use the word 'world' Every other version corrects this)

No He wasn't. Jesus was referring to Satans kingdom and the logical teaching that Satan doesn't undo his own work. He said this because the Rabbis accused Him of performing miracles by the power of the devil.

That passage doesn't illuminate the synagogue of Satan Jews as much as this one , for example: John 8:
Abraham’s Seed and Satan’s

37 “I know that you are Abraham’s descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.”
39 They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus said to them, “If you were Abraham’s children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.”
Then they said to Him, “We were not born of fornication; we have one Father—God.”
42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears God’s words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.”

Actually sis, the sermon on the mount continues until the end of chapter 7 and does speak about judgement, but you totally ignored the text I cited dealing with Satans children being removed out of Gods Kingdom.

You cited Mt.5:5 and said the why are devil's people would be rooted out of the world... bc God's ppl are going to "inherit the earth"
Mt.5:5 says "the meek will inherit the earth" And the Sermon was Jesus' teachings for His church and within the church today. Are you meek? Study what "humility" means as opposed to being proud in the books of Timothy.

The Kingdom of God has been here since the beginning of creation.

Apparently it hadn't been manifested to the people yet or Jesus and John wouldn't have claimed it "was at hand"

No sis. Paul is describing a transformed bodily resurrection from the grave like the one Jesus experienced.

I disagree. But I understand this is a major subject. I'll take the 5th before I open a whole can of worms here for some. Maybe another day and topic.

Well my friend, we have a big problem if outside the New Jerusalem there are dogs etc., because the Prophets have said the entire earth will be filled with the knowledge of God and be at peace. No way that could be if there were sorcerers running around outside. Also, gentile believers enter into the promises God first made with the Jews. Jesus' "church" will include Abraham, Isaac, etc.

Well, outside the gates of the spiritual city, the scripture says there are sinners that aren't saved. So I think it is your interpretation that has a problem.
Rev21:
The Glory of the New Jerusalem

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j] for the glory[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved[l] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[m] 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.[n] 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[o] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life.

This is prophetic and symbolic of the Church universal. Jesus is not literally a "Lamb!" Not now, not then, not later!

JLB777 · May 23, 2013

Rev21:
The Glory of the New Jerusalem

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j] for the glory[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved[l] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[m] 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.[n] 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[o] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lambs Book of Life.

This is prophetic and symbolic of the Church universal. Jesus is not literally a "Lamb!" Not now, not then, not later!

This has not taken place yet.

Because Jesus is referred to as the Lamb, doesn't mean this whole passage is all symbolic.

... for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

I thought the Church was God's temple, this is pointing to a future time.

JLB

coraline · May 23, 2013

JLB777 said:
This has not taken place yet.

Because Jesus is referred to as the Lamb, doesn't mean this whole passage is all symbolic.

... for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

I thought the Church was God's temple, this is pointing to a future time.

JLB

1Cor.3:
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

The church is the New Jerusalem. The kingdom of God is now in us as Jesus says. God dwells in this bodily temple and not a temple made with hands. We, Christ’s bride, are that city. We are not the harlot or adulteress wife, the literal Jerusalem. We are the beautiful, clothed with the garments of salvation, without spot, without wrinkle, bride of Christ. We are the saved. We are the Church. We are the New Jerusalem.

JLB777 · May 24, 2013

coraline said:
Maybe you misunderstand what and when the "regeneration" is!
Did you get born again and "put on the new man?"
So, my answer is YES, the gentiles too were going to be saved. Israel was going to have a major Spiritual awakening and covenant change through their Messiah, but the gentiles were going to be grafted in. God showed this to Peter in Acts 10.
Paul describes this regeneration in Col.3 5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

You also said this:
I disagree with that. The Kingdom of God is within you, and the New Jerusalem is the church universal.
And regarding the New Jerusalem, the things of God are spiritual in essence and not material. God is not concerned with literal pearls and gold. But for our finite minds, He gives us something to relate to. God gives us the symbolic description of the New Jerusalem.
Like the prophets said, its walls are salvation and its gates are praise.
"Citizenship in the kingdom of God?"
Paul says our "citizenship is in heaven" We are temples of the living God through the Spirit if we are Christ's. The kingdom of God is within us. It is spiritual then and not a literal kingdom, like the Pharisees asked Jesus "when the kingdom of God would come."
Of course it is. There was a reason Jesus spoke in parables to the Jews.See Matthew 13:10: And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" Study it a little more and see that 2/3 of Israel was predestined by God in that generation to be destroyed. (Romans 9-11; Zech.13; Isa.2-4; Isa.65-66)
Read it again please. Jesus wasn't "testing" anyone. He granted her a miracle bc she showed her faith!
The "end of the age" is what you are referring to as "the end of the material world as we know it." (see Matthew 24: 1-3. Note: the KJV is in error to use the word 'world' Every other version corrects this)
That passage doesn't illuminate the synagogue of Satan Jews as much as this one , for example: John 8:
Abrahams Seed and Satans

37 I know that you are Abrahams descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.
39 They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father.
Jesus said to them, If you were Abrahams children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.
Then they said to Him, We were not born of fornication; we have one FatherGod.
42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears Gods words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.
You cited Mt.5:5 and said the why are devil's people would be rooted out of the world... bc God's ppl are going to "inherit the earth"
Mt.5:5 says "the meek will inherit the earth" And the Sermon was Jesus' teachings for His church and within the church today. Are you meek? Study what "humility" means as opposed to being proud in the books of Timothy.
Apparently it hadn't been manifested to the people yet or Jesus and John wouldn't have claimed it "was at hand"

I disagree. But I understand this is a major subject. I'll take the 5th before I open a whole can of worms here for some. Maybe another day and topic.
Well, outside the gates of the spiritual city, the scripture says there are sinners that aren't saved. So I think it is your interpretation that has a problem.
Rev21:
The Glory of the New Jerusalem

22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j] for the glory[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved[l] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[m] 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.[n] 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[o] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lambs Book of Life.

This is prophetic and symbolic of the Church universal. Jesus is not literally a "Lamb!" Not now, not then, not later!

coraline said:
1Cor.3:
16 Do you not know that you are the temple of God and that the Spirit of God dwells in you? 17 If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which temple you are.

The church is the New Jerusalem. The kingdom of God is now in us as Jesus says. God dwells in this bodily temple and not a temple made with hands. We, Christs bride, are that city. We are not the harlot or adulteress wife, the literal Jerusalem. We are the beautiful, clothed with the garments of salvation, without spot, without wrinkle, bride of Christ. We are the saved. We are the Church. We are the New Jerusalem.

Paul says that we are the Temple of God.

When that Day comes, as John stated, the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb will be our Temple!

That Day has not come!

That Day is what we are looking forward to.

Please tell me you can read.

It clearly states in Revelation 21:22 -

But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

You are mixing together two different scriptures that say two different things, and expecting people to believe they are the same thing.

JLB

jdbear · May 24, 2013

coraline said,
Maybe you misunderstand what and when the "regeneration" is!
Did you get born again and "put on the new man?"
So, my answer is YES, the gentiles too were going to be saved. Israel was going to have a major Spiritual awakening and covenant change through their Messiah, but the gentiles were going to be grafted in. God showed this to Peter in Acts 10.

The regeneration I was thinking of is future.
" And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Mt.19:28
The regeneration Jesus spoke of here doesn't mean being born again. The Apostles weren't sitting on thrones then and they're still not, so you've misunderstood what regeneration means. If you want to keep applying it only in a spiritual sense, knock yourself out.

coraline said,
Paul describes this regeneration in Col.3 5 Therefore put to death your members which are on the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 Because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience, 7 in which you yourselves once walked when you lived in them.8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

This isn't the regeneration I was referring to. If you're going to say the regeneration only has a spiritual application, then there will be no Israel, because the passage you just cited says in Christ there are no Jews. This isn't what Paul meant.
" And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men, knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance, for ye serve the Lord Christ. But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons." Col.3:23-24
Paul is teaching inheritance (position in the Kingdom) is based on what believers do in the present (now). He isn't teaching that Jews and gentiles won't exist in the Kingdom. He's teaching God will dole out inheritance based on service. With this in mind, it's possible those who are Jews now will be considered gentiles in the Kingdom and those who are gentiles now will later be counted as Jews:
"And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel. And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord God." Eze.47:22-23

coraline said,
I disagree with that. The Kingdom of God is within you, and the New Jerusalem is the church universal.

When Jesus said the Kingdom of God is within you, He was speaking to the Pharisees, so He didn't mean it was inside them, because they didn't believe in Him. He meant it was among them, there for them to take if they wanted it.

coraline said,
And regarding the New Jerusalem, the things of God are spiritual in essence and not material. God is not concerned with literal pearls and gold. But for our finite minds, He gives us something to relate to. God gives us the symbolic description of the New Jerusalem.
Like the prophets said, its walls are salvation and its gates are praise.

The point is, spirtual things have an appearance. God looks like something. So do angels. So does everything. In the resurrection, the spiritual will have a physical manifestation. What people have sown is going to be visible.

coralline said,
"Citizenship in the kingdom of God?"
Paul says our "citizenship is in heaven" We are temples of the living God through the Spirit if we are Christ's. The kingdom of God is within us. It is spiritual then and not a literal kingdom, like the Pharisees asked Jesus "when the kingdom of God would come."

When Jesus told them it was here already, He meant it was being sown now, the same way He planted His own life. Jesus was raised according to how He lived and this principle applies to everyone:
"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." 1 Jn.3:2

coraline said,
Of course it is. There was a reason Jesus spoke in parables to the Jews.See Matthew 13:10: And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do You speak to them in parables?" Study it a little more and see that 2/3 of Israel was predestined by God in that generation to be destroyed. (Romans 9-11; Zech.13; Isa.2-4; Isa.65-66)

Speaking in parables isn't the point. The point is this:
" The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." Mt.13:41-42
You're spiritualizing this future prophecy into something that happened in the 1st century. You're wrong.

coraline said,
Read it again please. Jesus wasn't "testing" anyone. He granted her a miracle bc she showed her faith!

When Jesus woke up that day, He knew He was going to have an encounter with the Samaritan woman. If He truly meant that He was only sent to the Jews, He wouldn't have bothered with her. It's obvious He was testing her faith, because there are other gentiles that Jesus interacted with:
" And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him..." Mt.8:5
"There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink." Jn.4:7
So, your're misunderstanding Jesus words that He was only sent to the Jews.

coraline said,
The "end of the age" is what you are referring to as "the end of the material world as we know it." (see Matthew 24: 1-3. Note: the KJV is in error to use the word 'world' Every other version corrects this)

It doesn't matter whether you use world or age. The description of what is taking place is what matters. The point is, believers are gathered to Christ and unbelievers are thrown into the fire. This prophecy hasn't happened yet. It's future, not past.

coraline said,
That passage doesn't illuminate the synagogue of Satan Jews as much as this one , for example: John 8:
Abrahams Seed and Satans
37 I know that you are Abrahams descendants, but you seek to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. 38 I speak what I have seen with My Father, and you do what you have seen with[l] your father.
39 They answered and said to Him, Abraham is our father.
Jesus said to them, If you were Abrahams children, you would do the works of Abraham. 40 But now you seek to kill Me, a Man who has told you the truth which I heard from God. Abraham did not do this. 41 You do the deeds of your father.
Then they said to Him, We were not born of fornication; we have one FatherGod.
42 Jesus said to them, If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it. 45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe Me. 46 Which of you convicts Me of sin? And if I tell the truth, why do you not believe Me? 47 He who is of God hears Gods words; therefore you do not hear, because you are not of God.

I understand that unbelievers are the devils kids. This has nothing to do with the text you originally cited. The point is, you're applying Jesus words "a kingdom divided won't stand" incorrectly, because Satan isn't divided against himself. Jesus is divided against Satan and that's why demons were cast out of people. The Pharisees accused Him of casting demon out of people by Satans power. Satans kingdom isn't going to fall because Satan destroys it. The devils kingdom is going to fall because Jesus destroys it.

coraline said,
You cited Mt.5:5 and said the why are devil's people would be rooted out of the world... bc God's ppl are going to "inherit the earth"

I said the devils people would be rooted out and cited Mt.13. I then cited Mt.5 to show why the devils people are rooted out.

coraline said,
Mt.5:5 says "the meek will inherit the earth" And the Sermon was Jesus' teachings for His church and within the church today. Are you meek? Study what "humility" means as opposed to being proud in the books of Timothy.

I know the difference between humility and pride. The point is, Gods people are going to inherit the earth, which the proud will be rooted out of. The proud will be rooted out of the earth, because the earth is the Kingdom of God. We're not going anywhere. The wicked are.

coraline said,
Apparently it hadn't been manifested to the people yet or Jesus and John wouldn't have claimed it "was at hand"

That's right. It isn't manifested yet. It isn't apparent to people. People are unaware that what they do now will later be manifested for eternity.
"... that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die...So also is the resurrection of the dead...It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body..1 Cor.15:36,42,44.
You're not going to be just a spirit. Youre going to a spirit with a body, so plant good things.

coraline said,
Well, outside the gates of the spiritual city, the scripture says there are sinners that aren't saved. So I think it is your interpretation that has a problem.

I pointed out a paradox to you which can't be explained by your thinking. If there are sinners that aren't saved outside the of the spiritual city, it can only mean they are outside the city now, not in the future when the city is manifested, because at that point, the unsaved are in the lake of fire.

coraline said,
Rev21:
The Glory of the New Jerusalem
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it,[j] for the glory[k] of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. 24 And the nations of those who are saved[l] shall walk in its light, and the kings of the earth bring their glory and honor into it.[m] 25 Its gates shall not be shut at all by day (there shall be no night there). 26 And they shall bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.[n] 27 But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes[o] an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lambs Book of Life.
This is prophetic and symbolic of the Church universal. Jesus is not literally a "Lamb!" Not now, not then, not later!

This is one of the passages which started me thinking about whether other nations besides Israel will exist on earth after our Lords return, after He destroys the wicked. Will those "who are written in the Lambs Book of Life", the "nations of those who are saved", include people who live on a new earth outside of the Holy City?

coraline · May 24, 2013

JLB777 said:
Paul says that we are the Temple of God.

When that Day comes, as John stated, the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb will be our Temple!

That Day has not come!

That Day is what we are looking forward to.

Please tell me you can read.

It clearly states in Revelation 21:22 -

But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.

You are mixing together two different scriptures that say two different things, and expecting people to believe they are the same thing.

JLB

It's called proper Biblical hermeneutics and exegesis- comparing scripture with scripture for interpretation of scripture!
Zechariah 13:1 ... In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
Zechariah 13:7 says "... smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered". There again this passage of Zechariah 13 is all concerning the same time frame. When Christ died and the Shepherd was smitten.
John 4:13-14 ... 13) Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 14) But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
This makes it plain. When Christ came He gave us salvation and water for the heart. Why can we see the symbolic language of Christ here but many times people cannot see the similar symbolic language of Revelation? There is no crying or weeping, or death, or thirsting, or hungering now. We are no longer under the bondage of the law. Christ has set us free!
Isaiah 12:3 ... Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.
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Revelation 21:7 ... He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
When did we become the sons of God? When Christ came and we became joint heirs with Him. We are now the sons of God if we are saved.
I John 3:1-2 ... 1) Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 2) Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Romans 8:14 ... For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
John 1:12 ... But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Galatians 4:5-7 ... 5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. 6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. 7) Wherefore thou are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.
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Revelation 21:8 ... But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Anyone that is a liar, whoremonger, etc. cannot enter into the kingdom of God. None of these can be a part of the church or be in the New Jerusalem.
Ephesians 5:5 ... For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
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Revelation 21:9-10 ... 9) And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lambs wife. 10) And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
We read here that the angel tells John that He will show him the bride, the Lambs wife. He then proceeds to show him the New Jerusalem. Who is the Lambs wife? The church.
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Revelation 21:11 ... Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
The New Jerusalem has the glory of God and her light is like unto a stone most precious. We can read on in Revelation 21:23 and see that the, "Lamb is the light thereof", of the New Jerusalem. Notice these passages concerning Christ as a stone most precious.
I Peter 2:4-5 ... 4) To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious, 5) Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Isaiah 28:16 ... Therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Zechariah 3:9 ... For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
We know from Revelation 5:6 that Jesus is the one with seven eyes. He is the one spoken of in Zechariah 3:9 ... "upon one stone shall be seven eyes". Notice also in the passage that the Lord says that He will "remove the iniquity of that land in one day". What day is that one day? That day is the day of the cross, when the chief cornerstone was laid.
Matthew 21:42-44 ... 42) Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lords doing, and it is marvelous in our eyes? 43) Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof, 44) and whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
This passage in Matthew is spoken concerning Christ and how the Jews rejected Him but that He has become the head of the corner. Whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken.
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Revelation 21:12-13 ... 12) And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13) On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
We can read about the literal gates set up of the children of Israel in Ezekiel 48. The gates described here are not literal gates, but gates of praise.
Isaiah 26:1-2 ... 1) In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks. 2) Open ye the gates, that the righteous nation which keepeth the truth may enter in.
Isaiah 60:18 ... Violence shall no more be heard in thy land, wasting nor destruction within thy borders; but thou shall call thy walls Salvation, and thy gates Praise.
Zechariah 2:5 ... For I, saith the Lord, will be unto her a wall of fire round about, and will be the glory in the midst of her.
We can read Isaiah 60:1-3 and know that this is the time of Christs first coming. The rest of the chapter also pertains to the same time period.
Isaiah 60:3 ... And the Gentiles shall come to thy light, and kings to the brightness of thy rising.
When did this happen? The gentiles were grafted in by Christ at His first coming.
Romans 11:17 ... And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
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Revelation 21:14-21 ... 14) And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. 15) And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof. 16) And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal. 17) And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel. 18) And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19) And the foundations of the all of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, and chalcedony; the fourth, san emerald; 20) The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst. 21) And the twelve gates were twelve pearls; every several gate was of one pearl: and the street of the city was pure gold, as it were transparent glass.
The city lieth foursquare. The foundations were of all manner of precious stones. Compare this information to Exodus 27 about the priests breastplate. We need to also look into Isaiah.
Isaiah 54:10-12 ... 10) For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the Lord that hath mercy on thee. 11) O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires. 12) And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.
There again this all happens through salvation by Jesus Christ. As we read earlier we have walls of salvation. When was the covenant of peace made? When Christ died on the cross. The new covenant was established.
Ephesians 2:19-22 ... 19) Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20) And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21) In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22) In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Notice in Ephesians 2:20 ... that we are now built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets and that Jesus Christ himself is the chief corner stone. This is what is said in revelation 21:14 of the foundation of the New Jerusalem. The names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb are in the foundation walls. We are now as the church built together for a habitation of God through the Spirit.
(Excerpt from the New Jerusalem by Thracia Gharst)

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