A Short History of the Doctrine of a Rapture before the Great Tribulation

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Many object to the doctrine of the rapture being before the tribulation on the grounds that this is a relatively new doctrine, one that was never taught before 1830. They claim that this proves it cannot be correct. But this is error, for a rapture before the great tribulation has been taught throughout church history. (The great tribulation is the last half of Daniel’s seventieth week.)

The very oldest commentary on Bible prophecy of any significant length that has survived to the present day is the last ten chapters of the famous work by Irenaeus, titled “Against Heresies.” This it thought to have been written between 186 and 188 AD. (There were older Christian comments on Bible prophecy, but all of them that have survived to the present day are short.) Irenaeus wrote of the evil of the nations in general, and then said, "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption'" (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, Chapter XXIX, section 2.)

We need to notice the following elements in this short statement:

First, the church will be "suddenly caught up." This is an obvious reference to the rapture. Second, after the church is "suddenly caught up," "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." Lest anyone claim that this is not specifically stated to be after “the church is "suddenly caught up," please note that the grammatical construction (when) -- (one event takes place) -- (a second event takes place) has two possible meanings. It either means that the two events will take place at the same time or it means that the second event will take place after the first event. But it cannot mean that the second event takes place before the first event. In this case the first event is clearly instantaneous and the second event will obviously consume a significant period of time. So it is unreasonable to argue that the writer’s intention was anything other than to state that this “tribulation” would take place after the church is “suddenly caught up.”

So this statement clearly teaches that the rapture will occur before the great tribulation. But Irenaeus also had the church suffering under persecution from the Antichrist. So his position was what would today be called a mid-tribulation rapture.

Next we come to a late third century commentary on the Revelation, which said concerning Revelation 14:6, “‘And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.’”] For the heaven to be rolled away, that is, that the Church shall be taken away.” Then, concerning Revelation 15:1, it said “‘And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.’] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”

(“Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John,” by Victorinus.) The date this was written is unknown, but Victorinus is thought to have flourished around 270 AD, and to have died in 303 AD.

These statements are plainly pre-tribulational. For he foresaw the church “taken away” long before the time of the Antichrist in Revelation 13, and he explicitly mentioned that “the Church shall have gone out of the midst” during the seven last plagues of Revelation 15.

Again, the following statement by John of Crysostem is evidence of the pre-tribulation rapture having been taught in early Christian centuries.

“2 Thessalonians ii. 6–9
“‘And now ye know that which restraineth, to the end that he may be revealed in his own season. For the mystery of lawlessness doth already work: only there is one that restraineth now, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall be revealed the lawless one, whom the Lord Jesus shall slay with the breath of His mouth, and bring to nought by the manifestation of His coming: even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan.’
“One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholdeth, that is, hindereth him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him.” (Homilies on 2 Thessalonians, Homily IV, by John Chrysostom. This is thought to have been written sometime between the years 395 and 407.)

[from Volume XIII of “Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers,” series 2, as translated by James Tweed and edited by Philip Schaff, as found in the American edition edited by Phillip Schaff , and as found online at http://www.ccel.org.]

Although it is strangely stated, this appears to be a saying that some in the day of John of Crysostom were saying that the restrainer of 2 Thessalonians 2:6 is the Holy Spirit. As this is one of the key elements of the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture, this appears to be evidence that some were teaching this doctrine around the beginning of the fifth century. This is all the more important historically, because the man who mentioned it did not himself believe it.

But in addition to these critically important comments from the early centuries of the church, there is a document whose age and author is unknown, but which is known to have been in Church libraries before the year 800. One of the surviving copies of this document say its author was Isidore of Seville, (Who is believed to have lived from 560 to 636.) but all the rest say it was written by Ephraem. Based on events referred to in this document as impending, various scholars have estimated its date from as early as 373 to as late as 627. (The latest of these possible dates, along with the time of Isidore of Seville, would classify the date of this document as early medieval.) As scholars do not believe the unknown author could have been the famous Ephraem the Syrian, (who is also known as Ephraem of Nisbis) they call this unknown author Pseudo-Ephraem. This document says:

“Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” author unknown but called Pseudo-Ephraem, section 2.)

[From “The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition,” by Paul J. Alexander, Berkeley: University of California Press, 1985, 2.10. Cited there from “Abhandlungen und Predigten aus den zwei letzten Jahrhunderten des kirchlichen Altertums und dem Anfang des Mittelaters,” C. P. Caspari, ed. Briefe, Christiania, 1890, 208-20. As found online at On the Last Times, the Anti-Christ, andthe End of the World. This included a Latin text of the pseudo-Ephraem document prepared from four ancient manuscripts. ]

Moving now to late medieval times, an anonymously written history of a fourteenth century leader of a sect called the Apostolic Brethren, who called himself “Brother Dolcino,”said of him:

“Again, [Dolcino believed and preached and taught] that within those three years Dolcino himself and his followers will preach the coming of the Antichrist. And that the Antichrist was coming into this world within the bounds of the said three and a half years; and after he had come, then he [Dolcino] and his followers would be transferred into Paradise, in which are Enoch and Elijah. And in this way they will be preserved unharmed from the persecution of Antichrist. And that then Enoch and Elijah themselves would descend on the earth for the purpose of preaching [against] Antichrist.” (“Historia Fratris Dulcini,” anonymous, 1316, as found in Codice Ambrosiano-H. 80, and as translated from the Latin by Francis X. Gumerlock in “Before Darby,” p. 3.)
Note: This was was edited in 1551 and was utilized in the 1600’s in several other ecclesiastical histories of the area of Vercelli and Novara. The date of 1316 is confirmed in R. Kestenberg-Gladstein, “The Third Reich: A Fifteenth-Century Polemic Against Joachism, and Its Background” in Delno West, ed., Joachim of Fiore in Christian Thought, Vol 2 (New York: Burt Franklin & Co., 1975), 599, no. 49. Eugenio Anagnine describes the Historia as a “opera stesa probabilmente da un contemporaneo di Biella (1304-7).” See Eugenio Anagnine, Dolcino (Firenze: La Nuova Italia, 1964), p. 1.)

This can be read online at:
http://francisgumerlock.com/wp-cont...apture Citation in the Fourteenth Century.pdf

So this record says that Brother Dolcino taught a rapture after the beginning of the time of Antichrist, but before its end. This again appears to be a position that would today be called mid tribulation rapture, but would certainly qualify as a rapture before the great tribulation.
 

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Moving now to the period commonly called “the enlightenment,” Joseph Mede wrote in 1672:

"I will add this more, namely, what may be conceived to be the cause of this rapture of the saints on high to meet the Lord in the clouds, rather than to wait his coming to earth....What if it be, that they may be preserved during the Conflagration of the earth and the works thereof, 2 Pet.3:10, that as Noah and his family were preserved from the Deluge by being lift up above the waters in the Ark; so should the saints at the Conflagration be lift up in the clouds unto their Ark, Christ, to be preserved there from the deluge of fire, wherein the wicked shall be consumed?" ("The Works of Joseph Mede," 1672, London edition, Book IV, p.776)

Notice That Mede used the word "rapture" and cited 1 Thess.4, the analogy of Noah, and proposed that ite purpose might be that the saints “may be preserved during the Conflagration of the earth and the works thereof.” This is clearly a proposal of at least the possibility of a pre-tribulation rapture.

Moving on now to the time of the industrial revolution:

In 1748 the famous Baptist theologian Dr. John Gill wrote:

“1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up;
suddenly, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, and with force and power; by the power of Christ, and by the ministry and means of the holy angels; and to which rapture will contribute, the agility which the bodies both of the raised and changed saints will have: and this rapture of the living saints will be
“together with them;
with the dead in Christ, that will then be raised; so that the one will not come before the other, or the one be sooner with Christ than the other; but the one being raised and the other changed, they will be joined in one company and general assembly, and be caught up together:
“in the clouds;
the same clouds perhaps in which Christ will come, will be let down to take them up; these will be the chariots, in which they will be carried up to him; and thus, as at our Lord's ascension a cloud received him, and in it he was carried up out of the sight of men, so at this time will all the saints ride up in the clouds of heaven:
“to meet the Lord in the air;
whither he will descend, and will then clear the regions of the air of Satan, and his posse of devils, which now rove about there, watching all opportunities, and taking all advantages to do mischief on earth; these shall then fall like lightning from heaven, and be bound and shut up in the bottomless pit, till the thousand years are ended: here Christ will stop, and will be visible to all, and as easily discerned by all, good and bad, as the body of the sun at noonday; as yet he will not descend on earth, because it is not fit to receive him; but when that and its works are burnt up, and it is purged and purified by fire, and become a new earth, he will descend upon it, and dwell with his saints in it: and this suggests another reason why he will stay in the air, and his saints shall meet him there, and whom he will take up with him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over, and to preserve them from it; and then shall all the elect of God descend from heaven as a bride adorned for her husband, and he with them, and the tabernacle of God shall be with men; see ( Revelation 21:1-3 ) ...
“and so shall we ever be with the Lord;
now the saints are with him at times, and have communion with him, but not always; but then they shall be ever with him; wherever he is; first in the air, where they shall meet him; then in the third heaven, where they shall go up with him; then on earth, where they shall descend and reign with him a thousand years; and then in the ultimate glory to all eternity: and this will be the issue and accomplishment of the counsel and covenant of grace, of the sufferings and death of Christ, and of his preparations and prayers.”

This can be read online at:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 Commentary - John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

So Dr. John Gill explicitly called the Lord’s coming for his own the “rapture,” and explicitly said it would occur “suddenly,” and that the Lord “will stay in the air, and his saints shall meet him there, and whom he will take up with him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over.” There is no way to represent this as anything but a pre-tribulation rapture.

And in 1788 Morgan Edwards (the founder of Brown University) published the following:

"The distance between the first and second resurrection will be somewhat more than a thousand years.
“I say, somewhat more—, because the dead saints will be raised, and the living changed at Christ's 'appearing in the air' (I Thes. iv. 17); and this will be about three years and a half before the millennium, as we shall see hereafter: but will he and they abide in the air all that time? No: they will ascend to paradise, or to some one of those many 'mansions in the father's house' (John xiv. 2), and so disappear during the foresaid period of time. The design of this retreat and disappearing will be to judge the risen and changed saints; for 'now the time is come that judgment must begin,' and that will be 'at the house of God' (I Pet. iv. 17)..." (“Two Academical Exercises on Subjects Bearing the following Titles; Millennium, Last-Novelties,” by Morgan Edwards, pg. 7, Philadelphia: self-published, 1788 - spelling modernized.)

This can be read online at:
Who's Who of Prophecy

This is again a position of a mid tribulation rapture, and clearly before the great tribulation.

There are two others that actually lived during J. N. Darby’s life, but published pre tribulation statements significantly earlier than 1830. The first of these is James H. Frere, who wrote in 1815:

"...the sitting of the Ancient of Days is mentioned in the 9th verse of the seventh chapter of Daniel, and precedes the death and destruction of the ten-horned Beast... The sitting of the Ancient of Days and the judgment of the saints mentioned in Daniel, must therefore considerably precede the sitting of the saints in judgment at the commencement of the Millennium...and must be cotemporary with a period in the Revelation of Saint John, prior to that of the battle of Armageddon...” (James H. Fere, A Combined View of the Prophecies, London: 1815)

So James H. Frere had the saints in heaven “considerably” before “the commencement of the millennium,” and “prior to the battle of Armageddon.” And He published this fifteen years before Darby’s first article on the timing of the rapture.

Again, William Cuninghame, who wrote in 1817, said:

“A question will here naturally suggest itself to the mind of the reader. What is to become of the righteous in the awful period described in the foregoing prophecies? Now, the answer to this inquiry has been given, in considering the seventh chapter of the Apocalypse...This tribulation is manifestly that of the closing period of the earthquake and vials; and we are thus assured, that the righteous are to be preserved during the final display of divine wrath...a call is given to the righteous to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb...These considerations ought surely to awaken the Christian to pray more earnestly for his country, and to quicken his diligence, that he may individually be accounted worthy to ESCAPE the approaching wrath, and to stand before the Son of Man...Our Lord Himself has emphatically assured us, 'behold I come as a thief...' from these words we may certainly conclude, that He will come at a time, when few even of his own people expect it..." (William Cuninghame. A Dissertation on the Seals and Trumpets of the Apocalypse,"1817 ed., pp.334-354)

In a later version of this same book, he added, perhaps influenced by Darby, that:

"There is a double gathering of his saints unto our Lord, during his abode in the air; first of the 144,000 sealed ones, and secondly, the white-robed palm-bearers (Rev.vii.9-17). The former is at the first moment of the Advent, and the last at a later period...There are two events selected by our Lord himself, as the special types of His Advent, and the state of the world in that day...it is manifest that the Coming of the Lord is to find the world in a state of peace...the ten virgins...are all...found slumbering and sleeping...as soon as the Lord comes and takes to himself the Wise Virgins, the torrent of calamity which is to destroy the prophetic earth shall immediately thereafter break forth...But I remark that there is another class of passages, which no less certainly indicates that his coming shall be in a season of shaking and alarm and fear..." (date and page number not known)

So, although Darby’s teaching may have influenced his later teaching, he clearly had some version of an imminent pre-tribulation rapture at least 13 years before 1830.

This is not a complete list of all the pre-Darby teachers of a rapture taking place at least before the great tribulation. But it is enough to conclusively prove that this doctrine has indeed been taught throughout the history of the church. We have seen it in truly ancient times, in early and late medieval times, in the times of the enlightenment and the industrial revolution, and even in the 1800's well before Darby began to teach it.
 
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Biblewriter

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Finally, we need to address a completely false claim about the history of this doctrine. And that is the charge that Darby got it from a demonically inspired vision allegedly seen in 1830 by a young Scotch woman named Margaret MacDonald. (That is the origin of the claim that the doctrine was never taught before 1830.) But if Darby had paid any attention whatsoever to information coming from such a source he would have been violating his most basic principles. For he insisted that “There can be no new truth, which would not be found in the word.” Also saying “The Scriptures are the only rule or standard of faith and practice.” (“The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., William Kelly, ed., London, G. Morrish, edition not dated. The first quotation is from Vol 1, pg 350. The second is from Vol 3, pg 98.) These are not just exceptional statements of this very prolific writer, but basic principles that he consistently applied. It is indeed possible that Darby heard about the alleged vision and that set him to thinking on the subject, but we have already seen that there were two current theological works that suggested the same idea, so Darby’s thoughts could just as easily have been triggered by either of them.

There is absolutely no evidence that Darby even knew about Margaret MacDonald’s alleged vision. Some years ago Dave MacPherson capitalized on this lack of evidence with a book titled “The Incredible Cover-up.” In this book MacPherson added to the falsehood of the original accusation by claiming that Darby had covered up his contact with Margaret MacDonald. He devoted the entire book to a newspaper-like exposé to prove Darby had in fact visited Margaret MacDonald’s church.

But MacPherson’s accusation of a cover-up was completely and manifestly false. Darby not only did not cover up his visit there, but openly wrote about it. He called this group the “Irvingites” because their founder and main teacher was a man named Edward Irving. The following account is rather long, but is reproduced here to clearly demonstrate the falsehood of the claim that Darby covered up this visit. In the article, Darby referred to himself as the “Irish Clergyman” because he had been called that in the article he was answering. Notice that this account specifically mentions “Two brothers (respectable shipbuilders at port Glasgow, of the name of M’D – ), and their sister” as chief speakers at the meetings he attended. So he not only wrote about his visit to Margaret MacDonald’s church, but specifically mentioned her as a speaker at these meetings.

“But I must here (without any reproach to Mr. N., as it is a matter of memory) recall some facts, and rectify some statements. At Pentecost the languages were universally understood by those who spoke them; the Irvingite tongues never by any one: a notable difference. And this is so true, that after first trying their hand of making Chinese of it. It was suggested among them that it might be the tongue of angels, as it was said, “If I speak with the tongues of men and angels” – delightful idea!
“Mr. N. is quite exact in his account of the report of the “Irish Clergyman,” or at least of what the “Irish Clergyman” saw and heard. There was a pretended interpretation. Two brothers (respectable shipbuilders at port Glasgow, of the name of M’D – ), and their sister, were the chief persons who spoke, with a Gaelic maid-servant, in the tongues, and a Mrs. J. – , in English. J. M’D – spoke, on the occasion alluded to, for about a quarter of an hour, with great energy and fluency, in a semi-latin sounding speech – then sung a hymn in the same. Having finished, he knelt down and prayed there might be an interpretation; as God had given one gift, that He would add the other. His sister got up at the opposite side of the room, and professed to give the interpretation; but it was a string of texts on overcoming, and no hymn, and one, if not more, of the texts was quoted wrongly. Just afterwards there was a bustle; and apparently some one was unwell and went into the next room; and the gifted English-speaking person, with utterances from the highest pitch of voice to the lowest murmur, with all strange prolongation of tones, spoke through (if one may so express oneself, as if passing through) the agony of Christ. Once the Gaelic servant spoke briefly in “a tongue;” not, if the “Irish Clergyman” remembers right, the same evening. The sense he had of the want of the power of the Holy Ghost in the church made him willing to hear and see. Yet he went rather as deputed for others than for himself.
“The excitement was great, so that, though not particularly an excitable person, he felt its effects very strongly. It did not certainly approve itself to his judgement; other things contributed to form it. It was too much of a scene. Previous to the time of exercising the gifts, they read, sung psalms, and prayed, under certain persons’ providence (one of them a very estimable person, who has since seen free from all this, and a minister of an independent or some dissenting church in Edinburgh, then a church-elder). This being finished, the “Irish Clergyman” was going away, when another said to him, “Don’t go: the best part is probably to come yet.” So he stayed, and heard what has just been related. He was courteously admitted, as one not believing, who came to see what was the real truth of the case. The parties are mostly dead, or dispersed, and many freed from the delusion, and the thing itself public; so that he does not feel that he is guilty of any indiscretion in giving a correct account of what passed.
“It may be added, without of course saying anything that could point out the persons, that female vanity, and very distinct worldliness, did not confirm, to his mind, the thought that it could be the Spirit’s power. The M’D – s were in ordinary life quiet, sober men, and, he believes, most blameless. Their names were so public that there is no indelicacy in alluding to them.” (“The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., Vol 6, pp 448-450, William Kelly, ed., London, G. Morrish, edition not dated.)

Further evidence against the accusation that Darby got this idea from Margaret MacDonald’s supposed vision is Darby’s opinion of her group as a whole. He wrote:

“The people called Irvingites have been plainly convicted elsewhere of so much false doctrine, false practice, and false prophecy, and that by many of the Church of God, as to make it, when known, a question only of preserving God’s children against the deceits and crafts of Satan... plainly wicked and evil, and contrary to God’s word and Spirit...” (“The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., Vol 15, pp 3-4, William Kelly, ed., London, G. Morrish, edition not dated.)

But it is not only the group that Darby condemned as Satanic, but their alleged prophetic visions. He further wrote that “It may not be generally known that the ‘gifts’ among the Irvingites were founded on this doctrine of Christ being a sinner in nature like ourselves. Mr. Irving’s statement was that he had long preached the ‘gifts,’ but there was nothing for the Holy Ghost to testify to; but when he preached this doctrine they came as a witness to it. His teaching moreover on the subject was confirmed by what was received as the prophetic power amongst them.”(“The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., Vol 6, pp 450-451, William Kelly, ed., London, G. Morrish, edition not dated.)
 
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Biblewriter

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Margaret MacDonald’s own notes of this alleged vision plainly show that, although it included a pre-tribulation rapture of some of the saints of God, this was only a partial rapture. (see “Memoirs of James & George Macdonald of Port-Glasgow,” by Robert Norton, pp. 171-176, 1840. see also “The Restoration of Apostles and Prophets; In the Catholic Apostolic Church,”by Robert Norton , pp 15-18, 1861.) The entire vision is also easily available on the internet. If Darby had been relying on any supposed authority behind this alleged vision, he would have made his rapture doctrine a similar partial rapture, instead of the universal rapture of all true believers in Christ which Darby taught, and which almost all believers in the doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture still teach today.

As MacPherson’s book circulated, the false accusations it contained morphed and grew, as rumors always do. Soon many began to claim that Margaret MacDonald was a member of Darby’s group, which was called the Plymouth brethren. The falsehood of this claim can easily be seen from the excerpts we have already examined. For we have seen that Darby visited the group (rather than being a member of it) and declared it to be Satanic in its origin.

Then these misguided individuals began to say things like the Plymouth Brethren were an occult sect fond of summoning dead spirits and having tremendous visions. While this was at least partly true of the Catholic Apostolic Church, it was totally false in regard to the Plymouth Brethren. In 1878, when asked to define the position of Plymouth Brethren, J. N. Darby began by writing, “I hold, and I can add that we firmly hold, all the foundations of the Christian faith – the divinity of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, one God, eternally blessed – the divinity and humanity of the Lord Jesus, two natures in one person – His resurrection and His glorification at the right hand of God – the presence of the Holy Ghost here below, having descended on the day of Pentecost – the return of the Lord Jesus according to His promise. We believe also that the Father in His love has sent the Son to accomplish the work of redemption and grace towards men – that the Son came, finished the work which the Father gave Him to do on earth. We believe that He has made propitiation for our sins, and that after having accomplished it, He ascended to heaven – the High Priest seated at the right hand of the Majesty on high.
“Other truths are connected with these, such as the miraculous birth of the Savior, who was absolutely without sin – and yet others; but, you will readily understand, sir, that my object is not to give a course of lectures or a theological summary, but to make it quite clear that it is in nowise on the giving up of the great foundations of the Christian faith that our position is based.”
(From “Letters of J. N. D.”, Vol 2, pg 513, second ed., London, G Morrish, 1914)

But not content with falsely claiming that Darby’s group, the Plymouth Brethren, was occultic, these malignant individuals next began to claim that this was the group of the noted Satanist Alister Crowley, and that they had even given him authority to preach. This is false on two counts. First, the Plymouth Brethren never give anyone authority to preach. They denounce this concept as unscriptural, saying the authority to preach comes from God, not from man. (see “Christian Liberty of Preaching and Teaching the Lord Jesus Christ,” J. N. Drby, “The Collected Writings of J. N. Darby” second ed., Vol 1, pp 104-122, William Kelly, ed., London, G. Morrish, edition not dated.)

But the second reason this accusation is false is far more to the point. Although Alister Crowley grew up in a Plymouth Brethren home, he rebelled against his Christian training at an early age and never joined the group. He discussed this rebellion in considerable detail in the fifth through the seventh chapters of his autobiography, “The Confessions of Alister Crowley.” This autobiography can be found on the internet, but it is needful to provide a warning that it is exceedingly wicked.
 
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Now I could definitely believe that the entirety of Darby's Dispensationalism was inspired by a demon possessed old hag. That would actually stand to reason as the only way to come up with such convoluted fluff would be to be in an almost paranatural ort of mind. So, yes.

I'm convinced that Aleister Crowley's entire adult 'magickal' clown show was simply a reaction to that revolting form of pseudo-Christianity he received as a child in England growing up amongst the Plymouth Brethren. If you read his autobiography (The Autohagiography, The Self-Justifying Biography in Crowley's own ridiculous terms), he speaks much of the social milieu of the times around the beginning of the 20th century growing up in the Plymouth Brethren. He claims that all they ever spoke of was the immanent rise of Antichrist and the Rapture. This is where Crowley's own delusions of actually becoming the Beast 666 came from. One cannot understand the dialectical antithesis of modern Thelema and Aleister Crowley without first understanding the dialectical thesis of the Plymouth Brethren. The Plymouth Brethren and its Rapturolatry is responsible for producing at least two of the biggest cult leaders and sociopaths the world has ever seen--Darby himself and Aleister Crowley who pranced around the world styling himself the Great Wild Beast of Revelation. I've read enough of what Spurgeon had to say on the group at the time to be convinced of that much.

It was Crowley who trained Gardner in the OTO in the 1940s who in turn started the mockery and sham that today is called the 'Old Religion' of Wicca. He got most of the rituals and even the Rede directly from Aleister Crowley. It also appears that main rituals of Wicca are nothing more than Crowley's mocking inversions of the Song of Solomon, whence come the ideas of the 'Stag Lord' and the 'Lady'. There would have been no Wicca, no Thelema and quite possibly no Church of Satan without Aleister Crowley. And there would have been no Aleister Crowley as TO MEGA THERION if it had not been for the lunacy he grew up in among the Plymouth Brethren. I just hope I never see any Dispensationalists complaining about today's modern witchcraft. They are directly responsible for it and don't even know it.

Here is the incident as Crowley relates it of a time when he thought the Rapture had occurred when he was a child and that he had been 'Left Behind'.
The universe was created by God 4004 B.C. The Bible, authorized version, was literally true, having been dictated by the Holy Ghost himself to scribes incapable of even clerical errors. King James' translators enjoyed an equal immunity. It was considered unusual— and therefore in doubtful taste—to appeal to the original texts. All other versions were regarded as inferior; the Revised Version in particular savoured of heresy. John Nelson Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, being a very famous biblical scholar, had been invited to sit on the committee and had refused on the ground that some of the other scholars were atheists.

The second coming of the Lord Jesus was confidently expected to occur at any moment. So imminent was it that preparations for a distant future—such as signing a lease or insuring one's life—might he held to imply lack of confidence of the promise, "Behold I come quickly."

A pathetically tragic incident—some years later—illustrates the reality of this absurdity. To modern educated people it must seem unthinkable that so fantastic a superstition could be such a hellish obsession in such recent times and such familiar places.

One fine summer morning, at Redhill, the boy—now eight or nine—got tired of playing by himself in the garden. He came back to the house. It was strangely still and he got frightened. By some odd chance everybody was either out or upstairs. But he jumped to the conclusion that "the Lord had come", and that he had been left behind". It was an understood thing that there was no hope for people in this position. Apart from the Second Advent, it was always possible to be saved up the very moment of death; but once the saints had been called up, the day of grace was finally over. Various alarums and excursions would take place as per the Apocalypse, and then would come the millennium, when Satan would be chained for a thousand years and Christ reign for that period over the Jews regathered in Jerusalem. The position of these Jews is not quite clear. They were not saved in the same sense as Christians had been, yet they were not damned. The millennium seems to have been thought of as a fulfilment of god's promise to Abraham; but apparently it had nothing to do with "eternal life". However, even this modified beatitude as not open to Gentiles who had rejected Christ.

The child was consequently very much relieved by the reappearance of some of the inmates of the house whom he could not imagine as having been lost eternally. -- The Confessions of Aleister Crowley, Chap. 1
 
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Bible2

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Biblewriter said in post 1:

Many object to the doctrine of the rapture being before the tribulation on the grounds that this is a relatively new doctrine, one that was never taught before 1830.

Whether or not a pre-tribulation rapture was taught before 1830 is irrelevant. All that matters is what the Bible itself teaches.

Biblewriter said in post 1:

Irenaeus wrote of the evil of the nations in general, and then said, "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, 'There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.'For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption'" (“Against Heresies,” by Irenaeus, Book V, Chapter XXIX, section 2.)

Instead of in section 2, what you quoted can appear at the end of section 1 of Against Heresies, Book V, Chapter XXIX. In what you quoted, even though Irenaeus (or maybe only the translator) uses the words from Matthew 24:21, Irenaeus (in the language of his original manuscript) may have actually quoted, or may have actually been thinking of, the differently timed (yet similar sounding) Daniel 12:1-3, which refers to the time of the resurrection of the church into immortality at the post-tribulation, second-coming time of the defeat of the Antichrist (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, compare 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

For Irenaeus connects his quoted "tribulation" reference to the time when "the righteous" will be "crowned with incorruption", that is, resurrected or changed into incorruptible/immortal bodies. And no people can be called "the righteous" (compare Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus and his sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no people who have that faith are outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And the people who will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into incorruptible/immortal bodies at Jesus' second coming (when he will defeat the Antichrist, the individual-man aspect of the beast: Revelation 19:20) will be the church (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

So in what you quoted, the "tribulation" referred to by Irenaeus could be only Daniel 11:45 to 12:3's post-tribulation, second-coming time of trouble which will come upon the Antichrist and the unsaved world at the second-coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which battle the church will be resurrected (if dead) or changed (if alive) into immortality (1 Corinthians 15:51-53) and then caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" (Revelation 3:5). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the unsaved armies of the world (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

Biblewriter said in post 1:

But Irenaeus also had the church suffering under persecution from the Antichrist. So his position was what would today be called a mid-tribulation rapture.

If that's your view, then why did you quote him in a thread purporting to show pre-trib teachings?

Biblewriter said in post 1:

Next we come to a late third century commentary on the Revelation, which said concerning Revelation 14:6, “‘And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.’”]

By "Revelation 14:6", didn't you mean Revelation 6:14 instead? If so, the 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) could be fulfilled in our future by a huge volcanic eruption (possibly of the Yellowstone Caldera) which will occur during only the first stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This eruption could begin with a large earthquake (Revelation 6:12), signaling the sudden rising of magma within the volcano. When it erupts, it could shoot so much ash and smoke into the sky that the sun will appear darkened and the moon blood-red (Revelation 6:12b), like happens during large forest fires. The volcano could also shoot blobs of red-hot magma into the sky, which as they fall back down could appear like falling stars (Revelation 6:13). And it could shoot so much super-heated ash and smoke so high and so quickly into the sky that they could form a gigantic mushroom cloud which will make the sky (the first heaven) look like a scroll being rolled up (Revelation 6:14). Earthquakes connected with the eruption could be so large that they set off a chain reaction of other earthquakes in nearby faults and volcanoes, which could set off even more earthquakes further away, and so on, so that earthquakes will end up affecting every mountain and island, moving each of their positions at least a little bit (Revelation 6:14b).

Biblewriter said in post 1:

Then, concerning Revelation 15:1, it said “‘And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.’] For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst.”

(“Commentary on the Apocalypse of the Blessed John,” by Victorinus.)

Nothing requires that, just as none of the "wrath" verses in Revelation chapters 15-16 require that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath. For they refer to only the tribulation's final stage, the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath, which could be the "last" plagues which "fill up" (complete) God's wrath (Revelation 15:1) in relation to the earlier plagues brought on the world by God's two witnesses (Revelation 11:6). And nothing requires that any of the plagues from God in Revelation 11:6 or Revelation 16 will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6).

Because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Biblewriter said in post 1:

These statements are plainly pre-tribulational.

A pre-Revelation 16 rapture isn't pre-tribulational, but what's referred to today as "pre-wrath", which is just as mistaken as pre-trib.

Revelation chapters 6 to 22 are chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 will begin with the events of the 2nd through 6th seals, occurring in the order shown in Revelation 6:3-14. After the events of the 6th seal, Revelation 7 will occur. Then the 7th seal will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-6). Then the events of the first 6 trumpets in Revelation 8:7 to Revelation 9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Revelation 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13).

Then the 7th trumpet will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Revelation 11:15). Out of the 7th trumpet's heavenly temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Revelation 16. Jesus will return right after the 7th vial (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), and he will marry the church at that time (Revelation 19:7). Then he will defeat the unsaved world (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3), and reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then the events of Revelation 20:7 to Revelation 22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

Biblewriter said in post 1:

“One may naturally enquire, what is that which withholdeth, and after that would know, why Paul expresses it so obscurely. What then is it that withholdeth, that is, hindereth him from being revealed? Some indeed say, the grace of the Spirit, but others the Roman empire, to whom I most of all accede. Wherefore? Because if he meant to say the Spirit, he would not have spoken obscurely, but plainly, that even now the grace of the Spirit, that is the gifts, withhold him.” (Homilies on 2 Thessalonians, Homily IV, by John Chrysostom. This is thought to have been written sometime between the years 395 and 407.)

[Emphasis added]

That means (as you pointed out subsequently) that Chrysostom didn't agree with those who (mistakenly) claimed that the restrainer was the Holy Spirit. And he was right in that regard.

The restrainer of the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:6-8) could be a powerful angel, like the one who will restrain Satan at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 20:1-3). The restrainer can't be the Holy Spirit, because in the future, the restrainer will be removed (2 Thessalonians 2:7b), whereas the Holy Spirit can never be removed because he's always omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-10). Similarly, the restrainer can't be the church, because the church won't be removed (John 17:15,20, Proverbs 10:30). Also, there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5), and now no one can be a believer without the Spirit (Romans 8:9); and the Antichrist will be allowed to physically overcome believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), just as the Roman emperors and Satan were allowed to physically overcome believers in the first century AD (e.g. Revelation 2:10).
 
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Biblewriter said in post 1:

“Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: ‘Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!’ For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.” (“On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World,” author unknown but called Pseudo-Ephraem, section 2.)

When the unknown writer of the document called "Pseudo Ephraem" says that "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation" (Section 2), he does not mean prior to the tribulation of Matthew 24. For that would contradict the scriptural teaching that the elect are gathered immediately "after the tribulation" of Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31). Also, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem mistakenly thought that the first half of Matthew 24's tribulation had already occurred by his time, and that all that was left to happen was the time of the Antichrist: "Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord [compare Matthew 24:6-7], they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [compare Matthew 24:15-22; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8]" (Section 2).

And the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that the church will have to go through that time of the Antichrist: "those who wander through the deserts, fleeing from the face of the serpent [compare Revelation 12:14], bend their knees to God, just as lambs to the udders of their mothers, being sustained by the salvation of the Lord, and while wandering in states of desertion, they eat herbs" (Section 8). There is no salvation apart from being a Christian (John 3:36, John 14:6, Acts 4:12), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). The writer of Pseudo Ephraem again in Section 9 shows that the church will have to go through the time of the Antichrist: "when this inevitability has overwhelmed all people, just and unjust, the just, so that they may be found good by their Lord". No one is just or found good (Romans 3:10) apart from faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrificial blood (Romans 3:25-26), and no one who has this faith is outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

And in Section 4, the writer of Pseudo Ephraem shows that some in the church will die during the time of the Antichrist: "In those days people shall not be buried, neither Christian, nor heretic, neither Jew, nor pagan, because of fear and dread there is not one who buries them; because all people, while they are fleeing, ignore them". So in the latter half of Section 2, when the writer of Pseudo Ephraem says "all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation", he does not mean prior to Matthew 24's tribulation. What he means is partially found in the first half of Section 2: "Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world". What the writer means by "the confusion" (and so also by "the tribulation") is explained in Section 10: "Then Christ shall come and the enemy shall be thrown into confusion, and the Lord shall destroy him by the spirit of his mouth".

So the writer of Pseudo Ephraem is referring to the confusion and destruction of the Antichrist and the unsaved world at the second-coming battle (Revelation 19:11-21, Revelation 16:14; 2 Thessalonians 2:8), just prior to which battle the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17) and to be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7).

Biblewriter said in post 1:

So this record says that Brother Dolcino taught a rapture after the beginning of the time of Antichrist, but before its end. This again appears to be a position that would today be called mid tribulation rapture, but would certainly qualify as a rapture before the great tribulation.

How can something be mid-trib but qualify as pre-trib?

*******

Biblewriter said in post 2:

"I will add this more, namely, what may be conceived to be the cause of this rapture of the saints on high to meet the Lord in the clouds, rather than to wait his coming to earth....What if it be, that they may be preserved during the Conflagration of the earth and the works thereof, 2 Pet.3:10, that as Noah and his family were preserved from the Deluge by being lift up above the waters in the Ark; so should the saints at the Conflagration be lift up in the clouds unto their Ark, Christ, to be preserved there from the deluge of fire, wherein the wicked shall be consumed?"
("The Works of Joseph Mede," 1672, London edition, Book IV, p.776)

2 Peter 3:10-13 doesn't even refer to the tribulation. For even though in the day of the Lord will occur the destruction of heaven (the first heaven: the sky, the atmosphere) and the earth (the surface of the earth) at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11, Revelation 21:1), and this will be followed by the creation of a new atmosphere and surface for the earth (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1) onto which New Jerusalem, the Father's house (John 14:2, Revelation 21:2-3), will descend from the third heaven (Revelation 21:2-3), the day of the Lord won't immediately bring the destruction of earth's atmosphere and surface. For the day of the Lord will begin at Jesus' second coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8) as a thief (2 Peter 3:10a, Revelation 16:15). And after his second coming, he will establish his kingdom physically on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 66:3-4, Psalms 72:8-11, Zechariah 14:3-21).

And after the thousand years, the Gog and Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39). And after its defeat, at least seven more years will occur (Ezekiel 39:9b), before the earth's atmosphere and surface are destroyed at the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11). All these events, from Jesus' second coming to the great white throne judgment, will be part of the day of the Lord. For it's not a 24-hour day, but to God is like a thousand-year "day" (2 Peter 3:8).

Also, Luke 17:26-37 and Matthew 24:37-41 compare the time of Noah (and Lot) to what will happen at Jesus' second coming, "when the Son of man is revealed" (Luke 17:30), "the coming of the Son of man" (Matthew 24:37,39), which Jesus had just finished saying will not happen until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31). Those "taken" at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will be unsaved people who will be taken to where they will be killed and birds will eat their dead bodies (Luke 17:36-37; Matthew 24:28, compare Job 39:30b; Revelation 19:21). The Greek word "paralambano" ("taken": Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) can be used to refer to being taken to another place to be killed (John 19:16-18).

Those "left" where they are at the second coming (Luke 17:34-36, Matthew 24:40-41) will include unsaved people who will be forced to come up annually to worship the returned Jesus in Jerusalem during the millennium (Zechariah 14:16-19). These unsaved people will have to be ruled with a rod of iron by Jesus and the bodily resurrected church during the millennium (Revelation 2:26-29, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 20:4-6, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 72:8-11). And their descendants will be deceived by Satan after the millennium is over into committing the Gog/Magog rebellion (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Before the millennium, at Jesus' second coming, those in the church will neither be "taken" and killed, nor "left" where they are, but will be "gathered together" (raptured) (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17). The purpose of this rapture meeting will be so that those in the church can be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, compare Mark 13:27) and married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7) in the sky, before Jesus descends from the sky (the first heaven) with the obedient part of church to bring his second-coming wrath on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:14 to 20:3).

So the second coming will be like "the days of Noah" (Matthew 24:37) and "the days of Lot" (Luke 17:28,30) in that just as Noah went into the ark before the Flood, and Lot went out from Sodom before it was destroyed, so the church will be raptured into the sky at the second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, Matthew 24:30-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7) before Jesus begins the second-coming wrath (Revelation 19:15 to 20:3, Luke 17:26-30, Matthew 24:37-39).
 
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Biblewriter said in post 2:

So Dr. John Gill explicitly called the Lord’s coming for his own the “rapture,” and explicitly said it would occur “suddenly,” and that the Lord “will stay in the air, and his saints shall meet him there, and whom he will take up with him into the third heaven, till the general conflagration and burning of the world is over.” There is no way to represent this as anything but a pre-tribulation rapture.

There is. For Gill can mean an amillennial, post-trib, second-coming, pre-new-earth rapture into the 3rd heaven. Which would be wrong, because no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven), to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). And after that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) and will reign on the earth with him for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then, after the thousand years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

Biblewriter said in post 2:

“A question will here naturally suggest itself to the mind of the reader. What is to become of the righteous in the awful period described in the foregoing prophecies? Now, the answer to this inquiry has been given, in considering the seventh chapter of the Apocalypse...This tribulation is manifestly that of the closing period of the earthquake and vials; and we are thus assured, that the righteous are to be preserved during the final display of divine wrath...a call is given to the righteous to the Marriage Supper of the Lamb...These considerations ought surely to awaken the Christian to pray more earnestly for his country, and to quicken his diligence, that he may individually be accounted worthy to ESCAPE the approaching wrath, and to stand before the Son of Man...Our Lord Himself has emphatically assured us, 'behold I come as a thief...' from these words we may certainly conclude, that He will come at a time, when few even of his own people expect it..." (William Cuninghame. A Dissertation on the Seals and Trumpets of the Apocalypse,"1817 ed., pp.334-354)\

The marriage supper (Revelation 19:9) has not yet begun by the time of Revelation 19, which will not occur until after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18/Matthew 24. For regarding the church, the marriage supper will be a literal feast in the earthly Jerusalem after Jesus' second coming and the resurrection and marriage of the church at that time (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-54). While the church will enjoy a feast "of fat things full of marrow, of wines on the lees well refined" (Isaiah 25:6), the birds will feast on the corpses of the armies of the unsaved world defeated at Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:17-21).

Luke 21:36 does not require a pre-tribulation rapture, for some in the church will escape all of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 by dying before it begins (Isaiah 57:1), and others in the church will escape all of it by being physically protected on the earth during it (Revelation 12:14-16, Psalms 91). Those who will escape it by dying before it begins will stand before the Lord in heaven (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). And those who will escape it by being miraculously protected on the earth during it will stand before the Lord in the sky at the rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:17), which will not occur until immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night doesn't mean that his coming is imminent. For he can't come until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Jesus' coming as a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2) means that he will come upon even Christians when they aren't expecting him only if they stop watching (staying awake, spiritually) during the tribulation. Compare the if principle of Revelation 3:3. Also, some in the church will still be alive on the earth during the tribulation's final stage, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). So his coming won't overtake them like a thief (1 Thessalonians 5:4, Matthew 24:43).

Regarding Jesus coming as a thief to the unsaved world, when it isn't expecting him (1 Thessalonians 5:2-4, Matthew 24:39), nothing requires that the unsaved world will be expecting Jesus' second coming after the tribulation. For during the tribulation, the unsaved world could come to believe that his second coming has already happened (Matthew 24:24-26).

Biblewriter said in post 2:

In a later version of this same book, he added, perhaps influenced by Darby, that:

"There is a double gathering of his saints unto our Lord, during his abode in the air; first of the 144,000 sealed ones, and secondly, the white-robed palm-bearers (Rev.vii.9-17). The former is at the first moment of the Advent, and the last at a later period...There are two events selected by our Lord himself, as the special types of His Advent, and the state of the world in that day...it is manifest that the Coming of the Lord is to find the world in a state of peace...the ten virgins...are all...found slumbering and sleeping...as soon as the Lord comes and takes to himself the Wise Virgins, the torrent of calamity which is to destroy the prophetic earth shall immediately thereafter break forth...But I remark that there is another class of passages, which no less certainly indicates that his coming shall be in a season of shaking and alarm and fear..." (date and page number not known)

In Revelation 7:9-15, the great multitude will be only that part of the church (Revelation 7:14b) which will enter the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and then come out of it (Revelation 7:14) and enter heaven (Revelation 7:15) by dying (cf. Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8) during the 2nd through 6th seals in the chapter just prior (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage. This will be similar to how the souls of "them that were slain for the word of God", who will be under the altar in heaven at the 5th seal (Revelation 6:9-11), will enter heaven by dying sometime before the 5th seal. And it will be similar to how those in the church who will be on the sea of glass in heaven (Revelation 15:2, cf. Revelation 12:11) at the tribulation's 7 last plagues (Revelation chapters 15-16), the tribulation's final stage, will enter heaven by dying during the just-preceding, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign of the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

The ten virgins parable (Matthew 25:1-13) shows that the marriage of the church to Jesus will not occur until his second coming (Matthew 25:10), which Jesus had just finished saying will not occur until "immediately after the tribulation" (Matthew 24:29-31), just like Revelation 19:7 shows that the marriage will not occur until after the tribulation, shown in Revelation chapters 6 to 18. The parable's extra oil (Matthew 25:4,9b) could represent the continued good works of believers, by which they will be able to pass the judgment of the church by Jesus (Matthew 25:19-30, Romans 2:6-8) and enter the marriage of the church to Jesus at his second coming (Matthew 25:10, Revelation 19:7-21).
 
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Manasseh_

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Ever since Dave McPherson began his research into and then presented documentation of the origins of the pretrib doctrine the pretrib camp has scrambled to manufacture their own historical evidence and they treat anything they find in the same manner as they do with scripture , they assume it based on a few words that sound as though earlier documents were speaking of a pretrib rapture. I never have seen them go back to the original documentation, ie, the scriptures themselves, they too are also historical documents ..........the reason is obvious why they can't refer to scripture, simply because there isn't one explicit statement in scripture that ever speaks of Christ returning twice (in 2 phases) with the first phase gathering saints before tribulation begins,............not one


although this alone should cause suspicion and raise red flags, at least cause them to question the validity of this doctrine it does not........instead they spent so much of their time with inventions of imaginations explaining verses that disagree and many times outright contradict this doctrine instead of time spent searching scripture to find the truth


their manufactured history with questionable evidence at best is just another of their time wasters and anyone can easily notice that true historians that have in certain cases spent lifetimes studying this theological history have ever called for any historical amendments made based on this so called pretrib evidence............ simply because after really careful study by qualified historians they have come to the same conclusions, ie , that pretribs representation of this so called historical evidence creates more questions than answers.
 
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Ever since Dave McPherson began his research into and then presented documentation of the origins of the pretrib doctrine the pretrib camp has scrambled to manufacture their own historical evidence and they treat anything they find in the same manner as they do with scripture , they assume it based on a few words that sound as though earlier documents were speaking of a pretrib rapture. I never have seen them go back to the original documentation, ie, the scriptures themselves, they too are also historical documents ..........the reason is obvious why they can't refer to scripture, simply because there isn't one explicit statement in scripture that ever speaks of Christ returning twice (in 2 phases) with the first phase gathering saints before tribulation begins,............not one


although this alone should cause suspicion and raise red flags, at least cause them to question the validity of this doctrine it does not........instead they spent so much of their time with inventions of imaginations explaining verses that disagree and many times outright contradict this doctrine instead of time spent searching scripture to find the truth


their manufactured history with questionable evidence at best is just another of their time wasters and anyone can easily notice that true historians that have in certain cases spent lifetimes studying this theological history have ever called for any historical amendments made based on this so called pretrib evidence............ simply because after really careful study by qualified historians they have come to the same conclusions, ie , that pretribs representation of this so called historical evidence creates more questions than answers.

Dave MacPhearsen flatlt lied when he claimed that Derby "covered up" his visit to Margaret MacDonald's church. Darby not only did not "cover it up," he openly wrote about his visit there, in an article he published. In that same article he gave his judgment that the movement was Satanic in its origins. Considering the amount of research MacPhersen put into his book, it is inconceivable that he did not know about this article.

The absolute truth is, that there is zero evidence that Darby even knew about the alleged vision. But there is significant evidence that if he did know about it, he would have given it no credence whatsoever. For Darby rejected any and all pretensions of any modern revelations from God, and he also reject all participation of women in church ministry.

So the claim that Darby got the idea from Margaret MacDonald has exactly zero foundation. It is a pure fabrication based on prejudice against the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture, and against all who hold it.

The evidence I have presented in this thread proves that the doctrine was around long before the time of Margaret MacDonald.

And I have posted, right here in this forum, boatloads of Biblical evidence for the doctrine, the most recent of which is posts 15-21 in the thread titled "Pre Trib Bible Study."
 
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Manasseh_

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Dave MacPhearsen flatlt lied when he claimed that Derby "covered up" his visit to Margaret MacDonald's church. Darby not only did not "cover it up," he openly wrote about his visit there, in an article he published. In that same article he gave his judgment that the movement was Satanic in its origins. Considering the amount of research MacPhersen put into his book, it is inconceivable that he did not know about this article.

The absolute truth is, that there is zero evidence that Darby even knew about the alleged vision. But there is significant evidence that if he did know about it, he would have given it no credence whatsoever. For Darby rejected any and all pretensions of any modern revelations from God, and he also reject all participation of women in church ministry.

So the claim that Darby got the idea from Margaret MacDonald has exactly zero foundation. It is a pure fabrication based on prejudice against the doctrine of the pre-trib rapture, and against all who hold it.

The evidence I have presented in this thread proves that the doctrine was around long before the time of Margaret MacDonald.

And I have posted, right here in this forum, boatloads of Biblical evidence for the doctrine, the most recent of which is posts 15-21 in the thread titled "Pre Trib Bible Study."


hey........I'm not defending Dave McPherson or otherwise and I'm not debating either way when and how the pretrib doctrine began or where it had it's origins historically speaking..............I just made a truthful statement that when he did present his evidence it certainly posed a great threat to the pretrib camp and its doctrine..........before this pretribbers spent little or no time at all presenting anything historical to show that the doctrine had been taught earlier than
later, it really didn't concern them very much until he published his first book on the matter...........

what is questionable is the fact that if this doctrine was clearly taught so early on as you claim it was then why after the hard time spent and searching pretrib comes up with very little so called evidence ?,,,,,,,,,,,you'd think that if the doctrine had been established and taught for nearly 2000 years that there would be quite a bit of historical documentation at pretribbers disposal...but truth be told it doesn't exist...........maybe it was a conspiracy long ago to destroy the plethera of this documentation........:p

as to your last statement it's simply untrue that you could present "boatloads" of pretrib evidence in scripture based soley on the fact that NOT ONE explicit verse exists in the whole bible of any pretrib gathering of saints and Christ returning in 2 phases.................not one

every and any verse you present has your first assumption injected into said verse(s)

this simple fact shows the reason why you can't and won't include scripture in addition with your "other" historical evidence
 
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its takes a bit of effort to gather the research and present it here on the forum. these days I think there's a pre-trib rapture, and it's useful to know the historical stuff, instead of just saying it was a Margaret Mc Donald fantasy.

^_^ ahahahahaaaHAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
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E. Irving (d.1834) was a Presbyterian preacher in the British Advent Awakening. He did not see how the church would finish the great commission without a miraculous return of the gifts and power of the early church. "Tongues" and "prophetic utterances" appeared among his followers, including women, and besides looking for a personal AC to appear other than the Pope, a seperate rapture of the church was a novel doctrine of his. Dr. R. Norton was a follower and first hand witness of Miss MacDonald's utterances. The witness is not an opponent, but a proponent. He wrote THE RESTORATION OF THE APOSTLES AND PROPHETS; IN THE CATHOLIC APOSTOLIC CHURCH (1861).

BW is likely correct that Darby (d.1882) didn't believe in prophetic utterances, least of all by women, but he may have added dispensationalism all the same. He definitely had the misunderstanding of the "mystery" that persists today which is more likely known as the "interruption" or "parenthesis" doctrine about the church regarding Israel. (the mystery of Eph 2-3, Col 1, Rom 16 is not the existence of the church but that entry by the nations into the one new community would be by faith, not by law). Darby also startled Europe with his preaching of Christ coming at any minute.

This logically developed the Bretheren's separation of the rapture and the coming, not so much because of individual verses, but because the church and Israel were totally separate 'plans' and there would be business to finish up. Obviously this led next to looking for things to actually happen in Israel where a remnant would appear who would be at work evangelistically during the absence of the church.

E. Elliott (d.1875) wrote 2500 pages documenting the Romanist part of the Tractarian movement and the rise of futurism and some preterism from the Jesuits. Dr. H. Guinness (c1910) also wrote 9 major works on the rise of futurism from the Jesuits.

A person doesn't have to be involved in charismatic gifts etc. to be wrongheaded about something like the "mystery" or to go very literalist about Rev.
 
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Futurism and D'ism in America are also intriguing because J. Inglis (of New York)'s WAYMARKS IN THE WILDERNESS (1862) and J. Brookes of St. Louis' MARANATHA (1870) were extremely similar on prophecy to what the Bretheren were saying without acknowledging any connection. Some historians say no connection with Darby was wanted because of the "gifts of the spirit" controversy.
 
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hey........I'm not defending Dave McPherson or otherwise and I'm not debating either way when and how the pretrib doctrine began or where it had it's origins historically speaking..............I just made a truthful statement that when he did present his evidence it certainly posed a great threat to the pretrib camp and its doctrine..........before this pretribbers spent little or no time at all presenting anything historical to show that the doctrine had been taught earlier than
later, it really didn't concern them very much until he published his first book on the matter...........

what is questionable is the fact that if this doctrine was clearly taught so early on as you claim it was then why after the hard time spent and searching pretrib comes up with very little so called evidence ?,,,,,,,,,,,you'd think that if the doctrine had been established and taught for nearly 2000 years that there would be quite a bit of historical documentation at pretribbers disposal...but truth be told it doesn't exist...........maybe it was a conspiracy long ago to destroy the plethera of this documentation........:p

as to your last statement it's simply untrue that you could present "boatloads" of pretrib evidence in scripture based soley on the fact that NOT ONE explicit verse exists in the whole bible of any pretrib gathering of saints and Christ returning in 2 phases.................not one


And NOT ONE explicit verse exists in the whole Bible says the rapture will not be until after the tribulation. Not One.

As to no scripture speaking of a return in 2 phases, no OT scripture ever said Messiah would come more than once. But the OT prophecies about the Messiah contained many details that would be contradictions if He had only been coming once. In the same way, the NT prophecies also contain many details that would be contradictions if Jesus were only returning once. The resolution to the apparent contradiction in the OT prophecies was that Messiah was coming more than once. And that is the resolution to the apparent contradictions in the NT prophecies about the return of Jesus. So your argument does not hold water.
every and any verse you present has your first assumption injected into said verse(s)


This is just as true of absolutely every scripture that you quote to prove post trib. They only prove post trib when you first inject your post trib doctrine into their words.

this simple fact shows the reason why you can't and won't include scripture in addition with your "other" historical evidence
This is simple nonsense.
 
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Biblefighter said in post 19:

The rapture is real.

Amen.

The idea of the rapture per se is real, in the sense of scriptural (even though the idea of a pre-tribulation rapture isn't). For the English word "rapture" is derived from the root of the Latin word "rapiemur", which is how the old Latin (Vulgate) translation of the Bible translated the original Greek word (harpazo) translated as "caught up" in 1 Thessalonians 4:17. So the "rapture" is the church's being "caught up together" at Jesus' second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17), which is the same as the church's being "gathered together" at his second coming (2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31), which will occur immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

Christians need to be wary of the mistaken idea that no rapture will occur at Jesus' second coming. For such an idea could be employed in the future by the Antichrist's False Prophet (of Revelation 19:20, Revelation 13:13-15) to fool some Christians into thinking that Jesus' second coming has happened (Matthew 24:23-26) without Jesus having to have raptured (caught up together/gathered together) the church to hold a meeting in the sky with him at his second coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30-31).
 
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