Many people see modern Christians as victims of a deception.

ChetSinger said:

OK, that's an OSAS-based commentary on the passage.

But consider this sentence from Jesus' explanation in Luke 8:

I'm sure you've heard wonderful stories of Christians who were martyred for their faith. But you may also have heard (as I have) of some who denied Christ under duress. Aren't such people accurately described as seeds on rocky soil who "believe for a while" but "in time of testing fall away"?

Who believes but a believer? Who can fall away but a believer?

And if a believer denies Jesus before men, won't he deny them before the Father, just as he says he will?

This subject is a regular fixture in the Apologetics and GT forums. Fyi, here's an active one right now: Once saved always saved? Please read. As is typical, it has grown to more than 400 posts and is still going strong.

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Okay, but you're suggesting that salvation depends on the will of man, and I'm not going to provide the verse(s) to the contrary because I know about these endless debates.

joneysd said:

It says fall away,their choice is no to follow what they started, it does not say that they lose their salvation.

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Proverbs 29:25
"Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is kept safe."

James 1:12
"Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him."

Revelation 2:10
"Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown."

Persevering under trial is what endurance is. It's Jesus who said that Christians have to "endure to the end" to be saved. What do you believe happens to a person who runs a race and doesn't finish it? Do they still get a trophy?

Do you think OSAS worked for Adam, Eve, Dathan, Abiram, On, Korah, King Saul, or Judas Iscariot? All of these people all started out approved by GOD didn't they? Did all of them finish that way?

Phoebe Ann said:

Okay, but you're suggesting that salvation depends on the will of man, and I'm not going to provide the verse(s) to the contrary because I know about these endless debates.

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Yeah, I've seen them on GT and "endless" is a good word for them.

tezboski99 said:

Proverbs 29:25
"Fear of man will prove to be a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lord is kept safe."

James 1:12
"Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him."

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The sheep follow the Shepherd and will persevere under trial.

tezboski99 said:

Persevering under trial is what endurance is. It's Jesus who said that Christians have to "endure to the end" to be saved. What do you believe happens to a person who runs a race and doesn't finish it? Do they still get a trophy?

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Here you're talking about hypocrites. They weren't really following the Shepherd and never experienced the new birth.

tezboski99 said:

Do you think OSAS worked for Adam, Eve, Dathan, Abiram, On, Korah, King Saul, or Judas Iscariot? All of these people all started out approved by GOD didn't they? Did all of them finish that way?

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What type of faith did they have?

joneysd said:

So when the bible says you have everlasting life it is lying, when it says you have passed from death in to everlasting life it is lying, what it should say is you have ever lasting life until your next sin, whom the son sets free is free indeed until his next sin, is that the scripture.

if your next sin separated us from God no one would be saved because we cannot help but sin.

If sin is greater than the blood of Jesus how did the blood overcome the sin in the first place.

By grace you are saved so none shall boast, what does that tell us.

our works are as filthy rags, if we could save ourselves why did we need Jesus at all.

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Excellent points!

joneysd said:

The biggest cry from many churches is against what they call "cheap Grace", they say many modern Christians use salvation and Grace as an excuse to continue sinning and they are not really saved at all.

What do you think?

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The foolish - thinking in their heart that if they confess, "We are Christians," in word only (but) not with power, while giving themselves over to ignorance, to a human death, not knowing where they are going nor who Christ is, thinking that they will live, when they are (really) in error - hasten towards the principalities and authorities. They fall into their clutches because of the ignorance that is in them. For (if) only words which bear testimony were effecting salvation, the whole world would endure this thing and would be saved. But it is in this way that they drew error to themselves.~Testimony of Truth

Phoebe Ann said:

The sheep follow the Shepherd and will persevere under trial.



Here you're talking about hypocrites. They weren't really following the Shepherd and never experienced the new birth.



What type of faith did they have?

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They all started out with AWESOME faith and then later "experienced shipwreck". Some of these persons were hand picked by GOD Himself. Are you suggesting that GOD chose people with "shaky" faith from the start?

joneysd said:

So when the bible says you have everlasting life it is lying, when it says you have passed from death in to everlasting life it is lying, what it should say is you have ever lasting life until your next sin, whom the son sets free is free indeed until his next sin, is that the scripture.

if your next sin separated us from God no one would be saved because we cannot help but sin.

If sin is greater than the blood of Jesus how did the blood overcome the sin in the first place.

By grace you are saved so none shall boast, what does that tell us.

our works are as filthy rags, if we could save ourselves why did we need Jesus at all.

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Have you not read 1 John 5:16-17?

"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."

You are referring to "accidental" sins that we can't help but to commit each day. Wrongful thoughts, desires, errors of speech, and many others that are sins NOT deserving of death. Christians commit these everyday and Christ's blood covers over them.

Yet there is also mentioned sin that DOES lead to death. Fornication, idolotry, murder, homosexuality, etc. GOD (not Montez) said that these persons will NOT inherit the kingdom of GOD. If a baptized "saved" Christian were to live a long life course of faithfulness and then commit these type of sins UNREPENTANTLY (key word there) and this person CONTINUALLY commits these sins deserving of death as a practice, GOD removes his spirit from them. He removes His approval of them as well.

Look at the example of King David. He was full of faith and wisdom for a long period of time. He committed sins for a certainty but he repented from the heart from them and accepted his punishment from GOD. GOD loved his attitude for that.

On the other hand Saul didn't have the same type of repentant attitude and look what happened to him.

tezboski99 said:

They all started out with AWESOME faith and then later "experienced shipwreck". Some of these persons were hand picked by GOD Himself. Are you suggesting that GOD chose people with "shaky" faith from the start?

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God is omnipotent as well as Sovereign. As for their faith, only God saw their hearts.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:19

tezboski99 said:

Have you not read 1 John 5:16-17?

"If you see any brother or sister commit a sin that does not lead to death, you should pray and God will give them life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death. There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that you should pray about that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."

You are referring to "accidental" sins that we can't help but to commit each day. Wrongful thoughts, desires, errors of speech, and many others that are sins NOT deserving of death. Christians commit these everyday and Christ's blood covers over them.

Yet there is also mentioned sin that DOES lead to death. Fornication, idolotry, murder, homosexuality, etc. GOD (not Montez) said that these persons will NOT inherit the kingdom of GOD. If a baptized "saved" Christian were to live a long life course of faithfulness and then commit these type of sins UNREPENTANTLY (key word there) and this person CONTINUALLY commits these sins deserving of death as a practice, GOD removes his spirit from them. He removes His approval of them as well.

Look at the example of King David. He was full of faith and wisdom for a long period of time. He committed sins for a certainty but he repented from the heart from them and accepted his punishment from GOD. GOD loved his attitude for that.

On the other hand Saul didn't have the same type of repentant attitude and look what happened to him.

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Answer Part 1:

If a person is born again he loves God. We don't work at being born again; we either are or are not.

For the sake of his great name the LORD will not reject his people, because the LORD was pleased to make you his own.
1 Samuel 12:22 NIV

He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
1 Samuel 2:9

16But they and our fathers dealt proudly, and hardened their necks, and hearkened not to thy commandments,

17And refused to obey, neither were mindful of thy wonders that thou didst among them; but hardened their necks, and in their rebellion appointed a captain to return to their bondage: but thou art a God ready to pardon, gracious and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and forsookest them not.

18Yea, when they had made them a molten calf, and said, This is thy God that brought thee up out of Egypt, and had wrought great provocations;

19Yet thou in thy manifold mercies forsookest them not in the wilderness: the pillar of the cloud departed not from them by day, to lead them in the way; neither the pillar of fire by night, to shew them light, and the way wherein they should go.
Nehemiah 9:16-19

O love the LORD, all ye his saints: for the LORD preserveth the faithful, and plentifully rewardeth the proud doer.
Psalm 31:23

Read Psalm 31:23 in NIV:
Love the LORD, all his faithful people! The LORD preserves those who are true to him, but the proud he pays back in full.

Thou art my hiding place; thou shalt preserve me from trouble; thou shalt compass me about with songs of deliverance. Selah.
Psalm 32:7

Psalm 23

5Blessed is the man whose strength is in thee; in whose heart are the ways of them.

6Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.

7They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.
Psalm 84:5-7

30If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;

31If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;

32Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.

33Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
Psalm 89:30-33

For the LORD will not cast off his people, neither will he forsake his inheritance.
Psalm 94:14

Ye that love the LORD, hate evil: he preserveth the souls of his saints; he delivereth them out of the hand of the wicked.
Psalm 97:10

The LORD shall preserve thee from all evil: he shall preserve thy soul.
Psalm 121:7

They that trust in the LORD shall be as mount Zion, which cannot be removed, but abideth for ever.
Psalm 125:1

He keepeth the paths of judgment, and preserveth the way of his saints.
Proverbs 2:8

Answer Part 2:

4Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

5For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

6For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

7For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

8In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

9For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.

10For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.
Isaiah 54:4-10

38And they shall be my people, and I will be their God: 39And I will give them one heart, and one way, that they may fear me for ever, for the good of them, and of their children after them: 40And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me. 41Yea, I will rejoice over them to do them good, and I will plant them in this land assuredly with my whole heart and with my whole soul. 42For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.
Jeremiah 32:38-42

22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. 23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Matthew 24:22-24

That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luke 1:74

But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Luke 22:32

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
John 3:36

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 10And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
John 17:9

Phoebe Ann said:

God is omnipotent as well as Sovereign. As for their faith, only God saw their hearts.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:19

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GOD does read hearts. But how our faith turns out is up to us. GOD works on an "if....then" basis. "If you strictly obey....then I will bless you" is still how grace works.

When GOD chose Saul as king GOD Himself put Holy Spirit on Him. Later, when Saul didn't continue on in his faith, GOD removed His Holy Spirit from Saul and annointed David.

Notice what GOD said about the faith of the Israelites at Judges 2:20-22,

"Because this nation has violated the covenant I ordained for their ancestors and has not listened to me, 21 I will no longer drive out before them any of the nations Joshua left when he died. 22 I will use them to test Israel and see whether they will keep the way of the Lord and walk in it as their ancestors did.”

Basically, GOD doesn't use His Omnipotence to see ahead of time how our faith turns out. That's up to you and me.

tezboski99 said:

GOD does read hearts. But how our faith turns out is up to us. GOD works on an "if....then" basis. "If you strictly obey....then I will bless you" is still how grace works.

When GOD chose Saul as king GOD Himself put Holy Spirit on Him. Later, when Saul didn't continue on in his faith, GOD removed His Holy Spirit from Saul and annointed David.

Notice what GOD said about the faith of the Israelites at Judges 2:20-22,

"Because this nation has violated the covenant I ordained for their ancestors and has not listened to me, 21 I will no longer drive out before them any of the nations Joshua left when he died. 22 I will use them to test Israel and see whether they will keep the way of the Lord and walk in it as their ancestors did.”

Basically, GOD doesn't use His Omnipotence to see ahead of time how our faith turns out. That's up to you and me.

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No one can produce fruit unless God makes it grow.

Man doesn't will himself to be saved. God makes the decision to change the sinner's heart.


Romans 9:16
New International Version (©2011)
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
New Living Translation (©2007)
So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

English Standard Version (©2001)
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy.

International Standard Version (©2012)
Therefore, God's choice does not depend on a person's will or effort, but on God himself, who shows mercy.

Phoebe Ann said:

No one can produce fruit unless God makes it grow.

Man doesn't will himself to be saved. God makes the decision to change the sinner's heart.


Romans 9:16
New International Version (©2011)
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
New Living Translation (©2007)
So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

English Standard Version (©2001)
So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
So then it does not depend on human will or effort but on God who shows mercy.

International Standard Version (©2012)
Therefore, God's choice does not depend on a person's will or effort, but on God himself, who shows mercy.

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You are correct in that all of the provisions of grace come from GOD. If the person's heart is correct GOD let's Himself be found by us humans. (Isaiah 45:19)

The question here is if a person is "saved by grace" can they lose that salvation? The answer is YES. "Once saved always saved" only works for those that continually "endure to the end".

Matthew 24:13
"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."
-Jesus
Revelation 2:10
"But if you remain faithful even when facing death, I will give you the crown of life."
-Jesus

2 Peter 2:20-22
"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed returns to her wallowing in the mud.”

If you don't endure to the end then you don't get your "crown of life". These letters were written to congregations of people that had already accepted Jesus and received Holy Spirit upon them. If "once saved always saved" were accurate there'e no need at all to even write these things to "saved people" is it?

joneysd said:

that would mean no one can be saved as we all sin, we cannot help ourselves.

If God's Grace is truly Grace, which means undeserved favour the very idea is that we do not deserve to be saved but because of God's great love we are saved.

If we could be saved by our own good deeds we would not need Jesus but of course we do.

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Yep. We all sin. The scriptures say so. Even Paul:

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me.
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.


In our weakness when we do sin, we are aware that a sinless God is above and beyond us, knows our weakness, yet abides with us because we love him as much as possible, while he loves us unconditional.


If one thinks that they will never sin again, they probably think that they are as Christ as well (sinless). We are to be in remission of sin after baptism.


Mark 1:
John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.


Luke 24:
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.


Matthew 26:
For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.




Remission means "with less intensity". We abstain from it because we know the truth of Christ, but the flesh is weak though the spirit strong.

joneysd said:

that would mean no one can be saved as we all sin, we cannot help ourselves.

If God's Grace is truly Grace, which means undeserved favour the very idea is that we do not deserve to be saved but because of God's great love we are saved.

If we could be saved by our own good deeds we would not need Jesus but of course we do.

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You're mistaken in your conclusion. The outcome is that a person WILL be saved by following the course that Jesus set and the accidental sins we commit each day are covered over by Jesus' shed blood.

What you seem to be describing is that a person "once saved" can go off a lead a life of debauchery without repenting and "turning around" from it at all and that everything is still "a okay" because they were "once saved always saved". That's not accurate.

As I say I may be mistaken in the message that you are presenting but that does seem to be the case you are trying to make. "Now that I'm baptized no matter what I do I'm still saved even if I don't endure to the end".

Or, as Jude put it;

"saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives."