I'm not following your point here in relation to the figures in the Tanakh (Old Testament).
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I'm not following your point here in relation to the figures in the Tanakh (Old Testament).
On the matter of divorce. Where does it say that in relation to plural marriage?
I've always found that line to be insulting. As if men's hearts suddenly became "softer" in the first century.
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God chose only one of David's errors for specific later punishment. But David erred more than once, with those drawing more direct consequences. Some examples:
Murdering one of his most long-trusted men--and using his commanding general as the murder weapon--over a woman cost him the trust of that general, with consequences that followed from that failure of leadership.
Counting the men was an error--for which David was amply warned--with the consequence being the greatest disaster ever suffered by Israel up until the Captivity.
Not dealing with Amnon's rape of Tamar resulted in the division of his family and an attempted rebellion.
Failing to announce and prepare the kingdom for transition of the throne to a younger son rather than the expected and traditional elder son set the stage for another attempted rebellion.
God just nailed David later on the one sin that he hadn't yet fully felt the consequences of.
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1 Kings 15:5
For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.
I'll side with G-d over RDKirk.
Not all mistakes are sins.
For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.
I'll side with G-d over RDKirk.
Not all mistakes are sins.
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How many wives did God give Adam?
Notice that Jesus never gave a rodent's rear about people being insulted by His words.
If you read Jesus' "sermon on the mount," He is making an upgrade. As it says in the book of Hebrews, this is a superior covenant that stipulates a higher level of performance.
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Irrelevant to Him giving multiple wives to David, wouldn't you say?
Yes, yes, so Christianity has said. The proof is in the pudding, it is said, and history does not show a higher level of performance.
The Torah never needed an upgrade. It was perfect.
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In that case, in 2 Chronicles 21:1, you must be substituting "God" where the text says "Satan."
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I think you have the wrong verse. Are you speaking of the part where Satan tells him to take a census?
As an aside, perhaps you should also know that Judaism does not have some sort of antagonist of G-d in the form of "Satan". He is an angel of the Lord that does not deviate from the task given him. You will not find him doing so in the text of the Tanakh.
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Am I substituting Satan for HaShem?
2 Samuel 24:
24 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”
Seems like the Tanakh is doing that for me. Almost like Satan was delivering the message to go do something to David... as if he were obediently carrying out orders.
2 Samuel 24:
24 Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go and take a census of Israel and Judah.”
2 So the king said to Joab and the army commanders[a] with him, “Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are.”
Seems like the Tanakh is doing that for me. Almost like Satan was delivering the message to go do something to David... as if he were obediently carrying out orders.
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No, I'm sorry. I want to remain within Judaism.
I have a brother who became Catholic though.
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So you're saying, actually, that God was angry at Israel for some unspecified reason and used David as a tool to inflict the greatest calamity that Israel had ever suffered?
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2 Samuel says that HaShem was angry at Israel and ordered David to do the census. I am not sure what He was angry about. As you said it isn't specified.
Are you saying that 2 Samuel is wrong though?
All calamities Israel suffered, is suffering, or will suffer is at the will of HaShem. Why would I flinch at this one?
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so it is ok since they were not humanbeings created by the same God
I Didn't say it Is ok.Where did you get that idea ?.It is terrorism on people who were minding their own business much like what Muhammad Did to Jews In medina.The difference being Muhammad was motivated by Booty.
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You need to read up on this in Gen. like Gen. 15: 16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure.
God will give them, 400 years to go from really bad to worse.
Here is some information:
The Amorites were a distinctly war-culture, as well. They show up--by the name of Amorites-- in conquest texts as early as 2200 B.C. (EBLA3:90), and by their other names in many, many places.
"The Semitic Amorites are the best known: in Mesopotamian sources they are the mar-tu (Sumerian) and amurru (Akkadian), both of which words mean "west," and they are referred to as desert people who "know not grain." In the third millennium B.C. the conquests of Sargon of Akkad (2371-2316) extended to "the upper sea," meaning that he must have marched west to the Mediterranean. In the second millennium the Amorites established their First Dynasty in Babylon in which Hammurabi (1792-1750) was the most famous king; contemporary with that dynasty there were Amorite kings in Mari on the Middle Euphrates. At Jericho and other sites in Canaan cultural changes toward the end of the third millennium suggest the influx of new nomadic tribal people, probably Amorites.
Archeological evidence is firm and growing. Child sacrifice burial grounds are called tophet in the literature, and they occur throughout Palestine and the Phoenician empire. Ahlstrom mentions sites "at 'Atlit, Tell el-Far'a (S) and Tell el 'Ajjul in Palestine" (HAP:688, n.2). He gives a description of one monument depicting child sacrifice (HAP:op. cit.):
"The archaeological excavations at Punic Pozo Moro in Spain show a monument with a ritual scene with a god (with an animal head) on a throne and a table in front of him. He holds with one hand a pig lying on its back and in the other hand he has a bowl with the head and the feet of a little child (?) sticking up. He holds this bowl in front of his mouth. To the right there is another bowl, and a god with an animal head (horse?) holding a knife in his right hand above the bowl ready to slaughter the child. The scene (in a neo-Hittite style) shows both animal and child sacrifices as food for the gods."
New sites recently found include Gezer, Tyre, and numerous 'high places' (POTW:171, Is 57.5-7).
These child sacrifices were practiced not only during religious ceremonies (as most of the above were), but also during times of crisis (esp. warfare) and as dedication offerings at the building of cities/houses (i.e. "foundation sacrifices"; cf. AI:442). So Stern (ZPEB, s.v. "war, warfare" p. 895):
"Further, to secure God's aid, the troops would make sacrifices prior to battle--sometimes even human sacrifices...This custom seems also to have been taken from earlier Canaanite traditions, for in many Egyp. reliefs from the late kingdom, depicting the capture of towns in Pal., the besieged are shown throwing their children from the walls in seeking the gods' favor."
Notice that unlike so many other aberrant practices (e.g. sorcery) of the Canaanites, THIS WAS NOT widely shared by the other ANE cultures--it was a rarity. This evil was specifically Canaanite/Amorite. [Pushback:""But, hey, what about Abraham?!--Didn't God order HIM to sacrifice his kid? Isn't this a little inconsistent, pal?!"]
Incest was likewise NOT an acceptable ANE practice. For example, the famous Laws of Hammurabi contain several sections on this issue (Para 154-158; LCMAM:110-111) as do the Hittite law codes (laws 189-191; LCMAM:236).
The only external data about Canaanite practice we have here (you can imagine how difficult it would be to leave archeological traces of this around!) comes from the religious myths and 'role models' of their gods. [It must be remembered that the religious rituals of ancient cultures were generally 'reenactments' of divine activities. For example, when a religious myth would have one god impregnating another--producing "spring"--the humans would "re-enact" this with the cultic prostitutes.]
For example, in the Ugaritic corpus (Canaanite), there is the story of an incestuous El:
"The second myth is often called 'The Birth of the Good and Gracious God.' It opens with a banquet at which wine flows freely. The text is divided into sections, the tenth being the last and most crucial. El is about to create two women who will become either his wives or daughters, depending on his ability to impregnate them. He creates these females and seduces them, and they both become pregnant. One bears a child called Dawn (Shahar), and the other a child called Dusk (Shalim). Later, El makes love to these same women and they produce seven sons between them. These sons are 'the good and gracious gods.' They are destined to be gods of fertility, and are first suckled at the breasts of 'the Lady' (Asherah, wife of El?)." (NIEBF: 130).
ANE codes (e.g. Hittite laws 187-188; LCMAM:236), but shows up in the Canaanite mythology, with Baal as the role model this time.
Baal is generally pictured in human form, and is often accompanied by a bull or rides upon a bull. (He is sometimes pictured as a bull as well, but this is in drawings, not in literary texts.) In one Ugaritic text, Baal, on his way to the underworld, has sexual relations with a young heifer (NIEBF:129; ANET
139): Puissant Baal complies.
He desires a calf-cow in Dubr;
A heifer in Shihlmemat-field;
Lies with her times seventy-seven,
[...]...times eighty-eight.
[See also the summary statement in ISBE: s.v. "Crimes", where it is linked to "certain pagan rites and mythology"]
The use of male and female prostitutes is also attested and sanctioned (to some extent) throughout the ANE (MWR:189-190), and clearly so in Canaanite sanctuaries (AI:384). So, NIEBF:130:
" The Bible and the Canaanite texts at Ugarit use the words qadesh and qedesha which mean 'holy one'--the first masculine, the second feminine. At Ugarit these 'holy ones' were homosexual priests and priestesses who acted as prostitutes.
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It's not too late for you either.
I can tell you're waivering. I know deep down inside you know you want to finally have your sins forgiven and come to the Father through the Son ...
You can't know how wrong you are about wavering. I am not, in the slightest, wavering. I have studied the claims of Christians, I weighed them against the Tanakh, and found Jesus lacking.
My sins are forgiven. I use the methods that are shown in the Tanakh for sins to be forgiven.
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