Is the rapture at Pentecost?

yeshuasavedme · May 14, 2013

Ronald said:
trumpets were used for various things, usually to signal a gathering or to warn people to prepare for war. ...

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The Silver Trumpets Moses saw to type the Two in heaven were the only trumpets blown to call the gathering together unto YHWH at His tabernacle door, to hear His instructions.

Those trumpets have no set time to be blown to call the assembly to gather before Him, but when He says "Call my people to gather unto me, before my Tabernacle door", then the trumpets will be blown exactly as Numbers 10:1-7 types for us, as a living oracle.
They are not the Cornet/bone trumpets.

The cornet/bone trumpets were not used to call the elders and the entire congregation to assemble before the tabernacle door to hear the instruction of YHWH.

Only the two silver trumpets were to call the assembly of YHWH to gather before His tabernacle door to hear from Him.
One blast of the two together calls the elders to assemble before His tabernacle door.
A second blast of the two blown in rapid succession [like the blink of an eye] calls the entire congregation of YHWH to assemble before His tabernacle door, to hear His instructions.

Isaiah 26:19-21 tells us the dead rise first and the living last, to meet Him at His Tabernacle Door in heaven, and tells us what He will instruct them to do "Come My people, enter into your chambers and shut the doors behind you and hide yourselves for a little while, until the tribulation is past"

Choose Wisely · May 14, 2013

Zadok7000 said:
The Holy Spirit will NEVER be taken away. That's a pre-trib fallacy.
If He is, how can anyone convert to Christianity during the trib? Answer: they can't.

Maybe if you understood what the times of the Gentiles are and what the latter rain is, your eyes could be opened.

Zadok7000 · May 16, 2013

Choose Wisely said:
Maybe if you understood what the times of the Gentiles are and what the latter rain is, your eyes could be opened.

Or maybe I used to believe as you do but THEN my eyes were opened. Holy Spirit isn't going anywhere, we aren't going anywhere, He is returning to reign in Jerusalem.

bibletruth469 · May 16, 2013

I subscribed to this post

I believe that the rapture will happen in a Pentecost year. I used to believe that the first in gathering would occur at the feasts of trumpets .( we do not know the year but God gives us enough info in the scripture to know the season but not the year, know one knows the day or the hour) it was the time period of the feasts of Pentecost at the giving of the Holy Spirit in acts 2, but there is more to come. The church began on this feast, maybe the church age will end on this feast.

The very 1st harvest occurred at 1 st fruits when Jesus was raised( happened on the very day) there hasn't yet been a gathering of the saints yet( the church) I believe the next thing to occur in Gods prophetic calendar is the rapture of the church. More to come...

bibletruth469 · May 16, 2013

bibletruth469 said:
I subscribed to this post

I believe that the rapture will happen in a Pentecost year. I used to believe that the first in gathering would occur at the feasts of trumpets .( we do not know the year but God gives us enough info in the scripture to know the season but not the year, know one knows the day or the hour) it was the time period of the feasts of Pentecost at the giving of the Holy Spirit in acts 2, but there is more to come. The church began on this feast, maybe the church age will end on this feast.

The very 1st harvest occurred at 1 st fruits when Jesus was raised( happened on the very day) there hasn't yet been a gathering of the saints yet( the church) I believe the next thing to occur in Gods prophetic calendar is the rapture of the church. More to come...

Clarification : I believe " no one knows the day or hour " will occur on feast of trumpets after the rapture and the church age. In mat 24, every eye will see Him and He gathers His elect at the sounding of a great trumpet . This happens after the rapture of the church.This is the grape harvest, not the wheat harvest which symbolizes the church in scripture . Look at the Book of Ruth and how it relates to the wheat and barley harvest . It is a type of our kinsmen redeemer and the church. Note: the book of Ruth is read my the Jews at every feast of Pentecost !

bibletruth469 · May 16, 2013

Order of events: Pentecost -pre- trib, rapture . Trumpets-gathering of the elect

ebedmelech · May 16, 2013

This is just bad thinking. The feast of Israel were given to them to keep them mindful of these events

Passover - Redemption

Unleavened bread - turning from sin

Firstfruits - Christ resurrection

Pentecost - The Promise of the Spirit

Trumpets - Gathering of God's Elect

Atonement - Our ultimate salvation

Tabernacles - After the harvest...God lives among us.

It's not about the time...it's about what they mean and what we should look forward to.

bibletruth469 · May 16, 2013

ebedmelech said:
This is just bad thinking. The feast of Israel were given to them to keep them mindful of these events

Passover - Redemption

Unleavened bread - turning from sin

Firstfruits - Christ resurrection

Pentecost - The Promise of the Spirit

Trumpets - Gathering of God's Elect

Atonement - Our ultimate salvation

Tabernacles - After the harvest...God lives among us.

It's not about the time...it's about what they mean and what we should look forward to.

Yes, the feasts are for The Lord and also Israel . They are both prophetic and and historical .

bibletruth469 · May 16, 2013

The 1st 3 feasts were fulfilled with Christ's 1st coming. The next 4 are still future concerning Christ's 2nd coming . The one in the middle , Pentecost is the harvest, next in gods prophetic calendar, the rapture of the church.

ebedmelech · May 16, 2013

bibletruth469 said:
The 1st 3 feasts were fulfilled with Christ's 1st coming. The next 4 are still future concerning Christ's 2nd coming . The one in the middle , Pentecost is the harvest, next in gods prophetic calendar, the rapture of the church.

I must disagree bibletruth.

Pentecost began the birth of the church empowered by the Holy Spirit...and that began the harvest. The church is being harvested now.

I don't hold to but one rapture...and Jesus said it's on the last day. So often those who hold to a "pre tribulation rapture", have to impose that on the scripture, because no passage clearly speaks of the "pre tribulation rapture".

As I stated in an earlier in post #28 of this thread, Paul lays it out pretty clear in 1 Corinthians 15:20-24.

Put forth your rapture passages and let's examine them...

shturt678 · May 16, 2013

ebedmelech said:
I must disagree bibletruth.

Pentecost began the birth of the church empowered by the Holy Spirit...and that began the harvest. The church is being harvested now.

I don't hold to but one rapture...and Jesus said it's on the last day. So often those who hold to a "pre tribulation rapture", have to impose that on the scripture, because no passage clearly speaks of the "pre tribulation rapture".

As I stated in an earlier in post #28 of this thread, Paul lays it out pretty clear in 1 Corinthians 15:20-24.

Put forth your rapture passages and let's examine them...

Yes, indeed!

bibletruth469 · May 16, 2013

ebedmelech said:
I must disagree bibletruth.

Pentecost began the birth of the church empowered by the Holy Spirit...and that began the harvest. The church is being harvested now.

I don't hold to but one rapture...and Jesus said it's on the last day. So often those who hold to a "pre tribulation rapture", have to impose that on the scripture, because no passage clearly speaks of the "pre tribulation rapture".

As I stated in an earlier in post #28 of this thread, Paul lays it out pretty clear in 1 Corinthians 15:20-24.

Put forth your rapture passages and let's examine them...

The birth of the church began at Pentecost ; the Holy Spirit came down and He lives in every believer during the church age. Yes , I agree with you in that , however there has been no harvest yet of believers being raised in a resurrected body, raised to glory. This has not happened yet! I believe that there is more to Pentecost .thats the resurrection time, the harvest of believers.

There are many pre-trib verses . Here's a few: rev 3:10, 1 theo 1:10, rom 5:9, Titus 2:13 to name a few. A must look at for a study! Look at eph 1:10 it reads"That the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth, even in Him". Notice the gathering to The Lord . Look at 1 theo 4:16-17 also.

Now, on to the phase " the last day" . This completes the church age, not after the tribulation period . All these verses mentioned speak about the church age being completed. ( John 6::40, John 6:44, John 6:54,) also look at John 11:24 at the raising of Lazarus. It reads" Martha said unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the reserection at the last day" . Speaks of reserection at the end of the church age.. In the context of these passages , it is clear what they mean. By the way, these passages are not taken as ' proof' for timing of the rapture .

You mentioned 1 cor 15:20-24. One must look at the entire passage to not take out of context.start with 1 cor1-34. The overall context seems to speak about , if Christ has risen from the dead- we will be raised also. I don't think it mentions the timing of the rapture. I think that answers the questions for now...

shturt678 · May 17, 2013

bibletruth469 said:
The birth of the church began at Pentecost ; the Holy Spirit came down and He lives in every believer during the church age. Yes , I agree with you in that , however there has been no harvest yet of believers being raised in a resurrected body, raised to glory. This has not happened yet! I believe that there is more to Pentecost .thats the resurrection time, the harvest of believers.

There are many pre-trib verses . Here's a few: rev 3:10, 1 theo 1:10, rom 5:9, Titus 2:13 to name a few. A must look at for a study! Look at eph 1:10 it reads"That the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth, even in Him". Notice the gathering to The Lord . Look at 1 theo 4:16-17 also.

Now, on to the phase " the last day" . This completes the church age, not after the tribulation period . All these verses mentioned speak about the church age being completed. ( John 6::40, John 6:44, John 6:54,) also look at John 11:24

....bringing back ol' memories going around and around with "Rapturist" long ago, exactly with Rev.3:10, and passages in John. Thank you. Rev.3:10, this promise was dictated in the year 95 and was based on the faithful adherence of this church to the Word prior to 95. The promise here made is given to those are members of this church in 95 of course. My point is are we to imagine that these people are to see the millennial and at its start experience this "Rapture"? This impending trial is not the "great tribulation" that was foretold by Jesus in Matt.24:21, for this occurred during the siege of Jerusalem in the year 70, twenty-five years before Revelation was written.

Regarding the passages in John, always scrutinize Jn.5:28, "....all in their tombs..." None left behind here grammatically and contextually, i.e., the good, the bad and the ugly, all.

ebedmelech · May 17, 2013

bibletruth469 said:
The birth of the church began at Pentecost ; the Holy Spirit came down and He lives in every believer during the church age. Yes , I agree with you in that , however there has been no harvest yet of believers being raised in a resurrected body, raised to glory. This has not happened yet! I believe that there is more to Pentecost .thats the resurrection time, the harvest of believers.

There was more than one harvest though and Pentecost is where Christ gave birth to the church. Pentecost happened 50 days after the Feast of Firstfruits and we know from 1 Corinthians 15:20 that Christ is the firstfriuts;
20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.

Now...what do you do with the other harvest bibletrtuh459? The harvests that occurred and brought in the Feast of Tabernacles?

Look at when the Feast of Tabernacles was to be held...Leviticus 23:39:
39 ‘On exactly the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when you have gathered in the crops of the land, you shall celebrate the feast of the Lord for seven days, with a rest on the first day and a rest on the eighth day.

What do you do with that harvest? You don't have to agree with me but this speaks of harvest of the church, which is celebrated with the Feast of Tabernacles...as Revelation 21:3:
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying,“Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them,

Take a look at that...

bibletruth469 said:
There are many pre-trib verses . Here's a few: rev 3:10, 1 theo 1:10, rom 5:9, Titus 2:13 to name a few. A must look at for a study! Look at eph 1:10 it reads"That the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven and which are in earth, even in Him". Notice the gathering to The Lord . Look at 1 theo 4:16-17 also.

I cannot agree with your verses you say support a rapture...a rapture is imposed on them...

Rev 3:10 - Christ is speaking to the Church at Philadelphia, there is no doubt this is a real existent church and Christ tell them He will keep them from the "hour of testing WHICH IS ABOUT to come on the whole world". What has you thinking this church means us now? This is something that really confused me as a young believer many years ago (I was taught the futurist rapture), I never could understand how this could mean this time frame we're in now. Now, Christ was warning the saints of this church to endure the "hour of temptation" that would come upon them. How is that us today?

None of these verses you supply, speak of a rapture. Particulary 1 Thessalonians 4 :16, 17, which agree with what Paul said of the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:20 and it also agrees with Christ coming. The "last trumpet" is the "last day".

bibletruth469 said:
Now, on to the phase " the last day" . This completes the church age, not after the tribulation period . All these verses mentioned speak about the church age being completed. ( John 6::40, John 6:44, John 6:54,) also look at John 11:24 at the raising of Lazarus. It reads" Martha said unto Him, I know that he shall rise again in the reserection at the last day" . Speaks of reserection at the end of the church age.. In the context of these passages , it is clear what they mean. By the way, these passages are not taken as ' proof' for timing of the rapture .

Where does Jesus speak of a "church age" or a "tribulation period" or anything else in these verses? All he speaks of is the resurrection. Again I must insist you're imposing on the passage. Each verse is empty of anyone's theology but the Lord Jesus look at each verse (all are from John 6)

6:39 - This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.

6:40 - For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.”

6:44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

6:54 -He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.

The Lord addresses the resurrection on the "last day"...that's all.

bibletruth469 said:
You mentioned 1 cor 15:20-24. One must look at the entire passage to not take out of context.start with 1 cor1-34. The overall context seems to speak about , if Christ has risen from the dead- we will be raised also. I don't think it mentions the timing of the rapture.

I would disagree. The chapter does this ...

1. Affirm the resurrection of Christ (verses 1-19)

2. Affirm that since Christ was raised, we to will be raised (verses 20-28)

3. Explain that baptism speaks to resurrection (verses 29-34)

4. Explain what happens to the body upon the resurrection (verses 35-49)

5. Explain when the resurrection happens how the dead will be raised and those alive will be changed. (verses 50-58)

In all those verses there's not one hint of but one rapture...that is the last day.

bibletruth469 said:
I think that answers the questions for now...

If you think they do...ok. However I think I just showed the problems with your view.

bibletruth469 · May 17, 2013

To Ebedmelech and shturt678,

We have VERY different belief systems. I believe in a pre- trib rapture( scriptures listed of why below), and also a gathering of the elect when Jesus returns after the tribulation period. (Please reference Matthew 24. ) It appears that you both have a preterist belief system which means that there are no future events left to occur. It seems that we will not be able to come to any agreement based on our vastly different belief systems.

Please read my previous post on "the feasts of Israel". There is a lot of detail in that particular thread which is very in depth on the 1st 3 feasts and Pentecost . Christ died on the cross on the very day of Passover , was buried on the feast of unleavened bread, He rose on the feasts of 1st fruits. Each one is fulfilled on the VERY day of the feast at His 1st coming. I believe that He will fulfill to the exact day of His 2nd coming( Pentecost , trumpets , day of atonement , and tabernacles. ) all of these 7 feasts of The Lord have both historical and prophetic implications.

Below are some scriptures passages that will defend the pre- trib view :

Rev 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation , which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth."

I thes 1:10 "And to wait for His son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

Titus 2:13" looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ" .

1 thes 4: 16-18 " For The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet The Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with The Lord . Wherefore comfort one another with these words ".

Many people will have different rapture views. The most important truth is to believe in the saving work of Jesus and to have faith in him . Also to believe in your heart that he rose from the dead and became a sacrifice on our behalf for the forgiveness of our sins. This is our foundational belief!

Interplanner · May 17, 2013

to bibletruth469,
re "preterism means there are no future events to take place."
Let's remember that a person can only be here apart from full preterism, in which full refers to an absolute no-future events. (In that case, I don't know what they do with the 2nd coming!). The upshot is that everyone is pre- to a certain % and future to the reciprocal %.

On another issue, If I was going to defend pre-trib, I would only use the Rev 3 passage you mentioned, but even then, if someone said God was indicating there that you would go through an ordeal with integrity and safety, I wouldn't be able to disagree. Your other passages don't have to be about pre-trib; you must realize that the answers fall into 3 categories: definitely vs. 50/50 vs. definitely not. The one about the wrath of God would really confuse things. Is the wrath of God only coming up on a 'slice' of humanity at the supposed 'great tribulation'? No, it comes up on all, shielded by Christ or not. The blessed hope? Rom 5 established our basis of hope without anything to say about a rapture or implication of one.

We have to detach ourselves enough from what we are reading to see these things, and to realize that we might think 'rapture' is teeming through every other line we read, when in reality it is not, and other people are perfectly right to dismiss that way of reading things.

ebedmelech · May 17, 2013

bibletruth469 said:
To Ebedmelech and shturt678,

We have VERY different belief systems. I believe in a pre- trib rapture( scriptures listed of why below), and also a gathering of the elect when Jesus returns after the tribulation period. (Please reference Matthew 24. ) It appears that you both have a preterist belief system which means that there are no future events left to occur. It seems that we will not be able to come to any agreement based on our vastly different belief systems.

Please read my previous post on "the feasts of Israel". There is a lot of detail in that particular thread which is very in depth on the 1st 3 feasts and Pentecost . Christ died on the cross on the very day of Passover , was buried on the feast of unleavened bread, He rose on the feasts of 1st fruits. Each one is fulfilled on the VERY day of the feast at His 1st coming. I believe that He will fulfill to the exact day of His 2nd coming( Pentecost , trumpets , day of atonement , and tabernacles. ) all of these 7 feasts of The Lord have both historical and prophetic implications.

Below are some scriptures passages that will defend the pre- trib view :

Rev 3:10 "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation , which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell on the earth."

I thes 1:10 "And to wait for His son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come."

Titus 2:13" looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ" .

1 thes 4: 16-18 " For The Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet The Lord in the air : and so shall we ever be with The Lord . Wherefore comfort one another with these words ".

Many people will have different rapture views. The most important truth is to believe in the saving work of Jesus and to have faith in him . Also to believe in your heart that he rose from the dead and became a sacrifice on our behalf for the forgiveness of our sins. This is our foundational belief!

It's clearly apparent we believe eschatology differently...and I agree salvation doesn't hinge on that apart from believing Christ will return.

We've had a pleasant exchange of how we believe these things and I certainly don't expect you to rethink how you view eschatology, unless you're convinced you should.

The point again was if scripture is to be viewed how you view it. Nothing you've presented clearly affirms a rapture....and it's very apparent.

Having said that I appreciate the exchange...and as the end unfolds we will know even as we are known.

shturt678 · May 18, 2013

bibletruth469 said:
To Ebedmelech and shturt678,

We have VERY different belief systems. I believe in a pre- trib rapture( scriptures listed of why below), and also a gathering of the elect when Jesus returns after the tribulation period. (Please reference Matthew 24. ) It appears that you both have a preterist belief system which means that there are no future events left to occur. It seems that we will not be able to come to any agreement based on our vastly different belief systems.['QUOTE] Deleted rest of post, ol' Jack

I'm just an ol' old Lutheran that falls in between "Preterism" and "Futurism," ie, main visions, including Rev.7:14 & IIThess.2:9-12, occurring right this moment. Thank you bibletruth. Just you ol' friend Jack.

Ronald · May 18, 2013

ebedmelech said:
ebedmelech said:

I listen to Hank but I don't agree with all he says either...but He's clearly correct that there will be:
*No "pre trib" rapture,
*No 3rd temple
*Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD...

Click to expand...

I agree with the above, but not that most of Revelation is about something that happened 25 years prior to when it was written. We've discussed this before, partial preterists/amillennialists insist that Revelation was written prior to 70A.D for their beliefs to conform --I don't think it was for several reasons. http://www.christianforums.com/t7713710-3/

and that is the point of most of Revelation.

Click to expand...

Actually, I would prefer your view over mine and the pre-trib view as well, then I could just live my life without thinking the GT is almost upon us! Too late, I can't help but thinking it is.

The trumpets were blown at every feast!

Click to expand...

So you think the seven trumpets In Revelation were already blown and all the events within occurred? Seven bowls too?
You don't think the last trumpet could be related to this series of seven in no way shape or form? Ok, this is where we part ways. We are at the fork in the road again.

ebedmelech · May 18, 2013

Ronald said:
I agree with the above, but not that most of Revelation is about something that happened 25 years prior to when it was written. We've discussed this before, partial preterists/amillennialists insist that Revelation was written prior to 70A.D for their beliefs to conform --I don't think it was for several reasons. http://www.christianforums.com/t7713710-3/
Yeah we've done that. I hold 95 AD is impossible.

Ronald said:

Actually, I would prefer your view over mine and the pre-trib view as well, then I could just live my life without thinking the GT is almost upon us! Too late, I can't help but thinking it is.

Click to expand...

The church has endured much tribulation since the GT when Jerusalem was destroyed.

The GT was specific to Jerusalem's destruction as I understand the scripture.

Ronald said:

So you think the seven trumpets In Revelation were already blown and all the events within occurred? Seven bowls too?
You don't think the last trumpet could be related to this series of seven in no way shape or form? Ok, this is where we part ways. We are at the fork in the road again.

Click to expand...

Yes I do. Read Revelation 11 where the 7th trumpet sounds...it's the reign of Christ.

Is the rapture at Pentecost?

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