Truth about Calvinism?

crimsonleaf · May 16, 2013

bbbeatt said:
GODS GIFT OF CHOICE

I have set before you life and death... Now CHOOSE life Deuteronomy 30:19

CHOOSE for yourselves this day whom you will serve Joshua 24:15

anyone who CHOOSES to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God James 4:4

Do not envy the violent or CHOOSE any of their ways. Proverbs 3:31

they hated knowledge and did not CHOOSE to fear the Lord Proverbs 1:29

CHOOSE my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold Proverbs 8:10

when he knows enough to reject the wrong and CHOOSE the right Isaiah 7:15

These passages state that man can CHOOSE life or death, to serve God or not, friendship or enmity with God, violent ways or peaceful ways, to fear God or not to fear God, knowledge or gold, right or wrong.

God is not a God of nonsense to command a worm to fly or a rock to swim.

He gave man the ability to choose.

To the Lord I say:

Lord of Heaven and Earth, please reveal yourself to us. Amen

And does the bible say that man is equipped to choose without help from God?

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin,
Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one;
Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one."

bbbeatt · May 16, 2013

Skala said:
Not verbatim, but is such evidence necessary?

How about the simple doctrine that God is omniscient? I could post more scriptural arguments about God being the one who controls when we live and die, and there's verses that speak to His ordaining all of our days "in his book, before there were any", etc.

To say that God doesn't know the destination of every human is to flat out deny His omniscience. That's the territory of open theism. That's not my territory, sorry.

All of the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Ps 139:16

"All of the days set aside for baseball" doesn't mean that all days were set aside for baseball.

States that every day that was ordained for David was written before the first of David's ordained days came to be. Days were ordained. The ordained days began and continued without being altered by actions of man.

God is Sovereign!

However, it doesnt say that God ordained ALL of Davids days.

Please you provide me scripture(s) that say that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual?

If your doctrine is God's doctrine, I want it. If it is not, then it is man's doctrine.

Hammster · May 16, 2013

bbbeatt said:
GODS GIFT OF CHOICE

I have set before you life and death... Now CHOOSE life Deuteronomy 30:19

CHOOSE for yourselves this day whom you will serve Joshua 24:15

anyone who CHOOSES to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God James 4:4

Do not envy the violent or CHOOSE any of their ways. Proverbs 3:31

they hated knowledge and did not CHOOSE to fear the Lord Proverbs 1:29

CHOOSE my instruction instead of silver, knowledge rather than choice gold Proverbs 8:10

when he knows enough to reject the wrong and CHOOSE the right Isaiah 7:15

These passages state that man can CHOOSE life or death, to serve God or not, friendship or enmity with God, violent ways or peaceful ways, to fear God or not to fear God, knowledge or gold, right or wrong.

God is not a God of nonsense to command a worm to fly or a rock to swim.

He gave man the ability to choose.

To the Lord I say:

Lord of Heaven and Earth, please reveal yourself to us. Amen

God gave man the ability to choose. I've never said otherwise. Not sure why you brought it up.

Hammster · May 16, 2013

bbbeatt said:
All of the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be. Ps 139:16

"All of the days set aside for baseball" doesn't mean that all days were set aside for baseball.

States that every day that was ordained for David was written before the first of David's ordained days came to be. Days were ordained. The ordained days began and continued without being altered by actions of man.

God is Sovereign!

However, it doesnt say that God ordained ALL of Davids days.

Please you provide me scripture(s) that say that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual?

If your doctrine is God's doctrine, I want it. If it is not, then it is man's doctrine.

Trying for the third time:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 ESV)

bbbeatt · May 16, 2013

Hammster said:
Trying for the third time:

And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Romans 8:28-30 ESV)

The passage has the word "foreknew" in it. It means he knew before... I knew my wife before I married her. There is no predictive quality to the word. It is past tense. He knew before.

How do you derive that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual out of that?

Hammster · May 16, 2013

bbbeatt said:
The passage has the word "foreknew" in it. It means he knew before... I knew my wife before I married her. There is no predictive quality to the word. It is past tense. He knew before.

How do you derive that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual out of that?

Who did He call? And after you answer everyone (please don't quote Matt 22. It's a different word), tell me who was justified.

bbbeatt · May 16, 2013

Hammster said:
Who did He call? And after you answer everyone (please don't quote Matt 22. It's a different word), tell me who was justified.

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:28-30

Much of the book is dedicated to establishing that we are justified by faith. That is who is justified. Believers.

The passage doesn't define the who, when or purpose of the call. It could mean called "my people" as is the clear meaning of Romans 9:25 Kaleo means call, name.

Those who love him were both called and justified.

How do you derive from the passage that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual?

The subject is a CLASS OF PEOPLE, being those who love God.

How do you derive the following from the passage:
1) Pre-birth foreknowledge
2) pre-birth foreknowledge of eternal destiny
3) pre-birth, foreknowledge of eternal destiny of individuals
4) pre-birth, foreknowledge of eternal destiny of all individuals ?

Not one of these is in the passage.

You can't show foreknowledge of eternal destiny. You can't show eternal destiny of all or any individual. Pre-birth is not in the passage. Eternal life is not in the passage.

How do you derive from the passage that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual?

Hammster · May 16, 2013

Hammster · May 16, 2013

bbbeatt said:
"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. Romans 8:28-30

Much of the book is dedicated to establishing that we are justified by faith. That is who is justified. Believers.

The passage doesn't define the who, when or purpose of the call. It could mean called "my people" as is the clear meaning of Romans 9:25 Kaleo means call, name.

Those who love him were both called and justified.

How do you derive from the passage that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual?

The subject is a CLASS OF PEOPLE, being those who love God.

How do you derive the following from the passage:
1) Pre-birth foreknowledge
2) pre-birth foreknowledge of eternal destiny
3) pre-birth, foreknowledge of eternal destiny of individuals
4) pre-birth, foreknowledge of eternal destiny of all individuals ?

Not one of these is in the passage.

You can't show foreknowledge of eternal destiny. You can't show eternal destiny of all or any individual. Pre-birth is not in the passage. Eternal life is not in the passage.

How do you derive from the passage that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual?

Crud. Browser crashed in the middle of my response. I don't feel like retyping everything. So let's try it this way. Maybe a step by step thing.

Let us focus on this phrase: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

You said earlier that "It means he knew before".

Does He know everyone who has ever lived before? If so, is everyone predestinated (and I'd love to know your usage of that word) to be conformed to the image of His Son?

guuila · May 17, 2013

Well, that was fun.

bbbeatt · May 17, 2013

Hammster said:
Crud. Browser crashed in the middle of my response. I don't feel like retyping everything. So let's try it this way. Maybe a step by step thing.

Let us focus on this phrase: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

You said earlier that "It means he knew before".

Does He know everyone who has ever lived before? If so, is everyone predestinated (and I'd love to know your usage of that word) to be conformed to the image of His Son?

Who does scripture E X P L I C I T L Y STATE that God foreknew. He said to Abraham, ‘Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.’ Acts 3:25 And he said this "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Acts 16:18 Yes, HIS CHURCH will break down the GATES OF HELL, overcome, prevail and... RULE!

GOD EXPLICITLY STATED THAT THERE WOULD BE A PEOPLE THAT WOULD BE HIS!

God foreknew that men would receive his spirit BY FAITH, not by force. And he knew that he would call them by HIS NAME. He will give each of them His Name, a new name (Revelation 3:12, 2:17).

It nowhere states that he knew ALL people who yet were not, as it is impossible to know that which isn't. It is a logical impossibility to know something that doesn't exist. But, one can know that the Marines exist, without knowing a single individual who is a Marine.

God foreknew that HIS SEED would pass into the souls of men. THOSE HE FOREKNEW as a class but not individually! And he PREDESTINED, PREDETERMINED, that they would be LIKE CHRIST. Not by their own efforts, but by his gracious gift of the righteousness of Christ. And those he predestined, he CALLED (possibly called as believers to be like Christ, possibly called to die to self and work out their salvation with fear and trembling, possibly called HIS PEOPLE as in Rom 9:25... it doesn't say which calling). Yes, those he predestined, he also called. Those he called, HE JUSTIFIED. Those he justified, he also GLORIFIED. And I say glory to God, the one and only savior, who predesigned such an amazing destiny for those who would be called by HIS NAME… to those who would believe in the one he would send and has now sent.

To God, I say:
PRAISE TO YOU WHO IS IN ME, AND I IN YOU, FOR WE ARE ONE… I AM CALLED BY YOUR NAME, CONSIDERED A SON AND BROTHER OF CHRIST… PRAISE TO YOU… HOLY FATHER… AMEN!

Hammster · May 17, 2013

bbbeatt said:
Who does scripture E X P L I C I T L Y STATE that God foreknew. He said to Abraham, Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed. Acts 3:25 And he said this "upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." Acts 16:18 Yes, HIS CHURCH will break down the GATES OF HELL, overcome, prevail and... RULE!

GOD EXPLICITLY STATED THAT THERE WOULD BE A PEOPLE THAT WOULD BE HIS!

God foreknew that men would receive his spirit BY FAITH, not by force. And he knew that he would call them by HIS NAME. He will give each of them His Name, a new name (Revelation 3:12, 2:17).

It nowhere states that he knew ALL people who yet were not, as it is impossible to know that which isn't. It is a logical impossibility to know something that doesn't exist. But, one can know that the Marines exist, without knowing a single individual who is a Marine.

God foreknew that HIS SEED would pass into the souls of men. THOSE HE FOREKNEW as a class but not individually! And he PREDESTINED, PREDETERMINED, that they would be LIKE CHRIST. Not by their own efforts, but by his gracious gift of the righteousness of Christ. And those he predestined, he CALLED (possibly called as believers to be like Christ, possibly called to die to self and work out their salvation with fear and trembling, possibly called HIS PEOPLE as in Rom 9:25... it doesn't say which calling). Yes, those he predestined, he also called. Those he called, HE JUSTIFIED. Those he justified, he also GLORIFIED. And I say glory to God, the one and only savior, who predesigned such an amazing destiny for those who would be called by HIS NAME to those who would believe in the one he would send and has now sent.

To God, I say:
PRAISE TO YOU WHO IS IN ME, AND I IN YOU, FOR WE ARE ONE I AM CALLED BY YOUR NAME, CONSIDERED A SON AND BROTHER OF CHRIST PRAISE TO YOU HOLY FATHER AMEN!

So which is it? Is it foreknew (like you knew your wife before you married her), or foreknew (like you knew you'd have a wife sometime in the future)? You've given two different examples.

bbbeatt · May 17, 2013

Hammster said:
So which is it? Is it foreknew (like you knew your wife before you married her), or foreknew (like you knew you'd have a wife sometime in the future)? You've given two different examples.

Do you know that a mutual exchange of ideas is?

It is not two people asking questions, with only one person answering questions. I have answered a number of your questions. In fact, my previous post explained who God foreknew. The time that God has granted me is his... it is precious. You are asking the question I just answered. "God foreknew that HIS SEED would pass into the souls of men. THOSE HE FOREKNEW as a class but not individually!"

It is your turn to answer a question.

How do you derive from the passage that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual?

guuila · May 17, 2013

bbbeatt said:
How do you derive from the passage that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual?

Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,
calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.
(Isaiah 46:8-11 ESV)

bbbeatt · May 17, 2013

griff said:
“Remember this and stand firm,
recall it to mind, you transgressors,
remember the former things of old;
for I am God, and there is no other;
I am God, and there is none like me,
declaring the end from the beginning
and from ancient times things not yet done,
saying, ‘My counsel shall stand,
and I will accomplish all my purpose,’
calling a bird of prey from the east,
the man of my counsel from a far country.
I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass;
I have purposed, and I will do it.
(Isaiah 46:8-11 ESV)

I very much appreciate your quoting that passage with context before and after the "declaring the end from the beginning" text.

The following words state 1) My counsel shall stand, 2) I will accomplish all my purpose 3) calling a bird of prey from the east 4) calling the man of my counsel from a far country 5) I will bring it to pass 6) I have purposed 7) I will do it

Seven times, the Lord declared how he knows the end from the beginning... each time is was because HE WILL PERFORM THE END HE PUBLISHED.

Once announced, it WILL come to past. No power or person, either known or unknown will stop him.

It does not say that God declares the end of EVERY beginning. It does not say that God declares everything that happens IN BETWEEN the beginning and the end.

Thank you for your response. But I am still looking for the answer to this question:

What scripture proves that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual?

I believe that God has put a true task on the shoulders of true believers to be truly accomplished in spirit and in truth, to die to self, to allow HIS SPIRIT to RULE in our hearts, spirits and tongues... to BREAK DOWN THE GATES OF HELL, to flood the darkness with the light... to set the captives free... with true consequences of our faithfulness or slothfulness. We are not playing parts in a play with no real world consequences!

THE BATTLE IS WON ON OUR KNEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you still in the chair or are you on your knees?

Hammster · May 17, 2013

bbbeatt said:
Do you know that a mutual exchange of ideas is?

It is not two people asking questions, with only one person answering questions. I have answered a number of your questions. In fact, my previous post explained who God foreknew. The time that God has granted me is his... it is precious. You are asking the question I just answered. "God foreknew that HIS SEED would pass into the souls of men. THOSE HE FOREKNEW as a class but not individually!"

You also said this:

bbbeatt said:
The passage has the word "foreknew" in it. It means he knew before... I knew my wife before I married her. There is no predictive quality to the word. It is past tense. He knew before.

How do you derive that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual out of that?

I'm just trying to get a straight answer so that we can move on. I responded to the above post, and then you changed answers. If time is precious, then don't waste yours or mine by changing answers.

It is your turn to answer a question.

How do you derive from the passage that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual?

Because those He foreknew He predestined.

guuila · May 17, 2013

bbbeatt said:
It does not say that God declares the end of EVERY beginning. It does not say that God declares everything that happens IN BETWEEN the beginning and the end.

If there is anything in this universe God doesn't know, we have no confidence in knowing that God can keep his promises.

What scripture proves that God has pre-birth foreknowledge of the eternal destiny of every individual?

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (Romans 8:29 ESV)

Obviously those whom he didn't foreknow were not predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, which means they were predestined for hell.

I believe that God has put a true task on the shoulders of true believers to be truly accomplished in spirit and in truth, to die to self, to allow HIS SPIRIT to RULE in our hearts, spirits and tongues... to BREAK DOWN THE GATES OF HELL, to flood the darkness with the light... to set the captives free... with true consequences of our faithfulness or slothfulness. We are not playing parts in a play with no real world consequences!

THE BATTLE IS WON ON OUR KNEES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok.

bbbeatt · May 17, 2013

Hammster said:
You also said this:

I'm just trying to get a straight answer so that we can move on. I responded to the above post, and then you changed answers. If time is precious, then don't waste yours or mine by changing answers.

Because those He foreknew He predestined.

Your question comes back to you. Who did God foreknow... individuals or a class of people? What scripture proves your position?

The scriptures I quoted about the seed, the church and the name PROVE that God foreknew that people would become HIS people and they would have HIS NAME... but those scriptures do not say that he exhaustively knew which INDIVIDUALS would become part of HIS PEOPLE. Those scriptures prove CLASS FOREKNOWLEDGE.

What scriptures prove INDIVIDUAL foreknowledge?

That is the same question I have asked many times without an answer.

It is time for the church to awaken!

guuila · May 17, 2013

bbbeatt said:
It is time for the church to awaken!

I'm drinking a Red Bull... does that count?

Hammster · May 17, 2013

bbbeatt said:
Your question comes back to you. Who did God foreknow... individuals or a class of people? What scripture proves your position?

The scriptures I quoted about the seed, the church and the name PROVE that God foreknew that people would become HIS people and they would have HIS NAME... but those scriptures do not say that he exhaustively knew which INDIVIDUALS would become part of HIS PEOPLE. Those scriptures prove CLASS FOREKNOWLEDGE.

What scriptures prove INDIVIDUAL foreknowledge?

That is the same question I have asked many times without an answer.

It is time for the church to awaken!

Since there's nothing in the text to indicate that it's groups of people, then it's individuals. If its a group, you'll have to be consistent through the chapter. I don't think you can.

Truth about Calvinism?

crimsonleaf

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