For Those of You Who Think Traditionalism is the Answer....

Fantine · May 11, 2013

Saw this article posted on FB--it's from Latino Fox News, and if I didn't see it on FB I never would have seen it (even Anglo Fox News is more than I can deal with most of the time...)

All about Catholicism losing Latinos--and why.

"In the Evangelical church, we find freedom to worship, and with Hispanics, it's in us to be able to love people. Naturally, we just love people. We are hugging people," De Jesus said.

"What I have seen, at least in my own experience, is this encounter with God that we didn't experience in the Catholic Church,” he said. “A system that was so rigid and God seemed so far."

Read more: Switching Sides: Latinos Ditching Catholicism For Evangelical Churches | Fox News Latino

Catholics have the Eucharist....so why do so many go to evangelical churches to "encounter God?"

Andres88 · May 11, 2013

Mass [in general] tends to be very structured, independently on if its the Ordinary Form or the Extraordinary Form. There's a great variety of groups and movements within the Catholic Church that can help out with that personal level outreach that a lot of people long for. Particularly prayer groups; or those churches that create small communities led by a layperson who has been trained in that particular role, and who is accountable to the pastor.

And then there's what you say about the Eucharist. I totally agree with that. Once I saw a funny picture of a separated brother preaching to a Catholic:
"Have you had a personal encounter with Christ Jesus?"
"Oh yes!" answered the Catholic. "I have it every time I receive Him in the Eucharist."
To me it's a matter of understanding. Unless we understand what the Eucharist, the sacraments, the Church is about, we will not value it enough. And if we don't value it enough, then you already know that the possibilities of leaving the Church are much higher.

Gnarwhal · May 11, 2013

His reasons for going to Evangelicalism are exactly why I'm leaving Evangelicalism. I've spent my entire life in the Evangelical church and I've absolutely had enough. What he calls "freedom to worship" I call "irreverent anarchy". It satisfied me through my childhood and teenage years, but now at age 26 it's degenerated to such a horribly cheap experience that I feel more likely to "encounter" God at in a seedy pub than in any event an Evangelical church could cough up.

It hit me in an epiphany, I had just become convinced that Christ deserves more beauty and majesty, something more befitting of who he is. Now, I know we will always fall short in some measure being human beings, but I think an Evangelical concert is a horrible substitution for the dignity of the liturgy and the Eucharist at the Mass.

Vendetta · May 12, 2013

Cogent said:
His reasons for going to Evangelicalism are exactly why I'm leaving Evangelicalism. I've spent my entire life in the Evangelical church and I've absolutely had enough. What he calls "freedom to worship" I call "irreverent anarchy". It satisfied me through my childhood and teenage years, but now at age 26 it's degenerated to such a horribly cheap experience that I feel more likely to "encounter" God at in a seedy pub than in any event an Evangelical church could cough up.

It hit me in an epiphany, I had just become convinced that Christ deserves more beauty and majesty, something more befitting of who he is. Now, I know we will always fall short in some measure being human beings, but I think an Evangelical concert is a horrible substitution for the dignity of the liturgy and the Eucharist at the Mass.

I'll echo that. The emotionalism is what drove me from Protestantism and into borderline-Agnosticism in my late teens. Liturgical Catholicism brought me back at 20.

MKJ · May 12, 2013

The traditionalist movement seems to be focused largely on a sort of North American or Western approach to Catholicism.

It has always been the case that different cultures have different responses to the liturgy, and that stands totally outside the kinds of changes in the mass that happened in the 60s.

If people want to return to a more traditional liturgy - and God knows I think there is something to be said for that - they will have to think carefully about what that means in terms of the wider global community.

Even in the most traditional of traditional liturgies, the Divine Liturgy, you can go to an African congregation and see people who are actually swaying along while they sing the liturgy in a way you would never see in a European setting.

ZaidaBoBaida · May 12, 2013

Catholics have the Eucharist....so why do so many go to evangelical churches to "encounter God?"

__________________

Because they're confusing emotional thrills and chills with encountering God.

The Bible is pretty clear that God speaks in a still small voice. How are you supposed to hear that still small voice if you're jumping around, swinging on the chandeliers, rolling on the floor, and shouting?

Davidnic · May 12, 2013

Sometimes Fantine someone can have an actual encounter with God and not even think they are having it because it is not the encounter they want. Sometimes when people say "encounter with God" they are talking about feelings and emotions and those are not always the best guide. Of course there needs to be the emotional connection...but it can not be the sole guide.

Catholic communities are not always the most welcoming and emotional. This is sad, the ones that are can be amazing. But a large number seem distant at times. This often leads people to seek communities more expressive and see that as an encounter with God.

I think if I have one great criticism of many Parish communities it is the lack of a sense of community. Some have it to an amazing level. Some act like they are punching a clock on Sunday.

This is true of all faiths but I do find it in Catholicism at a more frequent level than in the past. Some of it is due to political divisions on parishioners, some due to the chance in areas from ethnic churches to more multicultural ones that have difficulty building community, and some because of the distance between clergy and laity.

So may things can contribute to the feeling of a lack of an encounter with God. But it happens in liberal as well as traditional parishes.

I think that is it not a fair perception to say that liberal parishes are more welcoming. They may be on the surface. But I have found it in both ends to fairly equal measure. And I have found it deeper and more than at a surface level in the moderate traditional leaning communities that at either extreme.

RomanRite · May 12, 2013

Vendetta said:
I'll echo that. The emotionalism is what drove me from Protestantism and into borderline-Agnosticism in my late teens. Liturgical Catholicism brought me back at 20.

I triple echo that. I'm 16 and converted to Roman Catholicism because of all the heresy in Protestantism such as once saved always saved through a simple prayer and you automatically go to heaven. If that's the case then why is it that when somebody likes me converts to Rome we automatically go to Hell?

Fantine · May 12, 2013

MKJ said:
If people want to return to a more traditional liturgy - and God knows I think there is something to be said for that - they will have to think carefully about what that means in terms of the wider global community.

I think that MKJ's comment most accurately describe the problem.

But in the US, too, the "community" is very different from the community when I was growing up in the 50's and 60's.

When I grew up in the suburbs of NYC, I fully expected to live there for the rest of my life, near my siblings and grandparents, aunts and uncles. I fully expected that the person I married would have one job where he would advance and progress and eventually get a pension (at 55, if he chose to retire at 55).

And so we could all go to Mass and it would be in Latin and the priest would have his back turned to us and we wouldn't socialize and it wouldn't matter. Because we had community.

But when the world changed (for me, it was at 40) and the global economy changed, this wasn't the reality for most Americans anymore. Rural areas died--most kids in rural areas moved far away because there were no jobs in rural areas.

My husband still had a good job...and then he'd be unemployed...and then he'd get another good job...and be unemployed...and get another good job...and be unemployed, and we'd move around the country several times and lose that connection with our families and our long term friends and the friends we'd met in the previous places we'd lived.

And so the Church needed to change because there were families like us disconnected from our support systems--and that was the new reality for most of us.

But we always found that--except here in the South, where it took years for me to really feel comfortable. After getting the cold shoulder for over a year from parishioners, I found my first friendship among Catholics when there was a bulletin ad looking for musicians to form a band for the new Life Teen program...I stayed with that band for five years, and they were the first ones to give me my sense of community.

By that time I would have answered an ad for a heavy metal p&w band, because I was ready to check out the Protestant churches and see if they had friendly people.

And so, when I think about Hispanic immigrants, coming here, sometimes, with nothing more than the clothes on their backs, not a high-paying job with a corporate relocation package, I know that if the churches here practically drove me away, they would be devastated without their own strong ministries.

Wolseley · May 12, 2013

Fantine said:
Catholics have the Eucharist....so why do so many go to evangelical churches to "encounter God?"

Because the liberal wing of the Church has failed to instruct those Catholics properly in what the Catholic Faith really is; instead of teaching them from infancy the meanings of the Eucharist, of the mystery of God the Father, the Redemption of Christ, and the sanctity of the Sacraments, the liberals abandoned them and left them with warm-fuzzy platitudes and felt banners, while the liberals went off and occupied themselves with really "important" things, like agitating for women's ordination, protesting wars, attending "Jesus Seminar" workshops, and throwing blood on nuclear power plants.

That's why.

If anyone causes one of these little ones, who believe in me, to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
----Matthew 18:5

ZaidaBoBaida · May 12, 2013

What's wrong with having different kinds of masses? I don't like the really singie mass, so I go to the mass that has no singing. I don't stomp my feet, pout, and demand that all four of the Sunday morning masses should have no singing because that is what I prefer.

MKJ · May 12, 2013

Wolseley said:
Because the liberal wing of the Church has failed to instruct those Catholics properly in what the Catholic Faith really is; instead of teaching them from infancy the meanings of the Eucharist, of the mystery of God the Father, the Redemption of Christ, and the sanctity of the Sacraments, the liberals abandoned them and left them with warm-fuzzy platitudes and felt banners, while the liberals went off and occupied themselves with really "important" things, like agitating for women's ordination, protesting wars, attending "Jesus Seminar" workshops, and throwing blood on nuclear power plants.

That's why.

If anyone causes one of these little ones, who believe in me, to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea."
----Matthew 18:5

That might be part of it, but I do not think it is the whole reason.

You can tell people all you like what the Eucharist is supposed to be, but if they do not experience the effects of that they may well not believe you.

If the Eucharist is what the Church claims, the faith community should, at least much of the time, be evidence of the effectuality of that. If it is really what they claim, the community should be bound together in practice as well as in some abstract way, and it should be showing the fruits of being one in Christ.

Those who have experienced that in their faith community may be able to manage when they come to a place where that is lacking, because they know it is possible. They may be able to work to improve the situation if others are willing and they get some support.

But those who have not experienced that in their parish community may begin to wonder why the parish down the road, be it evangelical or Orthodox or something else, seems to be showing the results of life in Christ more than their own community. And even those who have had it before will eventually give up if they get no support or interest from others.

It is not just about what is said or taught - there are truth claims all over the place. If people see no evidence of those claims, they will eventually dismiss them as so much hot air.

MKJ · May 12, 2013

ZaidaBoBaida said:
What's wrong with having different kinds of masses? I don't like the really singie mass, so I go to the mass that has no singing. I don't stomp my feet, pout, and demand that all four of the Sunday morning masses should have no singing because that is what I prefer.

I do not think it is a problem with having some variation, but that does not mean that any variation is ok. Some things are just not appropriate, or are not appropriate in some places.

ZaidaBoBaida · May 12, 2013

MKJ said:
I do not think it is a problem with having some variation, but that does not mean that any variation is ok. Some things are just not appropriate, or are not appropriate in some places.

Such as? And who gets to decide that? If something wildly inappropriate was going on the bishop would get involved, right? I think singing The Our Father is inappropriate, but ultimately I don't get to decide that.

Rhamiel · May 12, 2013

Fantine, thank you for bringing this article to our attention
it is very sad that we are loosing people

I do not think this is a "Traditional vs. Modern" issue
I think it is a "nominal vs. devout" issue
for far too long the idea was "go to church on sunday, have your kids go sunday school, don't stab anybody" poof you are a good Christian
the mainline Protestant denominations had the same idea
and it hurt them in the long run too

it is a "secularized" church, we can see symptoms of this among the Left and the Right wings. You mention the cold and mechanical traditionalist church that is spiritually dead
yes, we have those, it is a problem
we also have parishes that have forgotten that they are churches that are supposed to preach the gospel and act more like NGOs
flip sides of the same coin

Gnarwhal · May 12, 2013

Rhamiel said:
Fantine, thank you for bringing this article to our attention
it is very sad that we are loosing people

I do not think this is a "Traditional vs. Modern" issue
I think it is a "nominal vs. devout" issue
for far too long the idea was "go to church on sunday, have your kids go sunday school, don't stab anybody" poof you are a good Christian
the mainline Protestant denominations had the same idea
and it hurt them in the long run too

it is a "secularized" church, we can see symptoms of this among the Left and the Right wings. You mention the cold and mechanical traditionalist church that is spiritually dead
yes, we have those, it is a problem
we also have parishes that have forgotten that they are churches that are supposed to preach the gospel and act more like NGOs
flip sides of the same coin

This is a very accurate and fair assessment. For every "dead" traditionalist congregation, there's at least two or three Evangelical congregations that are dead in other ways (usually by deviating so far from any semblance of Christianity that they look more like some kind of glee club).

I don't know if this is completely relevant to the OP, but a year ago I used to listen to a reformed podcast series called The White Horse Inn, and the hosts (Mike Horton and Dr. Kim Riddlebarger) discussed how Christians were leaving Evangelicalism in droves for a more transcendent form of the faith (or at least worship) and heading for Catholicism, Orthodoxy, Anglicanism, etc.

If anyone's interested I could try to dig up a link, it was kind of eye opening. If nothing else, it confirmed my suspicions that Evangelicalism is ultimately starting to whither.

Rhamiel · May 12, 2013

if you could find that podcast, well that would be awesome

TheOtherHockeyMom · May 12, 2013

Protesting war isn't important? It seems just as important as protesting abortion.

As for encountering God, I've attended every type of Church under the sun in the time from being raised Catholic to returning back to practicing the Catholic faith, and I'm not sure I've ever encountered Him in any way other than what is taught about the Eucharist.

Rhamiel · May 12, 2013

TheOtherHockeyMom said:
Protesting war isn't important? It seems just as important as protesting abortion.

As for encountering God, I've attended every type of Church under the sun in the time from being raised Catholic to returning back to practicing the Catholic faith, and I'm not sure I've ever encountered Him in any way other than what is taught about the Eucharist.

no no that is not what I meant at all
justice is important
but we have to be first and foremost about Jesus Christ
if we live with Him in our hearts, then good works will naturally flow from that

Tallguy88 · May 12, 2013

Cogent said:
His reasons for going to Evangelicalism are exactly why I'm leaving Evangelicalism. I've spent my entire life in the Evangelical church and I've absolutely had enough. What he calls "freedom to worship" I call "irreverent anarchy". It satisfied me through my childhood and teenage years, but now at age 26 it's degenerated to such a horribly cheap experience that I feel more likely to "encounter" God at in a seedy pub than in any event an Evangelical church could cough up.

You will always see God in a seedy pub. But most people fail to recognize Him.

It hit me in an epiphany, I had just become convinced that Christ deserves more beauty and majesty, something more befitting of who he is. Now, I know we will always fall short in some measure being human beings, but I think an Evangelical concert is a horrible substitution for the dignity of the liturgy and the Eucharist at the Mass.

The pendulum swings both ways.

I was raised fundamentalist. Converted to Catholicism and became a "liturgy" worshiper. Didn't like the unstructured style of evangelicals. Now I've mellowed and can see the good points and bad points in both styles.

I don't find either to be inherently superior to the other. They appeal to different people based on culture, personality, and familiarity.

For Those of You Who Think Traditionalism is the Answer....

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