Women Can't Preach

Rubiks said:

I honestly think why Paul said women can't preach had to do with the culture at the time.

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So, we believe that the Bible is divine revelation, the very word of God...but of course we know that God isn't able to surmount the restrictions of Hebrew culture.

Let's think about that proposition for awhile before deciding.

One of the problems in understanding this issue is that protestant churches have lost or rejected much of the ancient and traditional understanding of Church leadership. The episcopos (overseer/bishop), and presbyter(elder/priest) roles were based off of the Old Testament typology of the temple priesthood. Most protestants won't accept this because they don't want to think of them as priests. Its too catholic for protestant tastes

One of the problems (probably the most significant one on this topic) is our notion of authority which is primarily a hierarchical model about authority over, exercising decision making power over people. But that is a non biblical model. Jesus turned the traditional notion of leadership on its head when he pronounced:

Matt 23:8-12 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ. The greatest among you will be your servant. For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. NIV

Mark 9:33-35 They came to Capernaum. When he was in the house, he asked them, "What were you arguing about on the road?" But they kept quiet because on the way they had argued about who was the greatest. Sitting down, Jesus called the Twelve and said, "If anyone wants to be first, he must be the very last, and the servant of all." NIV
Luke 22:24-28 Also a dispute arose among them as to which of them was considered to be greatest. Jesus said to them, "The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who exercise authority over them call themselves Benefactors. But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves. For who is greater, the one who is at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who is at the table? But I am among you as one who serves. NIV
Matt 20:24-28 When the ten heard about this, they were indignant with the two brothers. Jesus called them together and said, "You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." NIV

The Jewish people were looking for a Messiah who conquered. Jesus was the God who died as the basis of His victory.

The NT does not teach general subordination of women to men. There are very reasonable explanations of Paul's 'prohibitive' statements that allow for the consistency of how we see women in both Jesus' ministry and the early church, including Junias as an apostle, and the many women Paul mentions who obviously had significant roles in all aspects of the new communities of believers.

John
NZ

There are very reasonable explanations of Paul's 'prohibitive' statements that allow for the consistency of how we see women in both Jesus' ministry and the early church, including Junias as an apostle, and the many women Paul mentions who obviously had significant roles in all aspects of the new communities of believers.

John
NZ

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probably get a coffee cup thrown at me for this post ..but

Have you ever been in a small church where some one is speaking and some one else pipes up with a comment and then some one else chimes in and then this lady says to that lady what she thinks and that lady over there say to one next to her what she thinks and next minute every one is telling every one else about what happened to them one time and ..... hmm sometimes basic logic may point out ..if not the issue of preaching l certainly the motivation for woman keeping quiet in church lol


ouch dont throw cups ... stop it ..ow

arabianhorselover said:

I agree with standingtall. I have heard some wonderful women pastors, and it seems to me that in this day and age we need all the people preaching that we can get. If a woman wants to do it, and has the ability, then I don't see a problem.

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The problem would be if it doesn't align with Scripture. (And I'm unsure about this topic myself.)

Read something such as Craig Keener Paul, Women and Wives, to see how a well known evangelical biblical scholar exegetes the scriptures on this topic.

John
NZ

This is a really touchy topic.

But God lifts up those who are humble.

Humility is honour.

michaelmynameIs said:

probably get a coffee cup thrown at me for this post ..but

Have you ever been in a small church where some one is speaking and some one else pipes up with a comment and then some one else chimes in and then this lady says to that lady what she thinks and that lady over there say to one next to her what she thinks and next minute every one is telling every one else about what happened to them one time and ..... hmm sometimes basic logic may point out ..if not the issue of preaching l certainly the motivation for woman keeping quiet in church lol


ouch dont throw cups ... stop it ..ow

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Nothing will be thrown.

I know what what you are saying from experience. Just two comments
a) Sitting listening to one person witjout interaction is no better in my opinion. Monologues are not what we should be about.

b) We don't abolish democracy because of some corrupt or incompetent[nt politician, or give away the freedom of the press due to the Murdochs or worse that exist.

We are to judge particulars by broader principles, not reject principles because of some difficulties with lesser details.

John
NZ

Johnnz said:

Nothing will be thrown.

I know what what you are saying from experience. Just two comments
a) Sitting listening to one person witjout interaction is no better in my opinion. Monologues are not what we should be about.

b) We don't abolish democracy because of some corrupt or incompetent[nt politician, or give away the freedom of the press due to the Murdochs or worse that exist.

We are to judge particulars by broader principles, not reject principles because of some difficulties with lesser details.

John
NZ

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totally know what you mean - but also there are times to show respect to a speaker .. especially if that speaker is simply giving a testimony

michaelmynameIs said:

totally know what you mean - but also there are times to show respect to a speaker .. especially if that speaker is simply giving a testimony

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Hi,

No issue with that at all - plain good manners.

John
NZ

Johnnz said:

Hi,

No issue with that at all - plain good manners.

John
NZ

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yes - Good manners : unlike my former comment(now corrected) which was erroneously out of line without intent .

we live and learn

FaithGraceGirl said:

How hard is it for people to understand? If they completely disregard this scripture then what's stoping them from doing the same to the whole Bible?

(33b.) As in all the worshipping assemblies of the saints,

(34.) let the women keep silent in your worshipping assemblies; for it is not turned over to [or allowed] them to speak; on the contrary, let them go on subordinating themselves, as also the law says. (1 Corinthians 14:33b-38 ).

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I think we are twisting some words around. I think this verse is simply confirming that God is a God of order. There are far too many influential women in the Old Testament that held important positions. Esther practically saved the Israelites from the wrath of Haman. There are many stories scattered that would not give this belief credence that they cannot preach as speakers. Now, God gives clear directives for PASTORS:
1 Timothy 3:2, 12
"A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach. . . . Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well."

Motor City Christian said:

I think we are twisting some words around. I think this verse is simply confirming that God is a God of order. There are far too many influential women in the Old Testament that held important positions.

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Esther was clearly under headship, while none of the influential were priests or high priests, which corresponds to NT pastors (although they are never distinctively called priests, as they do not distinctively engage in making sacrifices, but as pastors they are called overseers/elders), to whom obedience is enjoined.

Only in the case of Deborah do we see a women actually exercising authority, but which is in extraordinary circumstances in which the children of Israel had again done evil in the sight of the Lord, (Judges 4:1) and God used a women to the shame of the weak leader Barak and Sisera and, as "the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the Lord shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman." (Judges 4:9)

In the NT the Lord chose zero women apostles, nor is there any real proof of any women pastors, despite the attempts to extrapolate some by those who wrest Scriptures. However, not being the quarterback does not mean God sees you as spiritually inferior, and as having no part in ministry, and women are a integral part of the "team" of Christ in other ways than being pastors and teachers over men. Primary among these is being a wife and mother, (1Tim. 5:14) as well as supporting the ministerial work by prayer and care, (Lk. 8:3; 1Tim. 5:10; Acts 1:14; 16:13) and disciplining other women accordingly. (Titus 2:4,5)

Thus Paul wrote, "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life."
(Philippians 4:3)

youtube.com/watch?v=50Q0z9z6OwE

She is out of God's order, but at least she believes in a head covering!

PeaceByJesus said:

Esther was clearly under headship, while none of the influential were priests or high priests, which corresponds to NT pastors (although they are never distinctively called priests, as they do not distinctively engage in making sacrifices, but as pastors they are called overseers/elders), to whom obedience is enjoined.

Only in the case of Deborah do we see a women actually exercising authority, but which is in extraordinary circumstances in which the children of Israel had again done evil in the sight of the Lord, (Judges 4:1) and God used a women to the shame of the weak leader Barak and Sisera and, as "the journey that thou takest shall not be for thine honour; for the Lord shall sell Sisera into the hand of a woman." (Judges 4:9)

In the NT the Lord chose zero women apostles, nor is there any real proof of any women pastors, despite the attempts to extrapolate some by those who wrest Scriptures. However, not being the quarterback does not mean God sees you as spiritually inferior, and as having no part in ministry, and women are a integral part of the "team" of Christ in other ways than being pastors and teachers over men. Primary among these is being a wife and mother, (1Tim. 5:14) as well as supporting the ministerial work by prayer and care, (Lk. 8:3; 1Tim. 5:10; Acts 1:14; 16:13) and disciplining other women accordingly. (Titus 2:4,5)

Thus Paul wrote, "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life."
(Philippians 4:3)

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Pastors are not priests. There is no intermediaries now between humanity and Jesus our Great High Priest.
Rev 1:5-6 To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father — to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen. NIV

Junias was an apostle. Phoebe was a deacon (diakanos), hidden by the translators

Yokefellow (Fellow workers in modern translations) is a term used by Paul often in relation to people involved on ministry. he used it to refer to women and men.

Mary sitting at Jesus feet was a position reserved for male disciples, hence Martha's objection. One was taught as a disciple to go and teach others. Jesus sent a clear message in his open acceptance of women in more than domestic roles.

Nor must we confuse function with leadership. In the OT there were three major divisions - prophet, holding all, priests, kings and people to account before God's laws, priests, a religious/ceremonial role, and leaders including kings. There was no one 'headship' role amongst Israel that we can equate with a modern pastor and church leadership.

John
NZ

Johnnz said:

Pastors are not priests. There is no intermediaries now between humanity and Jesus our Great High Priest.

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Not in that sense, but it is common in many churches to refer to the presbyter as a priest.

Junias was an apostle. Phoebe was a deacon (diakanos), hidden by the translators

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But only in the generic sense of those words. Junias was not one of the Twelve called personally by Christ nor was Phoebe a deacon as defined and described in the New Testament, although she was indeed a helper/servant.

Asserting that Junias (Rm. 16:7) was an apostle is an argument against women teachers as the Bible nowhere says Junias was an apostle, or even that Junias was a women (Origen referred to Junias as a man (MPG 14: 1289), as did the early church historian Epiphanius) though it probably does refer to a female.

"Being of note among the apostles" does not make them apostles, and if they were notable as apostles it is quite certain we would hear of them more, but there is no reason to think that being of note means anything more than that they were notable for their assistance consistent with the normal role Scripture reveals women filling, such as " Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him [Jesus] of their substance." (Luke 8:3) These also were notable women among the apostles in that they sacrificially ministered unto them in providing funds and help, as were other women who gave worked in giving assistance to Paul in the gospel.

As for Phoebe, (Rm. 16:1) being a deacones does not denote authrity over men, but simply makes her a notable servant of the church in Cenchreae. In the wedding in Cana (John 2:5) the servants were call diakonos, and it is used of serving tables in (Luke 17:8 and Acts 6:2).

Making Junia an apostle and Phoebe into a deacon teaching in authority over men is reading into Scripture was is not there, which is what is necessary for egalitarian eisegesis, as God has only not provided them any real substance for their desired position, in stark contrast to the many explicit texts which uphold male headship. Such as:

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:3)

"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection."But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."For Adam was first formed, then Eve."And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (1 Timothy 2:11-14)

For this is a matter of sound exegesis rather than a problem with women (i am not a leader type person myself).

Albion said:

Not in that sense, but it is common in many churches to refer to the presbyter as a priest.


But only in the generic sense of those words. Junias was not one of the Twelve called personally by Christ nor was Phoebe a deacon as defined and described in the New Testament, although she was indeed a helper/servant.

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They do, wrongly.

Junias was not one of the twelve, but post resurrection others were so designated as she was.

John
NZ

Johnnz said:

They do, wrongly.

Junias was not one of the twelve, but post resurrection others were so designated as she was.

John
NZ

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That remains wishful thinking, and contrary to the clearest teaching on the subject:

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3)

Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church. (1 Corinthians 14:34-35)

Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (1 Timothy 2:11-13)

Also, as re

There was no one 'headship' role amongst Israel that we can equate with a modern pastor and church leadership.

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,

The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. (Matthew 23:2-3)

These were not infallible and beyond reproof, and neither was NT leadership, despite the conditional claims of Roman Catholicism, yet there is a correspondence:

Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you. (Hebrews 13:17)

Johnnz said:

Junias was not one of the twelve, but post resurrection others were so designated as she was.

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She wasn't.

Whom were you thinking of?