Who is "he"?

Perhaps you will need to answer the question presented by the clear emphatic statement concerning Yochanan which the Master did speak in Mark 9:13. Yeshua clearly states IT IS WRITTEN of Elijah that they would do unto him whatsoever they wished and clearly what they did was cast him into prison and then, on the whims of a damsel and her wicked mother, they beheaded him:

Mark 9:13 ASV
13. But I say unto you, that Elijah is come, and they have also done unto him whatsoever they would, even as it is written of him.

Mark 6:21-27 KJV
21. And when a convenient day was come, that Herod on his birthday made a supper to his lords, high captains, and chief estates of Galilee;
22. And when the daughter of the said Herodias came in, and danced, and pleased Herod and them that sat with him, the king said unto the damsel, Ask of me whatsoever thou wilt, and I will give it thee.
23. And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give it thee, unto the half of my kingdom.
24. And she went forth, and said unto her mother, What shall I ask? And she said, The head of John the Baptist.
25. And she came in straightway with haste unto the king, and asked, saying, I will that thou give me by and by in a charger the head of John the Baptist.
26. And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her.
27. And immediately the king sent an executioner, and commanded his head to be brought: and he went and beheaded him in the prison,

Mark 9:13 KJV
13. But I say unto you, That Elias is indeed come, and they have done unto him whatsoever they listed, as it is written of him.

Here are some Tanak clues:

1 Samuel 17:50-51 KJV
50. So David prevailed over the Philistine with a sling and with a stone, and smote the Philistine, and slew him; but there was no sword in the hand of David.
51. Therefore David ran, and stood upon the Philistine, and took his sword, and drew it out of the sheath thereof, and slew him, and cut off [HSN#3772 karath] his head therewith. And when the Philistines saw their champion was dead, they fled.

1 Samuel 31:8-9 KJV
8. And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his three sons fallen in mount Gilboa.
9. And they cut off [HSN#3772 karath] his head, and stripped off his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to publish it in the house of their idols, and among the people.

Where is it WRITTEN of Elijah that they would KARAT him off? Also be aware that no one speaking by the Spirit of the Father says "Anathema Yeshua" (that is to say "excommunicated" or "cut off").

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Yochanan is mashiyach ha-Qowre' with the anointing of Eliyahu.
Yeshua is Nagiyd-Captain-Commander of the Covenant(s).

visionary said:

Some they interpret Daniel 9:27 to say that “he” (meaning the antichrist) will confirm a covenant (a so-called peace treaty) with many for one “week” (a seven-year period).

But others say Daniel 9:27 is about our Messiah who “confirmed the covenant” with MANY during Passover Week!

So who is "he" and can "he" be both? Can Yeshua fulfill it with His first coming, and HaSatan [and his crew] use it again to prove his copy cat work is the real thing? [compare Daniel 9:27 with Daniel 11:31-33.] The anointed one was cut off in Daniel 9:7, to me, is the Messiah. but the "he" referring to the one who causes the sacrifice to cease and desolation would be him, ( I believe the anti christ ) in Daniel 11:31-33.

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Daniel 9:25-27 (CJB)
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.
27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

Mashiach, is of course Yeshua HaMashiach. Whereas the ‘prince’ is referring to satan’s front man (anti-Christ). And ‘people’ is referring his accomplices whether they are Roman soldiers or the nations that come against Israel. The desolator being satan.

Part of the problem in interpreting end time events is that it’s not an easy thing for some MJs to imagine the leaders of Israel being deceived by a Messiah impostor (anti-Christ). So the prince (Eph. 2:2) is satan manifested through the anti-christ and the ‘people’ are his accomplices whether a few men, an army or the nations that rage against Israel. My understanding that when he puts a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering is the beginning of an abomination that causes devastation.

Mark 13:12-15 (CJB)
12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will turn against their parents and have them put to death;
13 and everyone will hate you because of me. But whoever holds out till the end will be delivered.
14 “Now when you see the abomination that causes devastation standing where it ought not to be” (let the reader understand the allusion), “that will be the time for those in Y’hudah to escape to the hills.
15 If someone is on the roof, he must not go down and enter his house to take any of his belongings;

In verse 12 & 13 we get a sense of the fear and religious hatred that has Palestinians, Orthodox Israelites and secular Israelites betraying Messianic Israelites. We get a better picture of what Yeshua meant when He said you must not let your affections for unbelieving relatives and friends (that will betray you) turn your heart away from Yeshua.

Luke 14:26 (CJB)
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father, his mother, his wife, his children, his brothers and his sisters, yes, and his own life besides, he cannot be my talmid.

The Pharisees felt threatened and were perplexed as to whether Yeshua was their long awaited Messiah. The problem with most of us is we fear men more than G-d, and the ruling Pharisees feared Herod more than they feared YHVH.





The above wording in brown should have better read: Arab terrorists and possibly even some Orthodox and secular Israeli extremists betraying Messianic Israelights

Is most everyone in general agreement on above interpretation (see above edited change). If so we all may like to know: Are there any MJs you know that believe Israel's only recourse is to submit/agree to the formation of a Palestinian State (e.g. West Bank) within Israel's ancient borders in order to achieve PEACE with their neighbors.

Judea and Samaria includes 1.5 million Arabs and 360,000 to 400,000 Israeli’s who view themselves as second-class citizens. It’s only right that those Israeli West Bank citizens living in Judea and Samaria should demand sovereignty and strongly voice their opposition to the formation of a Palestinian State peace solution as being surreal. However, apparently the leaders in Tel Aviv and at least a million Israeli citizens living outside of the disputed territories (e.g. Area A and parts of Area B) see the formation of a Palestinian State as the only solution to Peace.

In a future Palestinian State the Arab citizens would make up as much 75-80 percent of the residents in Judea and Samaria. It would not be long before they would cast their vote in Ramallah for a governing parliament just like in Amman.

Between the Mediterranean and the Jordon there can only be full Jewish sovereignty or full Arab sovereignty. The side that prevails will be the side whose national will is stronger and whose political will is wiser. (Dr. Martin Sherman, Israel Institute of Strategic Studies)

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visionary said:

So If I am understanding you correctly... These are the "yet to come"... ... as in we are in the time of "the people of the prince who have yet to come"

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The verses in the book of Mark about making all haste to escape to the hills fits with the abomination of devastation around 70AD with the Temple being destroyed and Israelites fleeing to places like Qumran and Masada.


My take on Daniel 9:25-27 … “the people of a prince yet to come” … that destroys the city, the sanctuary and makes a strong covenant with the leaders for 7 years refers more to the nearness of the end times (tribulation/anti-christ) than to the devastation that occurred leading up to and including 70AD.

Daniel 9:25-27 (CJB)
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.
27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

WOFFED said:

Is most everyone in general agreement on above interpretation (see above edited change).

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WOFFED said:

Daniel 9:25-27 (CJB)
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.
27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”

Mashiach, is of course Yeshua HaMashiach. Whereas the ‘prince’ is referring to satan’s front man (anti-Christ). And ‘people’ is referring his accomplices whether they are Roman soldiers or the nations that come against Israel. The desolator being satan.

Part of the problem in interpreting end time events is that it’s not an easy thing for some MJs to imagine the leaders of Israel being deceived by a Messiah impostor (anti-Christ). So the prince (Eph. 2:2) is satan manifested through the anti-christ and the ‘people’ are his accomplices whether a few men, an army or the nations that rage against Israel. My understanding that when he puts a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering is the beginning of an abomination that causes devastation.

Mark 13:12-15 (CJB)
12 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will turn against their parents and have them put to death;
13 and everyone will hate you because of me. But whoever holds out till the end will be delivered.
14 “Now when you see the abomination that causes devastation standing where it ought not to be” (let the reader understand the allusion), “that will be the time for those in Y’hudah to escape to the hills.
15 If someone is on the roof, he must not go down and enter his house to take any of his belongings;

In verse 12 & 13 we get a sense of the fear and religious hatred that has Palestinians, Orthodox Israelites and secular Israelites betraying Messianic Israelites. We get a better picture of what Yeshua meant when He said you must not let your affections for unbelieving relatives and friends (that will betray you) turn your heart away from Yeshua.

Luke 14:26 (CJB)
If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father, his mother, his wife, his children, his brothers and his sisters, yes, and his own life besides, he cannot be my talmid.

The Pharisees felt threatened and were perplexed as to whether Yeshua was their long awaited Messiah. The problem with most of us is we fear men more than G-d, and the ruling Pharisees feared Herod more than they feared YHVH.

"My righteous right hand" being Yeshua​

The above wording in brown should have better read: Arab terrorists and possibly even some Orthodox and secular Israeli extremists betraying Messianic Israelights

​

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Perhaps "most everyone" but since you put it that way I suppose I should respond. Who anointed the Mishkan with all of its vessels, the Altar with all of its vessels, and Aaron with his sons? It was Moshe that was commanded to do the anointing and Yeshua is "That Prophet" like unto Moshe which was to come and he also is like unto Moshe in that he does the anointing. Even Koresh is called a "mashiach" anointed one, (Yeshayah 45:1) and was ultimately the typology fulfilled in Yochanan the Immerser and forerunner of Messiah. How therefore can I be in agreement with you when your teaching demotes Moshiya the Right Arm of the Salvation of YHWH to a lesser mashiach-anointed one?

Yeshayah 63:3-12
3. I have trodden the winepress alone; and of the peoples there was none with Me; for I will trample them in Mine wrath, and trod them down in My fury; and the juice of their life blood splattered upon My garments, and I stained all My raiment.
4. For Yom Nekam is in Mine heart, and My Shanat Geulah is come.
5. And I looked, and there was none to help; and I was appalled that there was no supporter; therefore Mine own zrowa`-shoulder-arm wrought Salvation for Me; and My wrath, it upheld Me.
6. And I will trample down the nations in My wrath, and make them drunk in My fury, and I will pour out the juice of their life blood down on the earth.
7. I will rehearse the chasadim of Hashem, and the tehillot Hashem, according to all that Hashem hath bestowed upon us, and the great goodness toward the Bais Yisra'el, which He hath bestowed on them according to His rachamim, and according to the multitude of His chasadim.
8. For He said, Surely they are My people, sons that will not be false; so He became their Mowshiya`-Savior.
9. In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the Mal'ak of His presence saved them; in His ahavah and in His mercy He redeemed them; and He lifted them up, and carried them all the days of old.
10. But they rebelled, and grieved His Ruach Hakodesh; therefore He turned against them as an enemy, and He fought against them.
11. Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moshe, Where is He that brought them up out of the sea with the Shepherd of His flock? Where is He that put His Ruach Hakodesh in the midst of them?
12. Who led them at the right hand of Moshe with His glorious zrowa`-shoulder-arm, dividing the waters before them, to make Himself a Shem Olam?

Likewise Nagiyd occurs only three places in Daniel, (Daniel 9:25-26 and 11:22).
How can I agree when you say "nagiyd is antichrist" but the Prophet says Nagiyd Brit:

Daniel 11:22
22. And with the strength of the flood they shall be swept away from before him, and shall be broken; yea, also the Nagiyd Brit.

Luke 22:47
47. And while he yet spoke, behold a multitude, (like a flood) and he that was called Yehuda, one of the twelve, went before them, and drew near unto Yeshua to kiss him.

John 18:2-9
2. And Yehuda also, which betrayed him, knew the place: for Yeshua often resorted there with his talmidim.
3. Yehuda then, having received a band of men and officers from the chief priests and Pharisees, cometh there with lanterns and torches and weapons.
4. Yeshua therefore, knowing all things that should come upon him, went forth, and said unto them, Whom seek ye?
5. They answered him, Yeshua the Nazoraios. Yeshua saith unto them, I am he. And Yehuda also, which betrayed him, stood with them.
6. As soon then as he had said unto them, "I am he", they went backward, and fell to the ground.
7. Then asked he them again, Whom seek ye? And they said, Yeshua the Nazoraios.
8. Yeshua answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way:
9. That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spoke, "Of them which thou hast given me, none have I lost."

Neither can I agree when you claim Moshiya to have been "cut off and have nothing" (Daniel 9:26).

daq said:

Neither can I agree when you claim Moshiya to have been "cut off and have nothing" (Daniel 9:26).

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What makes you think Daniel and Isaiah are referring to Moshiya when it's obvious they (and likewise myself) are referring to Moshiach. Therefore, we do not disagree. We both agree that it was Yeshua Moshiach that was cut off.

Messianic Judaism also uses the title The Messiah in English to indicate the Jew YAHUSHUA HaMoshiyach, who actually is YAHUVEH who became a human, to enable reconciliation between mankind and its Creator. Which He did by taking upon Him the guilt of our sins.


Daniel 9:26 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
26 And after threescore and two heptads, yikaret (will be cut off) Moshiach [Yeshayah 53:8], but not for himself [Yeshayah 53:4-6,8]; and the troops of the coming nagid shall destroy the Ir and the Kodesh (Beis Hamikdash, i.e., 70.C.E.); and the end thereof shall come with a flood, and unto the end there shall be war. Desolations are determined.

Yeshayah 53:4-6 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
4 Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].
5 But hewas pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei’avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach’s) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.

Yeshayah 53:7-8 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a seh (lamb; see Shemot 12:3) to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who of his generation declared? For he was cut off [Daniel 9:26; Vayikra 17:10] out of Eretz Chayyim [this refers to the mot of Moshiach Ben Dovid, see v.12] mipesha ami (for the transgression of my people [Yisroel]) nega (plague cf Ps 91:10) lamo ([fell] on him [i.e., Moshiach; in light of Ps 11:7 and Job 22:2 we are warranted in saying the suffix is a singular, "him," not "them". Cf Gen 9:26-27; Deut 33:2; Isa 44:15; also compare Divrey Hayamim Alef 21:17]).

WOFFED said:

What makes you think Daniel and Isaiah are referring to Moshiya when it's obvious they (and likewise myself) are referring to Moshiach. Therefore, we do not disagree. We both agree that it was Yeshua Moshiach that was cut off.

Messianic Judaism also uses the title The Messiah in English to indicate the Jew YAHUSHUA HaMoshiyach, who actually is YAHUVEH who became a human, to enable reconciliation between mankind and its Creator. Which He did by taking upon Him the guilt of our sins.

Daniel 9:26 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
26 And after threescore and two heptads, yikaret (will be cut off) Moshiach [Yeshayah 53:8], but not for himself [Yeshayah 53:4-6,8]; and the troops of the coming nagid shall destroy the Ir and the Kodesh (Beis Hamikdash, i.e., 70.C.E.); and the end thereof shall come with a flood, and unto the end there shall be war. Desolations are determined.

Yeshayah 53:4-6 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
4 Surely he hath borne our sufferings, and nasah (carried [Vayikra 16:22; Yeshayah 53:12)] our sorrows; yet we did esteem him stricken, [i.e., like a leper is stricken] smitten of G-d, and afflicted [see verse 8 below].
5 But hewas pierced [Yeshayah 51:9; Zecharyah 12:10 Sukkah 52a, Tehillim 22:17 Targum Hashivim] for our transgressions, he was bruised mei’avonoteinu (for our iniquities); the musar (chastisement) (that brought us shalom [Yeshayah 54:10] was upon him [Moshiach]; and at the cost of his (Moshiach’s) chaburah (stripes, lacerations) we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own derech (way; see Prov 16:25); and Hashem hath laid on him [Moshiach] the avon (iniquity, the guilt that separates from G-d) of us all.

Yeshayah 53:7-8 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; he is brought as a seh (lamb; see Shemot 12:3) to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment; and who of his generation declared? For he was cut off [Daniel 9:26; Vayikra 17:10] out of Eretz Chayyim [this refers to the mot of Moshiach Ben Dovid, see v.12] mipesha ami (for the transgression of my people [Yisroel]) nega (plague cf Ps 91:10) lamo ([fell] on him [i.e., Moshiach; in light of Ps 11:7 and Job 22:2 we are warranted in saying the suffix is a singular, "him," not "them". Cf Gen 9:26-27; Deut 33:2; Isa 44:15; also compare Divrey Hayamim Alef 21:17]).

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If you do not understand why we disagree then you do not understand what was posted on the previous page. If you do not understand what was already posted then how will you understand or believe it when it is explained that the translation you have quoted is in error when it references Yeshayah 53:8 in the following manner?

WOFFED-OJB said:

For he was cut off [Daniel 9:26; Vayikra 17:10]

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While "karath" is found in Daniel 9:26 and Leviticus 17:10 the same word is not found in Isaiah 53:8 where the references are placed by the translator. The references to Daniel 9:26 and Vayikra 17:10 are therefore misleading because the words are not the same for "cut off" and have different sets of implications. Perhaps you should look up some of the different usages of the word "gazar" found in the Isaiah passage for yourself to see how it is used in various other contexts, (i.e. Lamentations 3:54).

Isaiah 53:8 KJV
8. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off [HSN#1504 gazar] out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Daniel 9:26a TUA
26. W'achrey hashabu`iymshishiym uwshnayim yikaret [HSN#3772 karath] mashiyach w'eyn low

Leviticus 17:10 KJV
10. And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off [HSN#3772 karath] from among his people.

Likely for the same reason the Septuagint and Acts 8:33 read somewhat differently:

Isaiah 53:8 LXX Septuagint
8 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken away from the earth: because of the iniquities of my people he was led to death.
Esaias

Acts 8:32-33 KJV
32. The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
33. In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

Although "chayyim" appears in the later Masoretic Text of Isaiah 53:8 the Greek states that the "zoe-zao"-life, (Hebrew "chay") of Messiah was "airo"-taken away, (corresponding to the Hebrew "gazar" in this case). This is not the same as to "cut off" ("karath") such as in the literal beheading of Yochanan the Immerser. Likewise you may have noticed that "karath" is found written concerning the Covenant with Abram, (Genesis 15:18) and this perhaps is because it implies the literal cutting of the flesh of sacrificial animals and passing between the pieces in covenant. Gazar seems to be much more general and metaphorical in the sense of "cut down" or "taken away" but we have several Hebrew scholars on board if you desire to look further into the technicalities. There are already two instances posted on the previous page where "karath" is used in association with literal, physical, beheading.

John 3:14-17 (Complete Jewish Bible)
14 Just as Moshe lifted up the serpent in the desert, so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
15 so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only and unique Son, so that everyone who trusts in him may have eternal life, instead of being utterly destroyed.
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but rather so that through him, the world might be saved.

Yochanan 3:14-17 (Orthodox Jewish Bible)
14 And as Moshe lifted up the nachash in the wilderness [Num 21:8-9], so it is necessary for there to be a hagbah (lifting up) of the Ben HaAdam [Ps 22; Isa 53].
15 That everyone having emunah {Gn 15:l-6; Num 14:11; Ex 14:31] in him may have Chayyei Olam [Dan 12:2; Isa 52:13].
16 For Hashem so had ahavah (agape) for the Olam Hazeh that Hashem gave the matanah (gift) [Isa 9:5 (6)] of Hashem’s Ben Yechid [Gn 22:12; Prov 30:4; 8:30} so that whosoever has emunah in him may not be ne’evad (lost, perish, be ruined with destruction), but find Chayyei Olam [Daniel 12:2].
17 For Hashem did not send the Ben HaElohim into the Olam Hazeh that he might judge the Olam Hazeh, but that the Olam Hazeh might be brought to the Geulah (Redemption) of the Olam Haba through him (Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach). [YESHAYAH 53:11]

John 3:14-17 (Hebraic Roots Bible)
14 And even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
15 that everyone believing into Him should not be destroyed, but have everlasting life.
16 For YAHWEH so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life5.
17 For YAHWEH did not send His Son into the world that He might condemn the world, but that the world might have life through Him.

visionary said:

Some they interpret Daniel 9:27 to say that “he” (meaning the antichrist) will confirm a covenant (a so-called peace treaty) with many for one “week” (a seven-year period).

But others say Daniel 9:27 is about our Messiah who “confirmed the covenant” with MANY during Passover Week!

So who is "he" and can "he" be both? Can Yeshua fulfill it with His first coming, and HaSatan [and his crew] use it again to prove his copy cat work is the real thing? [compare Daniel 9:27 with Daniel 11:31-33.] The anointed one was cut off in Daniel 9:7, to me, is the Messiah. but the "he" referring to the one who causes the sacrifice to cease and desolation would be him, ( I believe the anti christ ) in Daniel 11:31-33.

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I believe the desolation was written about in Acts. If I may put forth an alternative interpretation from the information we possess ...

Although the Holy Spirit spoke through some disciples that Paul should not go to Jerusalem (Acts 21:4), Paul disobeyed (Acts 21:15), thus leading to the Temple's desolation. Apparently, it appears from the narrative that Paul brought along his disciple, the uncircumcised Gentile Trophimus, with him to Jerusalem. They went into the Temple, and Trophimus, relying upon Paul's doctrines that "circumcision & uncircumcision is nothing", that the "Temple's middle wall was broken" and that "God does not live in temples built by human hands", entered into the Temple and abominated it (cf Eze 44:7). The Messianic Jews of Asia, who were previously taught by Paul (Acts 21:20,21,28), had rejected Paul's message (2Tim 1:15) and Paul's own claims to apostleship (Rev 2:2), and, after witnessing this act of desolation, and zealous for the Torah (Acts 21:20), fought against him (Acts 22:27+). Paul rejected the "old" and confirmed a "new" Covenant with his people (Dan 9:27), and abominated and desolated the Temple (Dan 9:27) in fulfillment of Daniel's & Messiah's Mt 24 prophecy.

Messiah taught about the abomination of desolation in Mt 24:15+ as happening after His time on earth (Dan 9:26), and would mark a time before the destruction of the Temple (Mt 24:1-3).

netzarim said:

I believe the desolation was written about in Acts. If I may put forth an alternative interpretation from the information we possess ...

Although the Holy Spirit spoke through some disciples that Paul should not go to Jerusalem (Acts 21:4), Paul disobeyed (Acts 21:15), thus leading to the Temple's desolation. Apparently, it appears from the narrative that Paul brought along his disciple, the uncircumcised Gentile Trophimus, with him to Jerusalem. They went into the Temple, and Trophimus, relying upon Paul's doctrines that "circumcision & uncircumcision is nothing", that the "Temple's middle wall was broken" and that "God does not live in temples built by human hands", entered into the Temple and abominated it (cf Eze 44:7). The Messianic Jews of Asia, who were previously taught by Paul (Acts 22:20,21,28), had rejected Paul's message (2Tim 1:15) and Paul's own claims to apostleship (Rev 2:2), and, after witnessing this act of desolation, and zealous for the Torah (Acts 21:20), fought against him (Acts 22:27+). Paul rejected the "old" and confirmed a "new" Covenant with his people (Dan 9:27), and abominated and desolated the Temple (Dan 9:27) in fulfillment of Daniel's & Messiah's Mt 24 prophecy.

Messiah taught about the abomination of desolation in Mt 24:15+ as happening after His time on earth (Dan 9:26), and would mark a time before the destruction of the Temple (Mt 24:1-3).

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Many would reject that from all the Fundie and charasmatic teachings on the 'end times' since the 1970's when the movie 'Left Behind' came out. Two guys have become millionaires working off that first book and have deceived many, many people, with fear mainly.

But can we ignore the scenario in which Yeshua was speaking about this?

1 As he was leaving the temple, one of his disciples said to him, "Look, Rabbi! What massive stones! What magnificent buildings!" 2 "Do you see all these great buildings?" replied Yeshua. "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."

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The subject is the Temple. Yeshua prophecies the destruction of that same temple that the disciples were admiring. Not another temple to come.

3 As Yeshua was sitting on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Shi'mon, Ya'akov, Yochannan,and Andrew asked him privately, 4 "Tell us, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that they are all about to be fulfilled?"

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Here they are sitting across from the Temple on the Mount of Olives which offers a clear view of the Temple and these four ask him about what he just said, regarding the temple being totally destroyed. That same Temple they were looking at.


Yeshua speaks directly to these four disciples, not people in the future.

5 Yeshua said to them: "Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am he,' and will deceive many. 7 When you hear of wars and rumors of wars, do not be alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 8 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be earthquakes in various places, and famines. These are the beginning of birth pains.

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It is clear he is giving instructions to them about the beginning of the end.

9 "You must be on your guard. You will be handed over to the local councils and flogged in the synagogues. On account of me you will stand before governors and kings as witnesses to them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached to all nations. 11 Whenever you are arrested and brought to trial, do not worry beforehand about what to say. Just say whatever is given you at the time, for it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit.

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These instructions were personal to these men. He was warning them of what would happen to them when he left and giving them instruction on what to do and say. Do Christians really believe they will be flogged in synagogues?

12 "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death.

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Believers were persecuted, and we have this from Acts, headed by Saul/ (if you can't lick 'em, join 'em)Paul.

13 All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 "When you see 'the abomination that causes desolation' standing where it does not belong--let the reader understand--then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

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Get outta town!

Here he says to them, when YOU SEE. Of course Gentile teachers won't think they are unclean and can go into the Temple of G-d. How many millions have walked up on the Temple mount today?

I think the problem lies in the way this is presented. There seems to be a disconnect from verse 23 and verse 24. It seems to be a redaction, as the flow at that point is awkward.

Lulav said:

Many would reject that from all the Fundie and charasmatic teachings on the 'end times' since the 1970's when the movie 'Left Behind' came out. Two guys have become millionaires working off that first book and have deceived many, many people, with fear mainly.

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Unfortunately, I confess that I was once deceived by the Left Behind books! That was back in my Baptist days ...

But can we ignore the scenario in which Yeshua was speaking about this? The subject is the Temple. Yeshua prophecies the destruction of that same temple that the disciples were admiring. Not another temple to come. Here they are sitting across from the Temple on the Mount of Olives which offers a clear view of the Temple and these four ask him about what he just said, regarding the temple being totally destroyed. That same Temple they were looking at. Yeshua speaks directly to these four disciples, not people in the future. It is clear he is giving instructions to them about the beginning of the end. These instructions were personal to these men. He was warning them of what would happen to them when he left and giving them instruction on what to do and say. Do Christians really believe they will be flogged in synagogues?Believers were persecuted, and we have this from Acts, headed by Saul/ (if you can't lick 'em, join 'em)Paul. Get outta town! Here he says to them, when YOU SEE. Of course Gentile teachers won't think they are unclean and can go into the Temple of G-d. How many millions have walked up on the Temple mount today?

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I agree that the Mt 24 message was mainly for believers in the era of the apostles after Messiah's ascension, and much of it was warning them about the one who would cause the desolation.

I think the problem lies in the way this is presented. There seems to be a disconnect from verse 23 and verse 24. It seems to be a redaction, as the flow at that point is awkward.

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Howso? I can see vv 23-28 & their relation to the verses before.

I'm sorry , I meant 28-29. As it starts with 'Immediately'. I still think he was speaking to his contemporaries about a soon to come event, else-wise why worry them? why give them instructions?

visionary said:

Some they interpret Daniel 9:27 to say that “he” (meaning the antichrist) will confirm a covenant (a so-called peace treaty) with many for one “week” (a seven-year period).

But others say Daniel 9:27 is about our Messiah who “confirmed the covenant” with MANY during Passover Week!

So who is "he" and can "he" be both? Can Yeshua fulfill it with His first coming, and HaSatan [and his crew] use it again to prove his copy cat work is the real thing? [compare Daniel 9:27 with Daniel 11:31-33.] The anointed one was cut off in Daniel 9:7, to me, is the Messiah. but the "he" referring to the one who causes the sacrifice to cease and desolation would be him, ( I believe the anti christ ) in Daniel 11:31-33.

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We don't know what God purposes to happen.