I believe that Predestination is a false doctrine.

Dec 8, 2011
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I believe that the idea of Predestination is a false and misinterpreted doctrine.
If Predestination is true, then God is an enemy. If Predestination is true, God is the creator of chaos, sin, agony, pain, and misfortune. If God designed what we know as existence with the intention that certain people would not go to heaven per HIS will, He alone is responsible for that, not us. This contradicts the very Gospel of Christ.

If God, in His Glory and Omniscience, planned out the entirety of the universe to an unbreakable T without free will to make our own choices against Him, then He is the reason, not Satan, of all sin and chaos existing in our world today. This completely contradicts scripture on many levels. God Himself would have to be the author of all manner of sorrow and struggle rather than it being a direct result of our sinful nature.

If God created man specifically to sin, and created specific men to sin and not be forgiven, He must be the Devil. If this were true, all sin and death in the world would be personally orchestrated by God Himself, making God the reason for our sin.

The Bible says that Satan, and thus our sin nature because of his deception of the first man and woman, are the reason for sin in our world, not God. So to insinuate that Predestination is true, is to insinuate the Bible contradicts itself and is therefore flawed and false.

Therefore, Predestination must and has to be a false and misinterpreted doctrine.

Verses to back up this claim and idea:

"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man" James 1:13

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinthians 14:33

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." 2 Corinthians 5:21

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" (Sin entered by man, not God)

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." (Perfection insinuates lack of corruption, therefore sinless, and incapable *because of James 1:13* of causing any man to sin)

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever shall believeth in Him, shall not perish, not have eternal life." John 3:16 (God loves the world. How can true love from God be shined upon man if that same God condemned specific people to go to hell?)

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:17 (God sent a Savior, not an enemy, nor sin. He saved us from OUR sin, not His sin)
 
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Tangible

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Predestination to salvation for God's elect (that is, Christ) is inescapable in Scripture.

Predestination to damnation, as taught by the Reformed, is not found in Scripture, but requires that Scripture be subjected to human reason, and requires that we speak where God has not spoken.
 
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Tangible

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I'm referring to the doctrine of Predestination that says God has already decided and specified who would and would not go to heaven, based on His choice, not our free will and choice.
Well, scripture clearly says that we do not choose to be saved, in fact, we cannot choose to be saved. God chooses to save us.

At the same time, scripture does not teach that God creates some people just to fill the ranks of hell. That would be a horrible, evil thing to do.

What scripture teaches is that those who are saved have only God's grace to thank for their salvation. Those who are damned have only themselves to blame.
 
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The Bible says that God has chosen to save us as a human race, not individually. He decided to save us, therefore sent Christ to die for our sins. Having read the Bible, this is the conclusion I have come to. But it is OUR choice to accept that or not. Hence, why we need a Savior.
We are naturally dead in our sins, hostile to God, incapable of understanding spiritual things. How can we choose to believe in the works of Christ alone for our justification?

Much more likely, once made aware of our sinful state, we would choose to attempt to do something to save ourselves, like make a decision, give our heart to Jesus, surrender our lives - all stuff we "have to do" in order to be saved.

What scripture teaches is that God acts to save us individually through his Word, the Gospel of Jesus Christ that is the power of God for salvation. Saving faith comes to us when we hear the Gospel, and when God gives us his free gift of faith we are then capable of responding in joyful belief, praise and worship.

Salvation belongs to our God, not to our ability to make choices.
 
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squint

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I'm referring to the doctrine of Predestination that says God has already decided and specified who would and would not go to heaven, based on His choice, not our free will and choice.

God predestined Satan and devils for the eternal flames.

What's yer beef with that predestination?

God predestined many things to end, such as our life in the flesh on earth. What's a person gonna do about it? Technically we are predestined to be conformed to The Image of Gods Son. We may not have as much of ourselves remaining in that than we think, IF anything. And do you really want to live with yourSELF for all of live long eternity anyway? I will answer NO immediately to that one. I'd bore myself to death, assuredly, and probably everyone else if you turned me loose for an eternity.

God has predestined to permanently set aside the power of death.

God has predestined to permanently set aside evil.

God has predestined that there will be no more pain, sorrow or tears.

I'm sure you have no issues with ANY of those predestined matters.

Predestination is a much more flavorful topic than just thinking it's about God predestining people to hell. It's quite a bit more complex than that simple notion.

s
 
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squint

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The Bible says that God has chosen to save us as a human race, not individually. He decided to save us, therefore sent Christ to die for our sins. Having read the Bible, this is the conclusion I have come to. But it is OUR choice to accept that or not. Hence, why we need a Savior.

I can't accept that conclusion. It's not scriptural.

Paul for example tells us that it is the 'god of this world' who blinds the minds of the unbelievers. It certainly isn't 'just them' there in their own minds, causing unbelief:

2 Corinthians 4:4
In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

It's kinda pointless for me to NOT see the blinded person and the 'god of this world' who blinds them in that factual equation. There are MANY other scriptures that make the same presentation.

And it's equally pointless to think that God could not lift the blindness of every person, just like He did with Saul on the Road to Damascus IF God wanted to do so.

You get the picture, I'm sure.

s
 
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I guess predestination is a bad choice of words for this topic, as indeed it is more flavorful than that simple issue.

But that simple issue is all that I'm referring to, not predestination in it's totality.

But to be more specific, I am simply referring to the belief system that God has chosen that certain men and women won't have the option to choose Christ for themselves, and they are destined to go to hell no matter what, with no way out of that. I believe in God's love and saving grace too much to believe that. I cannot believe a God of love would actually purposely condemn someone to hell without giving him a chance to repent.
 
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squint

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I guess predestination is a bad choice of words for this topic, as indeed it is more flavorful than that simple issue.

But that simple issue is all that I'm referring to, not predestination in it's totality.

But to be more specific, I am simply referring to the belief system that God has chosen that certain men and women won't have the option to choose Christ for themselves, and they are destined to go to hell no matter what, with no way out of that. I believe in God's love and saving grace too much to believe that. I cannot believe a God of love would actually purposely condemn someone to hell without giving him a chance to repent.

I know many believers who are double predestination that do NOT believe that. I am one.

There really are better answers to the equations.

s
 
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squint

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I'm not really sure what you mean. Can you elaborate? What don't you believe?

Here is an accurate picture of predestination in a scriptural nutshell:

Eph. 1:
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Because Satan and devils are a predestined 'exclusion' by specific statements to the above, that is DOUBLE predestination.

In light of the above, I believe every believer who has called upon the Lord shall be saved, even if they are WRONG WRONG WRONG. We are all WRONG. I can't comment on the unsaved in this forum as we are not allowed to discuss the matters here because of censorship, unless one is an RCC or EO member. They can discuss it. People like me can't because of religious censorship.

s
 
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Johnnz

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Here is an accurate picture of predestination in a scriptural nutshell:

Eph. 1:
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Because Satan and devils are a predestined 'exclusion' by specific statements to the above, that is DOUBLE predestination.

In light of the above, I believe every believer who has called upon the Lord shall be saved, even if they are WRONG WRONG WRONG. We are all WRONG. I can't comment on the unsaved in this forum as we are not allowed to discuss the matters here because of censorship, unless one is an RCC or EO member. They can discuss it. People like me can't because of religious censorship.
s

Paul was addressing the church as a community, not individualistically as our natural mindset is today. It was people who from eternity God desired to become part of His family, not as predestined individuals, but a great company "for God so loved the world ", everyone, with the offer to become part of God's eternal purpose.

John
NZ

Jesus stated the gates of Hell will not prevail against his church.
 
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squint

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Paul was addressing the church as a community, not individualistically as our natural mindset is today.

I am not aware of any official and cohesive unit you refer to. Do you understand the theological concept of the 'invisible church?'

It was people who from eternity God desired to become part of His family, not as predestined individuals, but a great company "for God so loved the world ", everyone, with the offer to become part of God's eternal purpose.
I think most here accept the fact that the Gospel is meant to go out into the whole world. Whether or not that equates to a business transaction of 'offer' and 'acceptance' is another matter. Many would not agree that is a valid concept.

Jesus stated the gates of Hell will not prevail against his church.
Agreed. Doesn't mean we aren't in a form of hell right here on earth presently though. It ain't all that great a place sometimes quite honestly.

Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

s
 
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The Bible says that God has chosen to save us as a human race, not individually. He decided to save us, therefore sent Christ to die for our sins. Having read the Bible, this is the conclusion I have come to. But it is OUR choice to accept that or not. Hence, why we need a Savior.

I fully agree.:thumbsup:
 
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Scripture says that it is not God's will that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

Is the scripture lying?

Who falls outside of all?

Wow that is good news, ALL should come to repentance, and since this is God's will, and God's will is ALWAYS done, and mankind cannot foil God's will then EVERYONE will be saved!!! I guess I can stop praying for my lost friends and family and quit supporting missionaries, and quit telling people Jesus saves because everyone will be saved! NONE will perish!!!

Oh yes I need to get a razor blade and remove a number of passages like Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Also Romans 9:22 "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." And John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Since none means none, that means Judas is in heaven....or .......maybe, just maybe you are wrong in your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 and all doesn't always mean 100%.

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squint

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Wow that is good news, ALL should come to repentance, and since this is God's will, and God's will is ALWAYS done, and mankind cannot foil God's will then EVERYONE will be saved!!! I guess I can stop praying for my lost friends and family and quit supporting missionaries, and quit telling people Jesus saves because everyone will be saved! NONE will perish!!!

So, you erect your personally imposed (yeah, I know, ALL scriptural) filter at Heavens Gate?

Who put you in charge of the Gate in the first place?

What makes you think your personally contrived sifter has any validity whatsoever?


Here, take a BIG BITE of this fact of scripture, and then tell me who knows God and is born of God:

1 John 4:
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.
8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Why 'christians' erect personally self contrived BARRIERS to Heaven is most of the time quite ridiculous. But that IS what 'christianity' has become today. Each and every believer has the 'self subscribed' GATE shut and locked at heavens door that others must BE SIFTED THROUGH.

I rather detest the whole lot of those principles in favor of the above. After all IT'S SCRIPTURE too isn't it?

Oh yes I need to get a razor blade and remove a number of passages like Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil." Also Romans 9:22 "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction." And John 17:12 "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled."

Since none means none, that means Judas is in heaven....or .......maybe, just maybe you are wrong in your interpretation of 2 Peter 3:9 and all doesn't always mean 100%.

LST
I'm quite certain that by the time you erect your various 'filters' and 'sifters' to get into heaven you might be the ONLY OCCUPANT.

There are other ways to put these equations together that do FAR LESS DAMAGE to our neighbors. That is a lesson lost on most 'religious' GATE KEEPERS.

enjoy yer space.

squint
 
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